Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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12 May 1941. Salisbury Plain. England.
12 May 1941. Salisbury Plain. England.

Major-General John Crocker’s driver skidded to a halt, barely avoiding himself and his car being crushed by a Valiant I* tank rolling around a blind corner. The tank continued on as if nothing had happened. Crocker hopped out of the car with his aide and climbed onto an embankment where he might be able to see better. The movement of troops and vehicles on a Divisional Exercise was always fraught, but the death of the Divisional CO was probably best avoided.

Crocker had been making his way from a meeting with Brigadier Evelyn Fanshawe, (CO 20th Armoured Brigade) to meet with Brigadier Alex Richardson (CO 26th Armoured Brigade). Along with the 6th Support Group, this was the first full exercise of what was now an almost fully equipped Armoured Division. There were shortages of various things, such as a proper command vehicle for the Division’s CO, but all six armoured regiments were now equipped with Valiant I* tanks, 340 of them.

What was clear from the first two days of the exercise was that the new tank was popular with its crews. The Cavalry Regiments of 26th Armoured Brigade (16/5 Lancers, 17/21 Lancers and 2nd Lothian and Border Horse) had gone to war in Light Tanks, but now felt that they had something they could rely on to go toe to toe with the enemy and win. The Yeomanry Regiments of 20th Armoured Brigade (1st Royal Gloucestershire Hussars, 1st and 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry) had had longer to get used to the Valiant I*, and they had been heavily involved in working out the best use and maintenance of these tanks in the field.

The Division was formed along the fourth iteration of the Armoured Division’s Basic Organisation. The Derbyshire Yeomanry had been added to the Division’s strength as an Armoured Car Regiment. Equipped currently with a mixture of the Daimler Dingo, Scout Carriers and the new Humber Armoured Car, they would be the reconnaissance force for the Division. Each of the Armoured Brigades now had an Infantry Motorised Battalion integrated to the Brigade structure. 10th Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps in 20th Armoured Brigade and 10th Battalion Rifle Brigade joined 26th Armoured Brigade. The 6th Support Group had the 9th Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment as its infantry component, along with the 12th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment, 72nd Anti-Tank Regiment and 51st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment. The 6th Armoured Division had its own integrated Divisional Royal Engineers, consisting of two Field Squadrons (5 & 8) and 144 Field Park Squadron. The Divisional Signals and all the other ancillary services made 6th Armoured Division a force to be reckoned with.

The problem that Crocker had, and in his view, it was a problem he welcomed, was that the Division was being used like a guinea pig in an experiment. The 12th RHA was being equipped with the new ‘Birch’ Self-Propelled Gun, a 25-pdr howitzer on a Valiant I hull. Progress was being made and one full battery was now fully worked up. Likewise, the 51st LAA Regiment was receiving the new Vanguard Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun, a 40mm Bofors gun on a Valiant I hull. Fewer of these were in their possession, but they hoped that by the autumn all the shortfalls would have been made up. The three Infantry Motorised Battalions had also been chosen to test out the new Viking Tracked Personnel Carrier, designed by Vivian Loyd, an expanded and better protected version of the Loyd Carrier. These had been arriving more slowly, and for the most part, the infantry were still being moved around by lorry.

These innovations were playing havoc with the Division’s attempt to be a full readiness. It was clear that any possibility of a German sea-borne invasion was extremely remote. 6th Armoured Division, attached to Eastern Command, would have been one of the most important parts of facing that threat. Now there was time for experimentation. Learning how to use the new tools at their disposal and bringing many of the officers and men up to speed on all the lessons that had been learned from the fighting so far in the war was a large part of this exercise.

The reason that Crocker was moving from one Armoured Brigade HQ to the other was that Brigadier Tristram Lyon-Smith, (CO 6th Support Group) had been declared KIA by the Exercise Umpires following a simulated dive-bombing attack on his HQ. Command and control of the Division was becoming more difficult as the Commanding Officer of the Divisional Signals Regiment had also been declared WIA in the same attack. From the way things were going it was obvious that the Opposing Force were able to listen into the Division’s wireless transmissions and Crocker had called for radio silence. The need to send messages by dispatch rider was slowing down the ability of the Division to react to changes in the situation.

Finding and reaching Brigadier Richardson’s HQ had taken Crocker two hours, during which he had been out of touch. It wouldn’t be long to dark, and with the mess he found once he had been updated on that had happened, the end of the exercise couldn’t come soon enough. It was apparent that there were a lot of problems that still had to be resolved. Crocker had been informed that the Opposing Force had been able to divide his two Armoured Brigades, and the separation meant that the single RHA Regiment couldn’t support both Brigades adequately, even when communications were working. Richardson had split his Infantry Battalion up between the three Armoured Regiments, and it was clear that a single Company of infantry wasn’t strong enough to push back the Opposing Force’s anti-tank gun screen. There would be a lot of head-scratching and post-mortems to see all that could be learned from this exercise. What was worse, General Alan Brooke, Commander-in-Chief Home Force, was overseeing the exercise and no doubt would have a lot to say on how things went.
The_British_Army_in_the_United_Kingdom_1939-45_H13892.jpg

The British Army in the United Kingdom 1939-45. 15-cwt trucks, carriers and motorcycles of a motor battalion in 6th Armoured Division, lined up for an inspection by the King near Brandon in Suffolk, 12 September 1941.
(From here)
 
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Yay, tank testing! Looking forward to seeing where these exercises end up leading.
I wonder if the issue of eavesdropping on the radios will lead to giving tank commanders more radio channels to play with (potential advantage) or if it will encourage more radio-silence tactically (potential disadvantage).

Just a minor quibble:
Brigadier Tristram Lyon-Smith, (CO 6th Support Group) had been declared KIA by the Exercise Umpires following a dive-bombing attack on his HQ
I'd recommend clarifying that the attack was simulated, I had to read it twice to make sure some Stuka hadn't got lucky.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Once again the changes that have occurred ITTL up until now, with the survival of J V Carden, and the production of more and better tanks, is having a major effect on the events of TTL. What was a major diversion of much needed resources from the principal effort, has become a minor problem, easily delete with. The fact that unlike IOTL, the Iraqi revolt has been resolved without casualties, and the regular Iraqi army hasn’t suffered the humiliating result it did IOTL, will for the duration of the war, make Anglo Iraqi relations easier. As for the various Cavalry Brigades, other than the one stuck with hay burners, while they may be deficient in equipment, they have all just received a valuable training experience. Yes their equipment is out of date, for combat against a modern army, and is only really ready for the scrap yard. But against the Iraqi Army of 1941, which has no armoured vehicles of its own and no airforce to assist it, these forces are overwhelming. In 1941 as now the difference between a first world first class army and what is a third world army is massive. In open country, with little or no resource back up the third world force is going to lose, you need close or mountainous country, plus a steady resupply system, to cause a modern army problems. So the various cavalry brigades have had a good training lesson. And once they receive decent modern equipment, will be ready to take their place in the line of battle, in ether the Near East or Far East.

RR.
 
Excellent point from Ramprat, there's a potential with a stronger British hold on Iraq that it could butterfly the shift to Iran/Persia after Iraq kicks them out, which could in turn butterfly the Islamic Revolution in the 70s as the need to 'meddle' in Persian affairs could be severely depressed. This could ironically mean that in keeping Iraq a while longer this timeline could end with British interests still in Iran, even with nationalization of the oil fields. It's a complete shot in the dark but it's a potential future for this timeline (and totally outside the scope of the thread, so I'll leave it as idle speculation).
 
I wonder if, seeing the British show of Strength in Iraq and North Africa, Reza Shah Pahlavi will be a little more circumspect in his actions, and expel the German diplomats as the British request.
 
against the Iraqi Army of 1941, which has no armoured vehicles of its own and no airforce to assist it,

Most sources show that even before any Nazi or Fascist planes were moved to bases in Syria,
the Iraqi armed forces had as many airframes as the RAF had at Habbaniyah i.e. ~ 120
though the availability day to day was probably lower due to weaker servicing etc with ~ 60 per side.

However iOTL that became moot, as the RAF commander ordered a "Bodenplatte" -like attack against Iraqi air fields
as well as hitting the artillery the Iraqis had emplace above the British airfield and transport hubs elsewhere.

This was well before any land reinforcement could possibly arrive
 
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Wasn't the plan to use tanks other than the Valiant like the Cruiser Mk. IV and Crusader as the basis for the self-propelled artillery and self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, using the Meadows engine?

Also I think you forgot to threadmark the latest update.
 
Hmm. The Nigel Hamilton biography of 'Monty' that I have has Monty training 5th Corps in the early part of 1941, and running a four day exercise called 'Binge' in June. (It was followed up in August by another exercise called 'Morebinge' apparently, and then by 'Greatbinge' in November; there was also, in between Morebinge and Greatbinge a 5th & 12th Corps exercise at the end of September to the start of October called 'Bumper'.)
 
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Wasn't the plan to use tanks other than the Valiant like the Cruiser Mk. IV and Crusader as the basis for the self-propelled artillery and self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, using the Meadows engine?

Also I think you forgot to threadmark the latest update.
That is the plan, but the A15 isn't fully in production yet, and they haven't had time to do the design/prototype etc. Eventually they should, as they did OTL. In the meantime, the Valentine OTL gave us the Bishop (a not very successful SPG), so TTL the Valiant gives us the Birch, which hopefully will be good.
Allan
 
With a far more advanced armour program with sensible design being worked on by crews and designers, how long before someone says, The Germans are going to have a new tank with heaps of armour lets use a 3.7 to dismantle it. The 3.7 is not suitable for tank use as is but a different recoil system and ammunition like APBCHE and the Germans are screwed.
 
With a far more advanced armour program with sensible design being worked on by crews and designers, how long before someone says, The Germans are going to have a new tank with heaps of armour lets use a 3.7 to dismantle it. The 3.7 is not suitable for tank use as is but a different recoil system and ammunition like APBCHE and the Germans are screwed.
Hello,

Should circumstances lead to that, shouldn't the 17 pounder gun be in service by then?
 

marathag

Banned
Should circumstances lead to that, shouldn't the 17 pounder gun be in service by then?
The only hope for a better gun, is with Vickers being in better graces with the Army, so you get the 75mm HV gun, and a turret it can fit into, the big OTL sticking point

This 75mm HV would be roughly equal to the US 76mm or later Brit 77mm gun. They just would get it into a tank sooner than those two
 
10 May 1941. Baghdad, Iraq.

The officers and men of 4th Cavalry Brigade were delighted with their first full operation as a mechanised force. They had set off on April 30 from Haifa travelling the 220 miles to RAF Habbaniya in Iraq. The Household Cavalry Regiment (a composite of the Blues and the Life Guards), Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry and North Somerset Yeomanry, like the other two Cavalry Brigades in 1st Cavalry Division, had been working intensively in Palestine to transform themselves into Armoured Brigades. Until enough new tanks arrived from Britain to complete this, the cavalrymen had been using cast off tanks, armoured cars and lorries to familiarise themselves with petrol rather than hay-powered mounts. There had been all sorts of problems between the heat and the difficulties of travelling over desert terrain, but the whole Brigade had reached its objective within a reasonable timeframe.

After the coup d’etat which had brought Rashid Ali to power, his National Defence Government had made quite clear its anti-British feelings and their desire for help from the Germans and Italians. The British had responded by sending the three brigades of 10th Indian Division to Basra, the first, 10th Brigade, arriving on April 18. When Ali had raised objections to this, the new British ambassador, Sir Kinahan Cornwallis, had made it quite clear that the position of His Majesty’s Government (HMG) was that the Treaty of Alliance and Mutual Support with Great Britain, signed in 1930, required Iraq in the event of war to come to Britain’s aid as an ally. It was expected that Iraq was to give all possible aid, including the use of railways, rivers, ports and airfields. The fact was that the Iraqis had, by not declaring war on Italy, failed in their duties under the treaty. Furthermore, since HMG did not in fact recognise the legitimacy of Ali’s government, British and Empire forces would continue to act in accordance with the Treaty’s mandate.

The Iraqis had responded to this at the beginning of May by sending a Brigade of their army to the plateau overlooking RAF Habbaniya. This was clearly intended to intimidate the British into backing down, but had the opposite effect. The RAF aircraft, primarily used as trainers, had been fitted to carry bombs, and had subjected the Iraqi troops to a show of force, dropping leaflets instead of bombs, but making it clear that they were capable of inflicting severe damage on the Iraqi positions. While this was happening, Cornwallis had made it clear to Ali that should Iraqi troops fire on the British, it would immediately be understood to be an act of war, with all the consequences that entailed. A tense few days had followed. Ali and his Government found that while the Germans promised help, the fact that the German Afrika Corps had lost ground to the British army meant that there was little chance that help would come from that direction. Some Luftwaffe elements had arrived in Syria, and the Vichy French had offered to send Ali some spare weapons from their stores. The Italians were making lots of supportive noises but with their setbacks in Libya, Greece and East Africa, there was little they could actually do.

In addition to the arrival of the 10th Indian Infantry Division at Basra, Cornwallis informed Ali that the 1st Cavalry Division, in the process of becoming an Armoured Division, would be undertaking an exercise, moving from Palestine to reinforce RAF Habbaniya. This made it clear to Ali that the British were still in a strong position, stronger than the forces at his command. Informed on 2 May of the arrival of a strong British force including ‘many’ tanks at the pumping station H4 on the Transjordan/Iraqi border, convinced Ali to back down.

The 4th Cavalry Brigade had, by stripping 5th Cavalry Brigade of all their vehicles, been able to arrive at Habbaniya in strength. The Household Cavalry Regiment were operating with two squadrons of Vickers Mark VIb light tanks, and the other two were equipped with a mixture of Bren gun, scout and cavalry carriers. The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry had inherited the 7th Armoured Division’s old A9s. There were enough of these operational to equip two squadrons, the rest of the men were carried in lorries. The North Somerset Yeomanry had one squadron of A10s, all that could be kept running, another of a variety of early marks of the Vickers light tanks and some armoured cars, the rest of men acting as lorried infantry. The journey had been very hard on the tanks and other vehicles, and there was a lot of work to be done in recovering and fixing the breakdowns. But, with various divisional artillery units, and the infantry of the 1st Battalion, the Essex Regiment, also being transported by lorry, the Brigade’s arrival at RAF Habbaniya had been confirmation that the Iraqi army would have stood little or no chance against them.

The 5th Cavalry Brigade remained in Palestine in their counter-insurgency role, while the 6th Cavalry Brigade, in what was probably going to be the British army’s last horse powered expedition, had followed 4th Cavalry Brigade, at a slower pace to Habbaniya. Once they had arrived, the 4th Cavalry Brigade, in a show of force had made the journey to Baghdad, taking control over the various strategic bridges over the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. With elements of the 10th Indian Division advancing up to Nasariya from Basra, Rashid Ali and his supporters realised the game was up and fled for their lives. The Regent, Abdullah, was returned to Baghdad and shortly afterwards, there was a pro-British government in Iraq again.
Interesting to note who 10th Indian Divisions CO was at this time
 
I don't think Stuka has the legs
Hence my confusion, I wouldn't recommend a Heinkel 111 for dive-bombing either.

Anyway, it's been edited now so that particular editorial hiccup is resolved. Funny how I get those 'editor brain' moments and have to ponder if I should say something or let it slide.
 
well the UK did have several tank destroyer designs of their own, the issue is that you need to be a biiiiig vehicle to carry the 3.7 so you'd have to either use one of the nuffield type tank destroyers which is basically leading to the Tortoise, or make something else to carry that big 'ol blat.
 
well the UK did have several tank destroyer designs of their own, the issue is that you need to be a biiiiig vehicle to carry the 3.7 so you'd have to either use one of the nuffield type tank destroyers which is basically leading to the Tortoise, or make something else to carry that big 'ol blat.
Mount it backwards like on the Archer?
 
i believe this is what was done,kinda hard to hide tho.
Dsc02780_-_ram_gun.jpg

bit on the tippy side.prob explains why only 1 was built.
 
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