Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[allanpcameron]

So what's going on in the US? Seems to me that the British designs will have an effect on the M-3 light and perhaps some modifications to the Sherman where it won't be as high...

It is a good question and will have knock on effects. It was June 41 before the first 36 M2A4 tanks were delivered (32 to UK and 4 to ME). The first M3 (Grant) won't be delivered until July. There was something in a previous update about a Valiant being looked at to help sort out the turret issues, hopefully speeding the Sherman. David Fletcher says "The Americans placed the engine at the back but then led the drive shaft through the fighting compartment to a gearbox and final drive at the front....it also took up a lot of space and caused their tanks to have a higher silhouette." pg 84, The Great Tank Scandal. I don't see that changing.
Allan

 

[kelgar04]

This along with far fewer losses in term of both manpower and equipment in the Greek campaign and subsequent still born Crete and Sonnenblume operations (OTL equal by May 1941 to 1.5 Divisions worth of men lost to all causes and about 5.5 Divisions of heavy equipment - M/T, Field Kitchens, Hospitals, Artillery, command vehicles, mobile STD units etc), as well as the improved and shorter East Africa and Iraq campaign has left Allied forces in a far better condition.

Given the fewer losses in men and materials in Crete, a better than OTL Greek campaign and a quicker Middle east does this mean that also Britain is in better shape financially as well? I know they will still have to spend a lot of money getting stuff from the USA however given they are not currently having to make up for the disaster in Crete and a quicker Middle east campaign to say noting of Rommel getting blunted early on does this mean that the Allies collectively have more money freed up than OTL?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Given the fewer losses in men and materials in Crete, a better than OTL Greek campaign and a quicker Middle east does this mean that also Britain is in better shape financially as well? I know they will still have to spend a lot of money getting stuff from the USA however given they are not currently having to make up for the disaster in Crete and a quicker Middle east campaign to say noting of Rommel getting blunted early on does this mean that the Allies collectively have more money freed up than OTL?

When we talk about Britain financially in WW2 - it is marginally less utterly utterly fucked - but still massively utterly utterly fucked despite the subtle changes in fortune

The likes of me will still be paying for it into this C (OTL 31 December 2006 was the date of the last repayment to the USA for the war debt and post war loans).

 

[kelgar04]

When we talk about Britain financially in WW2 - it is marginally less utterly utterly fucked - but still massively utterly utterly fucked despite the subtle changes in fortune

The likes of me will still be paying for it into this C (OTL 31 December 2006 was the date of the last repayment to the USA for the war debt and post war loans).

Fair point but then again I guess there are only so many ways a forest fire can change.

Still though less lost war material and men means more troops till in the fight and better morale for the people on the home front as well as the soliders on the frontlines. Also given that the RN has taken fewer losses since Crete hasn't happened as it did OTL means that more ships are still afloat and can be sent east.

Though the Bismark will sink HMS Hood as it did OTL.

 

[marathag]

Though the Bismark will sink HMS Hood as it did OTL.

butterfly effect- do both ships leave harbor at the exact same minute as OTL? if not, even 10 seconds time means that that fateful shell will not land in the same place

 

[wietze]

butterfly effect- do both ships leave harbor at the exact same minute as OTL? if not, even 10 seconds time means that that fateful shell will not land in the same place

i think enough has happened to change this timing.

 

[alfredtuomi]

butterfly effect- do both ships leave harbor at the exact same minute as OTL? if not, even 10 seconds time means that that fateful shell will not land in the same place

I believe Hood and POW adjusted their speed to intercept at a certain point(didn t work out as planned) at dawn so might not have any effect.

 

[wietze]

I believe Hood and POW adjusted their speed to intercept at a certain point(didn t work out as planned) at dawn so might not have any effect.

those changes will effects too, so the chances of exactly the same happening is slim. the changes will be small but the shells likely will land in different places. the result might be the same, but may take longer/ or shorter (lucky first hit)

 

[Look More Closely Later]

On Malaya, the Imperial Japanese have spies, observers, and sympathisers in the country, and Tokyo will be getting at least some idea of what they have to face/fight in Malaya if they start something. Unless any British/Commonwealth arrivals are very last minute, Tokyo will retain an option (if they can find them from somewhere else and get them into position) of going in in Malaya with more than what they used in the original timeline if they consider the opposition requires it and they decide to launch an attack.

 

[Winged-One]

Wavell’s request to ship another 500 tanks to the Middle East, to many in the War Office, seemed that it was a lot to ask for when 8th and 9th Armoured Divisions in the Home Force were very short of tanks, even for training. On the other hand, the first quarter of 1941 had seen another improvement in the numbers of tanks being produced by Britain’s workers. 720 tanks had been delivered in three months. The best estimate for the second quarter was that the numbers would increase again to about 1000.

Of these 720 tanks produced in the first quarter of 1941, 220 were Valiant I* cruisers and 90 were A15 Cruisers. There was still a higher proportion of tanks being made that were Infantry Tanks: 108 Matilda II and 280 Valiant I. 32 Mark VII Tetrarch Light tanks were also completed. In addition, deliveries of self-propelled guns based on the Valiant I hull were beginning to be produced, as were advanced prototypes of the A22 Infantry Tank. It was expected that while the numbers of Infantry and Light tanks would remain about the same in the next quarter.

The expected rise of almost 25% production would be primarily as the Nuffield Organisation began to ramp up production of the A15. After much discussion, and secret consultations with both Vickers and the Royal Ordnance, the primary problem besetting the tank was found to be the external mounting of the air cleaners. This meant that the Liberty engine experienced rapid wear and tear, leading to the other problems which were the symptoms, not the cause, of its unreliability. An experiment was made which put concertina air cleaners inside the fighting compartment. From the trials this looked as if it might be a real solution. If Nuffield were prepared to modify the A15, probably having to call it a Mark II, then the tank would be considered capable of being used overseas. Some issues regarding the build quality and, unremarkably, the operational maintenance of a new type, was also brought to Nuffield’s attention. The fact that the A15 tank was still under-gunned and under-protected, without the capacity be upgraded, was problematic, but at least the main design fault could be rectified.

Weren't Vickers producing Valiants armed with the short 6pdr with the 43 calibers long barrel by first quarter 1941 or was that started later in April-May? Either way, hopefully they'll be sent to the Middle East; that's where the fighting is after all... :/

Also hmmm, hopefully they're going to send Matilda II CS's with the howitzer (I think that they have CS versions) to Malaya instead of just the 2pdr versions; they'd almost definitely be more useful as long as they have lots of HE shells. It's not like the armor penetration of the 2pdr is going to be that useful, after all; what few Japanese tanks there might be would easily be vulnerable to even low velocity howitzers.

 

[X Oristos]

On Malaya, the Imperial Japanese have spies, observers, and sympathisers in the country, and Tokyo will be getting at least some idea of what they have to face/fight in Malaya if they start something. Unless any British/Commonwealth arrivals are very last minute, Tokyo will retain an option (if they can find them from somewhere else) of going in in Malaya with more than what they used in the original timeline if they consider the opposition requires it and they decide to launch an attack.

I am under the impression that the Centrifugal Offensive used all the available logistics capacity. I doubt they could have sent more forces in the first wave. Perhaps they could send different divisions, but the same number overall. A small delay in any stage of the offensive would significantly worsen the japanese prospects in Malaya and Java.

 

[Winged-One]

Also, I'm pretty sure there's no real need for a 32pdr/3.7in gun armed tank destroyer, to be honest; the 75mm Vickers HV in the Victor and the 17pdr in various tank destroyers, possible "Victor Fireflies"/"Victor Challengers" should probably be enough against the Germans, especially if we see earlier development of APCR and APDS ammunition. Maybe Carden could suggest saboted 2pdr AP shells to improve the shortened L/43 6pdr's penetration? Or if/when they bore out the 6pdr to make the QF 75mm as a dual-purpose gun.

Also, hopefully Carden will be able to adapt the hull overhanging the tracks like on the Panzer IV to the Victor or possibly even variants of the Valiant to allow a larger turret ring on them for a bigger gun; always hated the small turrets compared to the size of the hull on most WWII British tanks, though it's somewhat better ITTL. Maybe a Cruiser VIII/Challenger version with the 17pdr gun (or bigger?) on the Victor hull, just without much of the compromises of the OTL Challenger due to being based on the more capable Victor compared to the Cromwell. Or maybe just making the turret ring big enough to fit a 17pdr in the Victor's turret like with the Firefly.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

Also, I'm pretty sure there's no real need for a 32pdr/3.7in gun armed tank destroyer, to be honest; the 75mm Vickers HV in the Victor and the 17pdr in various tank destroyers, possible "Victor Fireflies"/"Victor Challengers" should probably be enough against the Germans, especially if we see earlier development of APCR and APDS ammunition.

This. In OTL, with all the UK tank issues, they didn't feel the need to get the 20pdr into action until post war. And ITTL, with an early 75mm in action, potentially a 75mm HV equivalent, and with 17pdr AT guns, what are the drivers for a 32pdr? Bearing in mind that, if necessary, a Victor/Valiant "Firefly"is going to be more effective than OTL version.

 

[GrahamB]

advanced prototypes of the A22 Infantry Tank

Here's hoping they can solve the early issues that made the early Churchill's such dogs OTL.
After re-watching the Armoured Archives video on the A23 proposal, I also wonder if the successes of the Valiant and derivatives might encourage Nuffield to drop the pure-Infantry Tank A22 and forward the shortened, lightened A23 as a Valiant alternative for production as a Heavy Cruiser/Fast Infantry tank. Getting enough 6 pdr. guns for everyone might become the bottleneck on production, perhaps requiring that peculiar triple-mount turret with the Beza, 2 pdr and 3" howitzer mentioned in the video.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

When we talk about Britain financially in WW2 - it is marginally less utterly utterly fucked - but still massively utterly utterly fucked despite the subtle changes in fortune

The likes of me will still be paying for it into this C (OTL 31 December 2006 was the date of the last repayment to the USA for the war debt and post war loans).

A lot depends on the Far East. If they Can hold Malaya and/or Burma, then the Imperial finances will be hugely improved.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

I am under the impression that the Centrifugal Offensive used all the available logistics capacity. I doubt they could have sent more forces in the first wave. Perhaps they could send different divisions, but the same number overall. A small delay in any stage of the offensive would significantly worsen the japanese prospects in Malaya and Java.

The divisions that the Japanese sent to Malaya were the absolute best they had, with the best kit available.

And although there was a large, sophisticated, and concentrated Japanese intelligence network, it did miss quite a bit.
For example, they thought they outnumbered the British, when it was the other way around.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Also an excellent update, the Matilda would be as scary as a Tiger II to the IJA's tanks and I doubt they have a gun that's not a heavy artillery piece that can hurt them. But its only 50 tanks and the troops are still lacking.

Those 50 Matilda's will give the raw troops confidence and allow them to learn what tanks are and aren't able to do. Part of the problem in Malaya was that the raw Indian troops had never seen a tank until the Japanese attacked and panicked at the sight of them.

 

[MattII]

So Malaya is getting tanks, maybe a few more troops, and unless Allan pulls an 'in spite of a nail' for the RN, HMS Formidable probably won't be bombed, or HMS Ark Royal torpedoed, meaning Force Z might well end up with at least one carrier, which could well save them.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Those 50 Matilda's will give the raw troops confidence and allow them to learn what tanks are and aren't able to do. Part of the problem in Malaya was that the raw Indian troops had never seen a tank until the Japanese attacked and panicked at the sight of them.

Battle of Slim River?

Excellent example of a well lead small Armour force (20 tanks) with some motorised support (couple of companies of Infantry and some Engineers) unleashing blitzkrieg - decimated 2 Brigades and unhinged what was left of the defensive plans in Malaya by lunchtime!

One of the things tanks does is place more educated officers and experienced NCOs in country and lots of extra radios as well as 'tank knowledge' (as you say) into the garrison.

One of the reasons those 2 Brigades were routed was that they were defeated in detail due to a lack of trained officers and having lost or not being equipped in the first place with sufficient numbers of radios.

 

[CB13]

those changes will effects too, so the chances of exactly the same happening is slim. the changes will be small but the shells likely will land in different places. the result might be the same, but may take longer/ or shorter (lucky first hit)

May I ask a historical question of those who know more than I do?

Why did the RN send out "hunting parties" of 2 ships against an enemy formation of 2 ships? Why would you try to make it an even fight? Why wouldn't you send out hunting parties of 3-4 ships and then use smaller faster cruisers and fleet destroyers to screen and identify them, then use radio to bring your big ships onto target?