But tank MG's don't need as high a rate of fire. I don't have any issue with the BESA, but they probably could have replaced the Vickers with a .303 Colt-Browning restricted to something like 5-600rpm? And belt feed may be better than drums inside a tank?
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
- Status
All you need do on a tank MG is belt feed and give it a heavier barrel, its not as if people are having to carry it around. As for rate of fire OTL the BESA had a selectable rate of fire, 800 ( for when needed ) or 500 ( normal )
The MK 2 Browning .303 as sported by the fighter planes of the day was a 10 kg weapon capable of firing 1150 RPM - it was never intended to fire more than 350 (Spitfire/Hurricane) - 1000 (Fulmar) odd rounds in a single flight depending on the aircraft and as you say was intended to be used at altitude in an airstream.
It had a thin barrel and did not enjoy a quick change barrel system - so it would almost certainly overheat very quickly if pressed into a ground role.
Also it would very likely enjoy a considerable amount of servicing and TLC that would have the 'machine spirits' of a Vickers or Bren gun laughing their heads off.
No the BESA was literally the ZB-53 gun - which came in 3 variants - Infantry MMG, Fortress MMG and AFV MMG
It had a belt feed system that was easy to load and barrel change system that was easy to do from inside an AFV (the rear twisted out of the way like the MG 34 allowing the barrel to slide backwards to be replaced with a new one).
The barrel was also heavy with a radiating band of circular radiator vanes (although I think this was dropped for British production?)
Given that it takes about 10 years to develop a new machine gun and given Britain's late start to rearming its army for WW2 (regarding AFVs) then taking the ZB 53/BESA and adopting the 7.92mm Mauser round with its proprietary metal linked belt was the much easier answer regarding British industry's ability to deliver the weapon in a timely manner.
Exactly - like aircraft guns the Vickers K in the hands of 'Special forces' was not expected to be used in the field for long durations and like the aircraft guns would probably enjoy more hours of maintenance than a Bren or Vickers MMG and those types practicing 'ungentlemanly warfare' did not care if the weapons did not last long so long as they lasted long enough for the mission (i.e. drive onto an airfield and shoot up the line of Axis fighter planes and bombers for 5 minutes or shoot your way out of an ambush) and does not enjoy a beasting and loss of privileges like Private Tommy Atkins would if his Bren gun failed an inspection.
Also the high rate of fire was useful when firing the Vickers K from a bouncing jeep at fleeting targets
But only because the man behind the MG was a well trained, motivated SF soldier who understood his weapon and had good fire discipline. You can afford to give delicate bits of Gucci kit to the SF which are in no way Squaddie proof. Any mass issues AFV weapon has to be operable by the lowest common denominator.
marathag
Banned
When Marines had the choice of doing bursts, and just hosing down an incoming Banzai rush, well, they chose to fire till there was no more targets, then worry about shot out barrels later
And that's precisely why the Vickers K is not something you give to regular conscripted troops like the US Marines of the Pacific Campaign in the Second World War. Because if you tried to "hosing down an incoming Banzai rush" you would riddle one end of the line and then be empty and overheated when the other half of the Japanese force overran your position and bayonetted you.
One must also note that the SAS was into hit and run raids as opposed to holding a position against an attack .
marathag
Banned
That didn't happen with the Stingers on Iwo.
The fear of troops using too much Ammunition TO KILL THE RAPIDLY APPROACHING ENEMY had been proven unjust since the Civil War and the first issue of repeaters to the Troops.
Watch the video again. Marines came up with that Stinger, as the regular M1919 were not getting the job done.
Now in a Tank, they have the option of the 'Bears of Kinmen' had on the PLA landings, where the KMT M5 Stuarts, after expending all their ammunition, just did repeated overruns on the PLA troops.
The aircraft gun BSA had a licence for was just a souped-up M1919. Even if they couldn’t just pay Colt to hand them a full set of drawings for that version, it’s not such a complicated process to measure up a standard ground Browning and figure out how much beefier the receiver, barrel and bolt need to be to for a hypothetical Browning MkIII Tank Machine Gun. Because of the operating mechanism used, making the barrel and bolt heavier will also slow the rate of fire back down to the original level.
Fiddly and not free, but seems like it would be cheaper than setting up a whole new production line for metric machine guns, another for special belts, and producing non-standard ammo.
No serious person would have suggested using unmodified aircraft machine guns in tanks.
IIRC there was a dozen assorted versions of the Stinger made - and I think only 6 were on Iwo Jima
Its an interesting gun but with only 6 - 12 guns ever made makes it irrelevant as a weapon system
What is interesting about the M1919 was what the Canadians and then lots of others did to the basic A4 and tank version
Lightened the bolt - giving the thing a much higher ROF - that pretty much it!
Its an interesting gun but with only 6 - 12 guns ever made makes it irrelevant as a weapon system
What is interesting about the M1919 was what the Canadians and then lots of others did to the basic A4 and tank version
Lightened the bolt - giving the thing a much higher ROF - that pretty much it!
Not if you had an arms factory anyway and all the drawings and specifications are yours in exchange for cash.
10 May 1941. Baghdad, Iraq.
allanpcameron
Donor
10 May 1941. Baghdad, Iraq.
The officers and men of 4th Cavalry Brigade were delighted with their first full operation as a mechanised force. They had set off on April 30 from Haifa travelling the 220 miles to RAF Habbaniya in Iraq. The Household Cavalry Regiment (a composite of the Blues and the Life Guards), Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry and North Somerset Yeomanry, like the other two Cavalry Brigades in 1st Cavalry Division, had been working intensively in Palestine to transform themselves into Armoured Brigades. Until enough new tanks arrived from Britain to complete this, the cavalrymen had been using cast off tanks, armoured cars and lorries to familiarise themselves with petrol rather than hay-powered mounts. There had been all sorts of problems between the heat and the difficulties of travelling over desert terrain, but the whole Brigade had reached its objective within a reasonable timeframe.
After the coup d’etat which had brought Rashid Ali to power, his National Defence Government had made quite clear its anti-British feelings and their desire for help from the Germans and Italians. The British had responded by sending the three brigades of 10th Indian Division to Basra, the first, 10th Brigade, arriving on April 18. When Ali had raised objections to this, the new British ambassador, Sir Kinahan Cornwallis, had made it quite clear that the position of His Majesty’s Government (HMG) was that the Treaty of Alliance and Mutual Support with Great Britain, signed in 1930, required Iraq in the event of war to come to Britain’s aid as an ally. It was expected that Iraq was to give all possible aid, including the use of railways, rivers, ports and airfields. The fact was that the Iraqis had, by not declaring war on Italy, failed in their duties under the treaty. Furthermore, since HMG did not in fact recognise the legitimacy of Ali’s government, British and Empire forces would continue to act in accordance with the Treaty’s mandate.
The Iraqis had responded to this at the beginning of May by sending a Brigade of their army to the plateau overlooking RAF Habbaniya. This was clearly intended to intimidate the British into backing down, but had the opposite effect. The RAF aircraft, primarily used as trainers, had been fitted to carry bombs, and had subjected the Iraqi troops to a show of force, dropping leaflets instead of bombs, but making it clear that they were capable of inflicting severe damage on the Iraqi positions. While this was happening, Cornwallis had made it clear to Ali that should Iraqi troops fire on the British, it would immediately be understood to be an act of war, with all the consequences that entailed. A tense few days had followed. Ali and his Government found that while the Germans promised help, the fact that the German Afrika Corps had lost ground to the British army meant that there was little chance that help would come from that direction. Some Luftwaffe elements had arrived in Syria, and the Vichy French had offered to send Ali some spare weapons from their stores. The Italians were making lots of supportive noises but with their setbacks in Libya, Greece and East Africa, there was little they could actually do.
In addition to the arrival of the 10th Indian Infantry Division at Basra, Cornwallis informed Ali that the 1st Cavalry Division, in the process of becoming an Armoured Division, would be undertaking an exercise, moving from Palestine to reinforce RAF Habbaniya. This made it clear to Ali that the British were still in a strong position, stronger than the forces at his command. Informed on 2 May of the arrival of a strong British force including ‘many’ tanks at the pumping station H4 on the Transjordan/Iraqi border, convinced Ali to back down.
The 4th Cavalry Brigade had, by stripping 5th Cavalry Brigade of all their vehicles, been able to arrive at Habbaniya in strength. The Household Cavalry Regiment were operating with two squadrons of Vickers Mark VIb light tanks, and the other two were equipped with a mixture of Bren gun, scout and cavalry carriers. The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry had inherited the 7th Armoured Division’s old A9s. There were enough of these operational to equip two squadrons, the rest of the men were carried in lorries. The North Somerset Yeomanry had one squadron of A10s, all that could be kept running, another of a variety of early marks of the Vickers light tanks and some armoured cars, the rest of men acting as lorried infantry. The journey had been very hard on the tanks and other vehicles, and there was a lot of work to be done in recovering and fixing the breakdowns. But, with various divisional artillery units, and the infantry of the 1st Battalion, the Essex Regiment, also being transported by lorry, the Brigade’s arrival at RAF Habbaniya had been confirmation that the Iraqi army would have stood little or no chance against them.
The 5th Cavalry Brigade remained in Palestine in their counter-insurgency role, while the 6th Cavalry Brigade, in what was probably going to be the British army’s last horse powered expedition, had followed 4th Cavalry Brigade, at a slower pace to Habbaniya. Once they had arrived, the 4th Cavalry Brigade, in a show of force had made the journey to Baghdad, taking control over the various strategic bridges over the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. With elements of the 10th Indian Division advancing up to Nasariya from Basra, Rashid Ali and his supporters realised the game was up and fled for their lives. The Regent, Abdullah, was returned to Baghdad and shortly afterwards, there was a pro-British government in Iraq again.
The officers and men of 4th Cavalry Brigade were delighted with their first full operation as a mechanised force. They had set off on April 30 from Haifa travelling the 220 miles to RAF Habbaniya in Iraq. The Household Cavalry Regiment (a composite of the Blues and the Life Guards), Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry and North Somerset Yeomanry, like the other two Cavalry Brigades in 1st Cavalry Division, had been working intensively in Palestine to transform themselves into Armoured Brigades. Until enough new tanks arrived from Britain to complete this, the cavalrymen had been using cast off tanks, armoured cars and lorries to familiarise themselves with petrol rather than hay-powered mounts. There had been all sorts of problems between the heat and the difficulties of travelling over desert terrain, but the whole Brigade had reached its objective within a reasonable timeframe.
After the coup d’etat which had brought Rashid Ali to power, his National Defence Government had made quite clear its anti-British feelings and their desire for help from the Germans and Italians. The British had responded by sending the three brigades of 10th Indian Division to Basra, the first, 10th Brigade, arriving on April 18. When Ali had raised objections to this, the new British ambassador, Sir Kinahan Cornwallis, had made it quite clear that the position of His Majesty’s Government (HMG) was that the Treaty of Alliance and Mutual Support with Great Britain, signed in 1930, required Iraq in the event of war to come to Britain’s aid as an ally. It was expected that Iraq was to give all possible aid, including the use of railways, rivers, ports and airfields. The fact was that the Iraqis had, by not declaring war on Italy, failed in their duties under the treaty. Furthermore, since HMG did not in fact recognise the legitimacy of Ali’s government, British and Empire forces would continue to act in accordance with the Treaty’s mandate.
The Iraqis had responded to this at the beginning of May by sending a Brigade of their army to the plateau overlooking RAF Habbaniya. This was clearly intended to intimidate the British into backing down, but had the opposite effect. The RAF aircraft, primarily used as trainers, had been fitted to carry bombs, and had subjected the Iraqi troops to a show of force, dropping leaflets instead of bombs, but making it clear that they were capable of inflicting severe damage on the Iraqi positions. While this was happening, Cornwallis had made it clear to Ali that should Iraqi troops fire on the British, it would immediately be understood to be an act of war, with all the consequences that entailed. A tense few days had followed. Ali and his Government found that while the Germans promised help, the fact that the German Afrika Corps had lost ground to the British army meant that there was little chance that help would come from that direction. Some Luftwaffe elements had arrived in Syria, and the Vichy French had offered to send Ali some spare weapons from their stores. The Italians were making lots of supportive noises but with their setbacks in Libya, Greece and East Africa, there was little they could actually do.
In addition to the arrival of the 10th Indian Infantry Division at Basra, Cornwallis informed Ali that the 1st Cavalry Division, in the process of becoming an Armoured Division, would be undertaking an exercise, moving from Palestine to reinforce RAF Habbaniya. This made it clear to Ali that the British were still in a strong position, stronger than the forces at his command. Informed on 2 May of the arrival of a strong British force including ‘many’ tanks at the pumping station H4 on the Transjordan/Iraqi border, convinced Ali to back down.
The 4th Cavalry Brigade had, by stripping 5th Cavalry Brigade of all their vehicles, been able to arrive at Habbaniya in strength. The Household Cavalry Regiment were operating with two squadrons of Vickers Mark VIb light tanks, and the other two were equipped with a mixture of Bren gun, scout and cavalry carriers. The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry had inherited the 7th Armoured Division’s old A9s. There were enough of these operational to equip two squadrons, the rest of the men were carried in lorries. The North Somerset Yeomanry had one squadron of A10s, all that could be kept running, another of a variety of early marks of the Vickers light tanks and some armoured cars, the rest of men acting as lorried infantry. The journey had been very hard on the tanks and other vehicles, and there was a lot of work to be done in recovering and fixing the breakdowns. But, with various divisional artillery units, and the infantry of the 1st Battalion, the Essex Regiment, also being transported by lorry, the Brigade’s arrival at RAF Habbaniya had been confirmation that the Iraqi army would have stood little or no chance against them.
The 5th Cavalry Brigade remained in Palestine in their counter-insurgency role, while the 6th Cavalry Brigade, in what was probably going to be the British army’s last horse powered expedition, had followed 4th Cavalry Brigade, at a slower pace to Habbaniya. Once they had arrived, the 4th Cavalry Brigade, in a show of force had made the journey to Baghdad, taking control over the various strategic bridges over the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. With elements of the 10th Indian Division advancing up to Nasariya from Basra, Rashid Ali and his supporters realised the game was up and fled for their lives. The Regent, Abdullah, was returned to Baghdad and shortly afterwards, there was a pro-British government in Iraq again.
So John Harris doesn't get to write The Thirty Days War. Pity, it's a good read.
allanpcameron
Donor
I gave this a bit of thought over my excellent holiday in Greece. @AlanJWhite back in May gave a pretty good analysis of the changed situation here.
Wavell argued that he couldn't afford a single Battalion to support the RAF in Iraq. Here, because the 7th Armoured Division are re-equipping with Valiant Is, the 1st Cavalry Division is further forward with mechanisation that OTL. Therefore, earlier than OTL, the equivalent of Habforce and Kingcol are able to move, more powerfully. The fact that the RAF used leaflets not bombs on the Iraqi army on May 2 is obviously different, but knew that 4th Cavalry Brigade is on the way possibly affects this. May be it would have been more complex than I've written, but again my premise is that the British are better off for tanks at this point in May 1941 and the threat of Rommel is less without OTL Sunflower. So Ali has a much less hope of getting any kind of real support.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks again everyone for you continued participation in this.
Allan
Wavell argued that he couldn't afford a single Battalion to support the RAF in Iraq. Here, because the 7th Armoured Division are re-equipping with Valiant Is, the 1st Cavalry Division is further forward with mechanisation that OTL. Therefore, earlier than OTL, the equivalent of Habforce and Kingcol are able to move, more powerfully. The fact that the RAF used leaflets not bombs on the Iraqi army on May 2 is obviously different, but knew that 4th Cavalry Brigade is on the way possibly affects this. May be it would have been more complex than I've written, but again my premise is that the British are better off for tanks at this point in May 1941 and the threat of Rommel is less without OTL Sunflower. So Ali has a much less hope of getting any kind of real support.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks again everyone for you continued participation in this.
Allan
allanpcameron
Donor
Not really, it is pretty much the same result, but quicker and bloodless. The issue will be the presence of the Luftwaffe in Vichy Syria. Because OTL Iraq went longer, the Germans were able to do much more than they have here. It might affect the decision to clear out the possibility of Syria being a base for the Luftwaffe to use, in addition to Rhodes.
- Status