Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Ramp-Rat]

The British are advancing along the North Africa coast much faster ITTL, far faster than they did in ours. This brings with it advantages and disadvantages, it sets the British/Commonwealth forces to be in a much better position in regard to the Germans if they decide to intervene. But it also has the problem that the British are now in an extended logistics position, that could see them facing serious shortages. The British now have to concentrate their efforts on improving their logistics, and that means grabbing the port of Benghazi, and improving it as much as they can. With the Port of Benghazi in British hands, the extended supply line can be shortened, and a major forward series of bases developed. The various minor ports such as Tobruk and Bardia, once the large numbers of Italian POW’S have been evacuated to the Delta, can effectively be abandoned, and only left with a small holding garrison. The holding garrison can be supplied by sea, with their food, fuel and what little military equipment they need, while drawing water from the port supply. This will free up the majority of motor transport to support the advance beyond Benghazi, and reduce the strain on the transport system.

At the same time the troops that have been working to extend the railway, can be transferred to Benghazi. And put to work improving the port and any Italian airfields, along with establishing various base facilities. This will enable the RN to provide a convoy/convoys to Malta that sail under near continuous air cover, thus reliving the present siege. And the RAF can reenforce the air defence of Malta with aircraft flown in from Benghazi, as its only a short hop away. Benghazi can also be used to move the Italian POW’s captured during the fighting in and around Benghazi and the area to the east, back to the delta. It should be noted that between Benghazi and Tripoli a distance of over 1000 km/622 miles there isn’t a significant port at this time. While the British can establish the Inshore squadron out of Benghazi, and transship supplies between larger ships and coastal craft. Without any major ports to unload at, or craft that can be beached, such as the old X-lighters if any still exist, transferring cargo from ship to shore, will present major difficulties. However because of the geography the British if they don’t capture Tripoli, have to advance to a position where they can establish a defence line, between the shore and high ground inland, such as around Buerat. Which will prevent the Italians or Germans if they intervene, from throwing a right hook around any defence line. And force them into a more direct attack on the British positions, thus nullifying the perpetual weakness of most defensive lines in North Africa, a completely open flank.

RR.

 

[Derek Pullem]

If the British can prepare and hold a line South or West of Benghazi then the Italians and Germans have a supply problem too.
In 1943 the Allies closed the much shorter line from Sicily to Tunis. By defending the Brits by themselves can really put the pressure on the line to Tripoli by leveraging their position in Malta.
Its unrealistic for the Brits to think of invading Sicily by themselves (yet) so why not draw more Italians and Germans to Libya and watch them beat themselves out against entrenched positions with meagre supplies.
Why does that sound familiar (enter Monty stage right)?

 

[MattII]

So Britain likely stop in more-or-less the same place as OTL, but the position is going to be much stronger by the sounds.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

11,500 actually. But even getting the Greek Vth division (the local Cretan one) or the cavalry division out of the mainland means any German attack on Crete turns into a bloody ruin. Getting 40-50,000 to Crete? (actually proposed) All the more so

One of the problems the British (and therefore the Greeks) had on Crete was the non (British) proprietary ammunition that the Greeks used

They had over the course of 40+ years ended up with an eclectic array of service rifles and machine guns - many gained from the Austro Hungary, France and weapons captured from the Italians (including those captured during Compass and supplied by the British) but mainly the Mannlicher–Schönauer Y1903/14/30 rifles and Carbines in (mostly) 6.5 x 54mm the other rifles being in (and not limited to) 8mm Lebel and 8 mm Mannlicher (for some of the older Austrian Guns).

And given the nature of the defeat and evacuation from the mainland this mix of weapons was true of the Greek forces that ended up on the Island.

Virtually none of the ammunition for the rifles and handful of machine guns, OTL just 52 LMGs and MMGs, (another eclectic mix of guns) were listed as being available to the Greek Military on the Island at the time of the invasion, used ammunition that was available from the the British, with only those captured from the Italians having any ammo and much of that had already been sent to the Greek Army on the Mainland.

Therefore on average Greek riflemen had just 50 rounds a man - and in some cases some units such as training units had no ammunition at all and because of the lack of bullets little to no firearms training could be undertaken during the period between the fall of Greece and the invasion of Crete.

The Greek forces were little more than a rifle armed militia as far as the then modern army's went, with nothing in the way of heavier equipment.

Now if per chance (and probably a too perfect answer) is that less captured equipment, weapons and ammo from Compass was sent to Greece ITTL and we might see it instead being sent to Crete to temporally rearm the main units of the Greek Army that was evacuated and a 'modern' Brigade or 2 with some artillery might very well be organised from those Greek units until such a time as British and US production can furnish them with better British/US equipment.

But that is unlikely to be for some time.

 

[Derwit]

I think that getting to Beda Fomm sooner is potentially a bad thing for the British. Yes the forces in Libya may be better supplied, prepaired and armoured when/if the Germans attack. But the downside is that the calls for more to Greece become louder. Certainly less Italian material will be retained by the British with more possibly being sent to Greece (or as others have mentioned elsewhere).

With a handful of A11's somewhere in Egypt these are either going to be sent to Create or toe East Africa (please let it be Create POM POM POOOM!). There handful of A11's possibly with some of the less vital Matilda II's arriving will help finish off East Africa more quickly for less losses. Allowing these forecasts to be redeployed. With Cunningham not needed in the Desert due to the OTL capture of O'Conner (hopefully avoided in this TL), he along with some of his forces can be redeployed (possibly to a place currently not being mentioned in this TL). Cunningham was out of his depth against Rommel but a somewhat slower infantry centred campaign would be much more suitable to his not inconsiderable skills.

ITTL is the German General in North Africa Rommel? He hasn't had the successful BoF he had OTL. His division got mauled much worse by those awesome A11's. ITTL he might still be a favourite of Hitler and might get a panzer corps in Russia but perhaps a more successful panzer commander might be preferred. Especially as the British have new and according to the Italians and what their intelegence types superior tanks which mean that a more defensive posture is neccessary.

 

[MarcH]

Another good update there. Compass has come to an end just over two weeks ahead of OTL. Where does that leave us.

Well Britain is in a far stronger position over OTL, the intact capture of Benghazi as well as the supplies, along with the capture of Tobruk allow XIII corps to receive quite a lot of supplies. Supplies that will go into another advance, an advance that O'Connor will already be thinking about. Greece isn't a major issue or consideration for the British right now for one main reason. Metaxas is still alive and he wont hear of it. Now if we assume events surrounding the death of Metaxas and the subsequent decision to move forces to Greece play out pretty much as OTL then we have a month to play with. That month can be broken down into three parts or phases, these are

1. The next 4 days leading up to the Death of Metaxas
2. The 10-21 days following the Death of Metaxas
3. The the 7-14 days where an intervention in Greece starts to become not only a possibility but ultimately a certainty.

Phase 1,
Metaxas still being alive makes the prospect of any British troops being allowed onto mainland Greece highly unlikely at best. That being a given what are the British going to be getting up too. Well firstly they are going to be resting, repairing, resupplying and re-equipping. This is a given, XIII corps needs this little break, that does not mean O'Connor will be sat doing nothing however, he is going to be desperate to get the advance started again and will be asking for all the Supplies, Trucks, Tanks and Men he can get to bring his force back up to strength. London will be all to willing to play ball right now, they have a winning General and will back him to the hilt plus he will be getting backing from the Navy. If O'Connor can capture Italian North Africa then their job is made a lot easier. In addition the prospect of being able to park British and Free French troops on the border of French North Africa will appeal to the politicians. Nothing too provocative mind but a little gentle pressure and the hope they can help persuade the colonies to change sides at some point in the future. Every sign will point to more North African adventures for the British, then Metaxas dies and the situation suddenly becomes less sure. This leads us onto...

Phase 2,
Metaxas dying won't instantly change much. Yes Churchill will get giddy about the prospect of a Balkan front but for now the wheels set in motion over the last few days will keep on turning. It won't be for a few days to a week before the prospect of the talks that led to the OTL decision to send troops become a reality. Even then the prospect of talks does not mean things will change so for the first couple of weeks post Metaxas's death nothing much will change and O'Connor will continue to plan for an advance. Then as the talks approach things might well get looked at. That leads us to

Phase 3,
This is the timeframe a Greek adventure becomes more likely, the thing is it will only be confirmed on the 22nd of February which is a month after O'Connor stopped. As soon as the decision is made that Britain is sending troops the situation does change somewhat. The thing is how far along will O'Connor be in his preparations. That could well be the determining factor in the events that follow. Given that O'Connor will have had at least two weeks of support for a continued advance and maybe up to three and a half weeks things could be quite far advanced. The resupply of XIII corps from Tobruk and more importantly Benghazi will have allowed a lot of equipment through. Where exactly O'Connor is in terms of preparations will affect what happens next.
If O'Connor is still in the building up phase then he might be in trouble. The temptation to send his forces to Greece will be quite high, the thing is it might me more difficult than first imagined. Getting permission to redeploy the Australian troops will probably be far trickier ITTL as they have successfully fought together. Secondly a lot of the supplies put together for the continued, now delayed advance will likely have to be sent to Greece to support the troops there. That is a big task and will delay the redeployment somewhat. In addition the fact that so much time and preparation will have gone into supporting the proposed advance that it will have likely gained a momentum all it's own. Pulling the breaks will take a brave man, particularly when ITTL Britain has other forces to send to Greece in the meantime.
There is always the possibility that O'Connor has already started to move. This could come in a few different forms, the first is a reconnaissance in force type advance with a part of his force in preparation for the main body of XIII corps to follow on. The second is a full scale advance by the whole of XIII corps, though this likely comes in two forms. The First is O'Connor moving early and taking the risk that he can capitalise on the likely poor moral of the Italians by applying pressure as soon as possible. It will be a risk but one he may well feel is worth it. The other way is that he gets wind of the possibility some of his forces may be redeployed so sets off early to try and prevent that from happening. All of these potential scenarios probably mean that no troops are re-deployed from O'Connor. As soon as he is on the move you would have to order a halt and it would be a very brave man to do that. Particularly if there are forces in Britain that can be sent in the interim. Politically it makes no sense to stop O'Connor either, if things go badly in Greece but O'Connor wins then your fine, if things go badly in Greece and North Africa then yes you may be in some trouble but you supported a winning General so you are probably covered. The alternative though is that if Greece is held that plays well politically but if North Africa goes badly then that isn't good and if both go Badly you are really leaving yourself open if you pulled troops from North Africa.
Yes that happened in OTL and Churchill was fine but the situation is different enough here to make the considerations different.

Overall that is the general picture looking forward over the next four weeks. There are some gimmies for Wavell right of the bat, sending the A11's to Crete is an easy decision to stiffen the defence there without needing to send more troops. If also puts them in an ideal place for them, you realistically can't support them in a major engagement anymore as they are long out of production but garrison duty is perfect.
Thoughts?
Thoughts everyone.

 

[MattII]

Another good update there. Compass has come to an end just over two weeks ahead of OTL. Where does that leave us.

Well Britain is in a far stronger position over OTL, the intact capture of Benghazi as well as the supplies, along with the capture of Tobruk allow XIII corps to receive quite a lot of supplies. Supplies that will go into another advance, an advance that O'Connor will already be thinking about. Greece isn't a major issue or consideration for the British right now for one main reason. Metaxas is still alive and he wont hear of it. Now if we assume events surrounding the death of Metaxas and the subsequent decision to move forces to Greece play out pretty much as OTL then we have a month to play with. That month can be broken down into three parts or phases, these are

1. The next 4 days leading up to the Death of Metaxas
2. The 10-21 days following the Death of Metaxas
3. The the 7-14 days where an intervention in Greece starts to become not only a possibility but ultimately a certainty.

Phase 1,
Metaxas still being alive makes the prospect of any British troops being allowed onto mainland Greece highly unlikely at best. That being a given what are the British going to be getting up too. Well firstly they are going to be resting, repairing, resupplying and re-equipping. This is a given, XIII corps needs this little break, that does not mean O'Connor will be sat doing nothing however, he is going to be desperate to get the advance started again and will be asking for all the Supplies, Trucks, Tanks and Men he can get to bring his force back up to strength. London will be all to willing to play ball right now, they have a winning General and will back him to the hilt plus he will be getting backing from the Navy. If O'Connor can capture Italian North Africa then their job is made a lot easier. In addition the prospect of being able to park British and Free French troops on the border of French North Africa will appeal to the politicians. Nothing too provocative mind but a little gentle pressure and the hope they can help persuade the colonies to change sides at some point in the future. Every sign will point to more North African adventures for the British, then Metaxas dies and the situation suddenly becomes less sure. This leads us onto...

Phase 2,
Metaxas dying won't instantly change much. Yes Churchill will get giddy about the prospect of a Balkan front but for now the wheels set in motion over the last few days will keep on turning. It won't be for a few days to a week before the prospect of the talks that led to the OTL decision to send troops become a reality. Even then the prospect of talks does not mean things will change so for the first couple of weeks post Metaxas's death nothing much will change and O'Connor will continue to plan for an advance. Then as the talks approach things might well get looked at. That leads us to

Phase 3,
This is the timeframe a Greek adventure becomes more likely, the thing is it will only be confirmed on the 22nd of February which is a month after O'Connor stopped. As soon as the decision is made that Britain is sending troops the situation does change somewhat. The thing is how far along will O'Connor be in his preparations. That could well be the determining factor in the events that follow. Given that O'Connor will have had at least two weeks of support for a continued advance and maybe up to three and a half weeks things could be quite far advanced. The resupply of XIII corps from Tobruk and more importantly Benghazi will have allowed a lot of equipment through. Where exactly O'Connor is in terms of preparations will affect what happens next.
If O'Connor is still in the building up phase then he might be in trouble. The temptation to send his forces to Greece will be quite high, the thing is it might me more difficult than first imagined. Getting permission to redeploy the Australian troops will probably be far trickier ITTL as they have successfully fought together. Secondly a lot of the supplies put together for the continued, now delayed advance will likely have to be sent to Greece to support the troops there. That is a big task and will delay the redeployment somewhat. In addition the fact that so much time and preparation will have gone into supporting the proposed advance that it will have likely gained a momentum all it's own. Pulling the breaks will take a brave man, particularly when ITTL Britain has other forces to send to Greece in the meantime.
There is always the possibility that O'Connor has already started to move. This could come in a few different forms, the first is a reconnaissance in force type advance with a part of his force in preparation for the main body of XIII corps to follow on. The second is a full scale advance by the whole of XIII corps, though this likely comes in two forms. The First is O'Connor moving early and taking the risk that he can capitalise on the likely poor moral of the Italians by applying pressure as soon as possible. It will be a risk but one he may well feel is worth it. The other way is that he gets wind of the possibility some of his forces may be redeployed so sets off early to try and prevent that from happening. All of these potential scenarios probably mean that no troops are re-deployed from O'Connor. As soon as he is on the move you would have to order a halt and it would be a very brave man to do that. Particularly if there are forces in Britain that can be sent in the interim. Politically it makes no sense to stop O'Connor either, if things go badly in Greece but O'Connor wins then your fine, if things go badly in Greece and North Africa then yes you may be in some trouble but you supported a winning General so you are probably covered. The alternative though is that if Greece is held that plays well politically but if North Africa goes badly then that isn't good and if both go Badly you are really leaving yourself open if you pulled troops from North Africa.
Yes that happened in OTL and Churchill was fine but the situation is different enough here to make the considerations different.

Overall that is the general picture looking forward over the next four weeks. There are some gimmies for Wavell right of the bat, sending the A11's to Crete is an easy decision to stiffen the defence there without needing to send more troops. If also puts them in an ideal place for them, you realistically can't support them in a major engagement anymore as they are long out of production but garrison duty is perfect.
Thoughts?
Thoughts everyone.

Makes sense to me. Not sure how quickly a second offensive could kick off, so I'm inclined to think it would be more of a reconnaissance-in-force drive, than an actual advance. Mind you, with the Valiants, any reconnaissance can become an advance fairly quickly.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

At the same time the troops that have been working to extend the railway, can be transferred to Benghazi.

I don't know. If you can get rail extended out of each of those ports, that will hugely help logistics. Offer jobs to the locals, point out that whoever wins, better infrastructure will make their lives better after the war...
You've got a bunch of Italian civilians who need to eat, and might be enticed into working on long term infrastructure....

 

[MattII]

I don't know. If you can get rail extended out of each of those ports, that will hugely help logistics. Offer jobs to the locals, point out that whoever wins, better infrastructure will make their lives better after the war...
You've got a bunch of Italian civilians who need to eat, and might be enticed into working on long term infrastructure....

That's a good idea.

 

[kelgar04]

I don't know. If you can get rail extended out of each of those ports, that will hugely help logistics. Offer jobs to the locals, point out that whoever wins, better infrastructure will make their lives better after the war...
You've got a bunch of Italian civilians who need to eat, and might be enticed into working on long term infrastructure....

Iron and steel are easy enough to secure to do this just get it from India.

 

[MarcH]

Forgot to add what I think the likely course of events will be, so here you go.

London wont need any convincing to let O'Connor carry on. They have no other distractions for a couple of weeks and even then we only know about those, they can't be predicted by London. They will also want to capitalise on the good news and get some more good news going. There is literally no cost to continuing the support of O'Connor. My guess would be O'Connor will want all the A9's and A10's gone and replaced with Valiant I*'s if that can be managed. In addition I think Menzies will want the 9th Australian sent to join the 6th and 7th as soon as possible. They went in early March OTL so bringing it forward a month should be possible, that gives an Australian corps which plays well in the press at home and even if it does not happen any earlier than OTL they will still go and join the other divisions. Much beyond that though not much will happen. Yes replacement troops will be sent as well as supplies and plenty of trucks but that is about it.
The problems will start to appear when Metaxas dies. A lot of what I suggest will happen can be hashed out in a day or two and whilst not much may have happened beyond orders to move and perhaps some loading of ships it will all be in hand. The death of Metaxas does raise the possibility of a Greek intervention becoming a reality but it will be too remote to warrant any major changes. Some troops that might have been considered for O'Connor may be held back or sent to Alexandria instead just in case but not much changes, a watchful eye is going to be kept though.
After a couple of weeks and especially when the all clear is given for a Greek intervention things will be looked at again then. I do think it will be too late after three and a half to four weeks to stop O'Connor but his forces wont be as strong as he hoped. That will be particularly true as I can not see any Australian troops being sent to Greece ITTL. The thing is Britain has a way out. First Army Tank Brigade is up to strength and has been for a few months, I would not be surprised if there are one or two more full strength tank Brigades in Britain, they along with some Infantry brigades will make a decent force to send to Greece in the interim, even if they are armed with Matilda II's only. The rational is fairly simple, the force being sent is going to defend Greece and the Matilda II's did well on the defensive in France against superior numbers of Germans. This sort of Force gives us time to wrap things up in North Africa and redeploy XIII corps. That gives us a situation of

• O'Connor in North Africa with his forces brought up to strength and hopefully some or all of the A9's and A10's replaced. No new units though except perhaps the 9th Australian. He is given supplies and orders to go capture Tripoli.
• Greece gets a couple of Divisions at most with a mandate to sit on the defensive and await reinforcements. The force will be mainly British and using second line tanks, I would suspect all Matilda II's. As soon as O'Connor has finished off the Italians in North Africa XIII corps is being sent to reinforce the Greek Force.
• Crete gets the New Zealanders and the rest of 52nd battalion in the last of the A11's and backed up with some Mk VI's.

That leaves north Africa and Crete looking pretty good though Greece is a disaster waiting to happen. I could well see it looking good on paper to the politicians however.

Edit;
If I were writing the story i would have all the A9's in XIII corps replaced and some of them sent to Crete with the 52nd Battalion as command tanks. They have the hull radio Operator so better communications.

 

[kelgar04]

Weren't some Battalions enroute from the UK around this time as well that got ear marked for Crete? I can't remember rightly but I think the Sherwood Foresters had a battalion in that mix

 

[Look More Closely Later]

... Even more importantly if the Yugoslav coup has not happened, there is no German drive through Yugoslavia, per its treaty it would keep effectively neutral, thus the Germans need to advance through East Macedonia after reducing the Rupel pass fortifications to open up the supply route...

Even in this timeline, Hitler really doesn't have a good track record of letting a mere pieces of paper get in the way of military action. (See for example the Munich agreement and the invasions of Belgium and Holland.) If Yugoslavia is the fastest and best way to Greece, it seems likely to me that the Germans will go through Yugoslavia one way or another and regardless of any treaties.

 

[CB13]

Is there any chance that prior to thinking about sending forces to Crete, UK planners first consider sending withdrawn tanks and guns to reinforce Malta? Facing the threat of naval or airborne invasion I would likely be prioritizing any spare assets there as although an A9 may not be ideal in the desert against better armed Italian (or German) forces, it certainly could make a hell of a mess of super light naval or airborne infantry.

 

[Atrophied]

Um im pretty sure the agreement of the yugoslavians was when they joined the axis was mainly about using their railway to support a invasion of greece since there was a decent sized railway towards salonika i think wich also connected to austria i think for good logisitcs and that was the main point of why germans wanted the yugoslavians to join the axis outside setting europe in order for the invasion of soviet union. And this was the main reason behind the coup rather than the regent really wanting to join the axis asfar i can tell , he really was pressured into it.

As i said before , building a railway towards tobruk and later a tobruk / bengazhi line is a thing to pursue and as said this is something the local italians and even the local tribes could be recruited manpower wise to help outside gear and engineers and stuff being provided by the brits i imagine . The brits actually didnt have a money problem during the war, they had a dollar shortage so it is affordable .

Other timelines have had the explanation of why australians can be deployed to greece could be to set up the commander of the british forces at first atleast be a australian wich should butterfly away alot of australian objections i think for example . Altough setting up crete now that compass is about over is a thing to do compared to otl aswell since it should free up crete troops for the greeks for the mainland , probably by sending the new zealanders and some tanks as suggested by others.

As people have said , since ultra should already be telling this to the brits they should know about the decision to send german troops to tripoli already so thats another reason to maybe send a valiant convoy to reequip the 7th armored with . The a9/10-s can be sent to either india for their armored forces since they are setting up a armored divison maybe or as people have suggested maybe a regiment can be sent to the east african campaign and a regiment or two to crete defend the airfields and landing sites. Or even send them to greece even .

People are forgetting that compared to otl atleast churchill sent the 2nd armored divison to the middle east here wich would make sense as a nucleus of the force being sent to greek and as people are mentioned you could also send the earlier mentioned matilda brigade wich did very well in france in defensive roles and you could maybe send another brigade from new production to send another armored divison wich could compensate somewhat for the low troop numbers. A australian corps with 2 armored divisons and maybe another divison from the home islands could make for a diffrent greece campaign atleast compared to otl ? And the only realistic change since i doubt politics have changed in greece much is to insist on a flanking guard to their army in albania from a attack from yugoslavia / bulgaria so that the main greek army or alteast big parts of it can be evacuated south to the defensive lines there wich could delay the campaign several weeks i think untill enough germans arrive drive them from greece . But this could set up alot more extensive evacuation of greeks wich could be very useful for the italian campaigns and could also free up the new zealand divison for other roles aswell. And could do alot more damage to the panzers forces wich could actually help with barbarossa . Cause two armored divisons wouldnt be fun especially if flanking stuff can be stopped for the germans and the brits would know that evacuating tanks wont be fun and lets get the best use out of them ? You could also try to amass supplies and stuff before the political decison is made to help greece with troops tough since compass isnt swallowing up resources aswell ? Cause apparently it will take atleast a month for that to be made here . And you can even say that they will either given to the greeks or be supplies for planned british troops ? This could be something metaxes allows actually and the british could make noises to him about the commitment he wants thanks to compass ending and east africa aswell in the near future about the amount of troops he wanted aswell .

I still think my idea of sending the last of the production valiant 1-s with 2 pounders to india and australia to set up armored divisons preferably or atleast brigades is a good idea to pursue as a butterfly . Cause valiants are in production alot earlier than valentines and their production numbers will be pretty good by now . Basicly if training can be fobbed off to non valiant tanks mainly then the brits could produce about a armored divison worth of tanks atleast a month by now i think. And for 1941 logic when brits were alone in the war , the prospect of 2 armored divisons with valiants for 1942 in either greece or north africa should sound rather nice and as said i think those should be the last mark 1-s with the 2 pounders aswell since the brits would want to upgrade to 6 pounder ones anyway for new units i think to make sense of things.

Also when will 6 pounder valiant mark 2-s start to be produced @allanpcameron ?

 

[RetiredCdntanker]

Good update!
Steel tracks are not normally allowed on any roads, due to the damage they cause (especially when turning!) This is especially true for dirt, gravel and tar. Much less true for cement roads, and cobblestones were virtually impregnable.
What normally happened is that they paralleled the road, not too far distant, so they would be close enough for fitters and POL and such.
Once rubber pads became more common, then tanks were once again allowed on most roads.
Of course, in some areas there was no choice but to use roads, this kept the poor engineers busy doing repairs.....

 

[allanpcameron]

26 January 1941. Farnborough, England.

Progress on various vehicles had been examined over the previous months and various reports were being written up. Major-General Vyvyan Pope came to see for himself what was going on. In order to prepare for the next Tank Board meeting it would be crucial to have the latest information so that decisions could be made.

First was Nuffield’s A15 Cruiser tank. The MEE had been impressed that the company had taken on board much of the criticisms made. The latest vehicles that had come for testing had a redesigned driver’s position, with the worst of the problems dealt with. To achieve the modifications the front of the tank had had to be changed. The hull gunner’s auxiliary turret had been removed altogether, so that the driver’s position could be made more effective. Trials of the auxiliary turret had shown it to be a death trap for the gunner, so deleting it had been seen as the easiest way to fix the interconnected problems at the front of the hull.

The problems with the suspension, especially the axle arms, which had shown themselves too fragile, had been looked at and changes made. The other major problem that had been looked at was the cooling system. With the possibility that the tank might have to work in hot climates, this was a particular concern. There were two problems identified which combined created most of the problems. The first was the chain to the cooling fan. There were constant problems with broken teeth on the driving sprocket and the chain would be over-stretched and break. Because of its inaccessible position it was very difficult for the crew, or indeed the mechanics to be able to fix the problem. Nuffield had modified the system, but the modifications were still a long way from solving the problems. The second cooling problem stemmed from the air intakes for the engine. This used a concertina dry felt air cleaner, but with the positioning of it, it was prone to be overwhelmed by the quantity of dust being ingested, blocking the filters and starving the engine. Changes had been made to change to an oil-bath cleaner system, similar to the Vickers’ system for the Valiant and A9 and A10s. It had been hoped for the ease of the maintenance of the various tanks, that Nuffield would use exactly the same system. Instead, Nuffield opted for a system made by Vokes Ltd.

The deletion of the auxiliary turret meant that Nuffield were able to adapt the front turret and hull of the tank to take the armour protection up to the equivalent of 50mm, a little less than 2 inches. The discussion about a version of the turret to take the new 6-pdr gun was still unresolved, Nuffield were of the opinion that it would need a completely new design. The MEE felt that the changes made to the original prototypes meant that the A15 was now able to be put into production. Pope agreed, it wasn’t going to be the best tank, but it would still be a useful tank. Continuing modifications would need to be done, but that was true of every tank.

Vauxhall’s A22E1 prototype had also been fully tested over the last couple of months. The list of defects had been lengthy. If this was the tank proposed to take over from the Vulcan Matilda, it left a lot to be desired. Yes, it was much more heavily armoured, and the Bedford engine did give it a bit more horsepower than the Matilda’s diesel twin bus engines. In terms of speed there was little to tell them apart, in fact in a straight race between the two, the Matilda won. The operational range was significantly less, partly because the Matilda used diesel while the A22 used petrol. The armament in the turret was the same, but the A22 was designed to have the 3-inch tank howitzer in the hull. The new gearing system on the A22 were certainly an improvement, especially with the triple differential steering. If the defects could be overcome in the second prototype, then it could possibly be put into production. In the meantime, Vulcan’s Matilda would continue in production.

In contrast to the A15 and A22, the Vickers Victor had also been put through its paces. There were certainly defects, and these would need to be ironed out. The improved Perkins diesel engine was sufficient for the moment, but the Meadows Peregrine, which should have been the engine was still being fine-tuned. Like the A22 the new Merritt-Brown gearing and steering system was judged good, but there were still bugs that had to be fixed. The turret had the 6-pdr gun currently as work on the new 3-inch gun was continuing. The suspension system, although new, was based on existing systems and during the trials had been found to be successful in providing the tank with a reasonable ride at all speeds over all kinds of terrain. A second prototype would be needed, especially with the Meadows engine and 3-inch gun, but as a replacement to the Valiant, the Victor was certainly an improvement.

Vickers had been busy with three other projects which had also been tested over the winter months. After the first attempt to create a self-propelled gun using an A10 hull and a 75mm field gun, the second version used a Valiant Mark I hull and the standard 25-pdr howitzer. A lot had been learned from the first experiment, and the Royal Artillery, having tested the Birch Gun at Larkhill and were very pleased with it. The Royal Horse Artillery requested an initial 400 of the Birch Gun to equip ten regiments with a reserve and training needs.

The second prototype of a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun had also been tested. Again using the Valiant Mark I hull, this had a Bofors 40mm gun instead of the original pompom on the test vehicle. The trials at both Farnborough and Larkhill had gone very well, and once again the Light Ant-Aircraft regiments that were likely to work with Armoured Divisions would need at least 300 of these as an initial order.

Pope knew that ordering 700 Valiant hulls for the Royal Artillery would be a problem. The obvious solution would be to get Vauxhall to cease work on the A22, and tool up to make the Valiant hull instead. Then there would be the problem of getting Perkins to make enough engines, unless Vauxhall’s Bedford engines could swap over to make the diesel engine. This idea was above Pope’s ability to implement, but he noted it for discussion at the next Tank Board meeting.

The final vehicle that had been tested was new type of carrier designed to carry infantry closer the action than the current use of lorries which couldn’t come too close to the fighting. This project had been a cooperation between Leslie Little and Vivian Loyd. In his carrier, Loyd had moved away from the flexible steering of the universal carrier, mostly to simplify production. The A17 Tetrarch light tank had taken the flexible steering to its logical conclusion and there were advantages to it. When the idea of Tracked Personnel Carrier had been thought of, Vickers had asked these two designers to work on it together.

The original plan was to use the engine and suspension of the A17 and creating a body that would comfortably carry a squad of infantry. This would need the vehicle to be a good deal longer than either the Loyd carrier or the A17. Adding an extra wheel to the A17 on each side would provide the extra length but the flexible steering would struggle. The Meadows 12 cylinder of the A17 tank doubled the power available, which would allow the bullet-proof plate to be increased to half an inch, the same as the A17. The alternative plan was to use the Horstman suspension of the Loyd Carrier, adding an extra double bogie on each side to increase the length. This wouldn’t use the flexible steering system of the universal carrier, but the simpler braking system that Loyd had used on the carrier. The decision to go with this design based on expanded version of the Loyd carrier was partly to allow the various firms currently making the carriers to continue to be able do so. The more complex A17 system would by its nature, eat into companies who were needed to build tanks.

Various experiments had been made with the layout of the Tracked Personnel vehicle. Putting the engine sideways in the front, similar to the layout of the Mark VI light tank, with the driver alongside, would allow the rear of the cabin to be free for the soldiers and their equipment. The size of the engine meant that the width of the vehicle would have to be increased proportionately to the length. A lot of thought went into the positioning the fuel tank to prevent it being penetrated and immolating the crew or infantry.

The first drawings and wooden mock-up had been open topped, but it was felt that an enclosed cabin, with hatches on the roof for soldiers to stand up and fire on the move was a better idea. Just behind the driver’s position was the commander of the vehicle, this position had a cupola to allow all round vision, and there was space here for a radio. A Bren gun mount was provided to allow the commander to give covering fire for the infantry who would dismount from a rear double door.

When the vehicle, given the Vickers code name of Viking, was put through all its tests it was found to be more than adequate. Since much of it was already being used on other vehicles, there was very few criticisms of the mechanicals. The layout of the hatches on the roof was criticised, as it was felt that it weakened the roof armour. The infantrymen who’d taken it out into the field for an exercise said they would prefer having a fixed roof which would allow extra gear to be carried on top. They did like the idea of being able to see what was going on around them and the ability to fire on the move. They would prefer this to be done by having some kind of armoured shutters on the sides. Opening them would allow light and ventilation in, allowing some degree of awareness of where they were, and with the possibility to firing out through them.

Vyvyan Pope could see why the Viking would be popular with the troops. About forty of these would be needed to equip an Infantry Battalion. That would mean that equipping the infantry in just the Support Groups for each of the Armoured Divisions would need about 750 of these Tracked Carriers Personnel. This might reduce the numbers of universal carriers being made, but as long as Meadows could produce enough engines, then production could begin quickly.

NB All of this is different from OTL. So, without the need to rush the A15 into production, some of the OTL problems can be resolved, like removing the auxiliary turret, thickening the armour and sorting out some of the other problems. Some things, like the cooling fan drive chain would need a major redesign. The A22, also not being rushed is looking more and more like a waste of time. The Victor still isn't up to scratch, Meadows was slow OTL in getting engines to work, so it is here. Also the SPG, SPAAG and APC are all desirable, but would eat into production of other things. Whether the Ministry of Supply gives the go ahead, we'll need to see. Thanks to @Claymore for the Vampire image.

 

[MarcH]

Another good update, things are really coming along now.

Changes had been made to change to an oil-bath cleaner system, similar to the Vickers’ system for the Valiant and A9 and A10s. It had been hoped for the ease of the maintenance of the various tanks, that Nuffield would use exactly the same system. Instead, Nuffield opted for a system made by Vokes Ltd.

Of course they did.
Must admit I did chuckle a little when I read this.

Vauxhall’s A22E1 prototype had also been fully tested over the last couple of months. The list of defects had been lengthy.

Just how many sides of A4 are we talking? Edit per @Mark1878 how many sides of foolscap are we talking here?

If this was the tank proposed to take over from the Vulcan Matilda, it left a lot to be desired.

This is an interesting sentence, more below.

In contrast to the A15 and A22, the Vickers Victor had also been put through its paces. There were certainly defects, and these would need to be ironed out. The improved Perkins diesel engine was sufficient for the moment, but the Meadows Peregrine, which should have been the engine was still being fine-tuned. Like the A22 the new Merritt-Brown gearing and steering system was judged good, but there were still bugs that had to be fixed. The turret had the 6-pdr gun currently as work on the new 3-inch gun was continuing. The suspension system, although new, was based on existing systems and during the trials had been found to be successful in providing the tank with a reasonable ride at all speeds over all kinds of terrain. A second prototype would be needed, especially with the Meadows engine and 3-inch gun, but as a replacement to the Valiant, the Victor was certainly an improvement.

All looking good, will the Peregrine prototype be followed by a Meteor prototype though? I think yes.

Also is the 3" gun getting More Power????????

Vickers had been busy with three other projects which had also been tested over the winter months. After the first attempt to create a self-propelled gun using an A10 hull and a 75mm field gun, the second version used a Valiant Mark I hull and the standard 25-pdr howitzer. A lot had been learned from the first experiment, and the Royal Artillery, having tested the Birch Gun at Larkhill and were very pleased with it. The Royal Horse Artillery requested an initial 400 of the Birch Gun to equip ten regiments with a reserve and training needs.

The second prototype of a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun had also been tested. Again using the Valiant Mark I hull, this had a Bofors 40mm gun instead of the original pompom on the test vehicle. The trials at both Farnborough and Larkhill had gone very well, and once again the Light Ant-Aircraft regiments that were likely to work with Armoured Divisions would need at least 300 of these as an initial order.

So the SPG and SPAAG are looking ready to order. All to the good and looking forward to seeing how this progresses.

Pope knew that ordering 700 Valiant hulls for the Royal Artillery would be a problem. The obvious solution would be to get Vauxhall to cease work on the A22, and tool up to make the Valiant hull instead. Then there would be the problem of getting Perkins to make enough engines, unless Vauxhall’s Bedford engines could swap over to make the diesel engine. This idea was above Pope’s ability to implement, but he noted it for discussion at the next Tank Board meeting.

That does sound like a good plan, I am surprised that the British are still thinking in terms of a Replacement for the Matilda II at this point. I am guessing it wont last long as the meeting that will take place will put an end to it but it is interesting. It almost seems to suggest that the British now have three classes of tank, Cruiser tanks where the A15 is following on from the A9, A10 and A13 then they have Infantry tanks where the A22 is following on from the A12 and finally the Vickers Class where Vickers keeps doing it's own thing and the Victor is going to replace both versions of the Valiant. Bit of a muddle all that.

The final vehicle that had been tested was new type of carrier designed to carry infantry closer the action than the current use of lorries which couldn’t come too close to the fighting. This project had been a cooperation between Leslie Little and Vivian Loyd. In his carrier, Loyd had moved away from the flexible steering of the universal carrier, mostly to simplify production. The A17 Tetrarch light tank had taken the flexible steering to its logical conclusion and there were advantages to it. When the idea of Tracked Personnel Carrier had been thought of, Vickers had asked these two designers to work on it together.

The original plan was to use the engine and suspension of the A17 and creating a body that would comfortably carry a squad of infantry. This would need the vehicle to be a good deal longer than either the Loyd carrier or the A17. Adding an extra wheel to the A17 on each side would provide the extra length but the flexible steering would struggle. The Meadows 12 cylinder of the A17 tank doubled the power available, which would allow the bullet-proof plate to be increased to half an inch, the same as the A17. The alternative plan was to use the Horstman suspension of the Loyd Carrier, adding an extra double bogie on each side to increase the length. This wouldn’t use the flexible steering system of the universal carrier, but the simpler braking system that Loyd had used on the carrier. The decision to go with this design based on expanded version of the Loyd carrier was partly to allow the various firms currently making the carriers to continue to be able do so. The more complex A17 system would by its nature, eat into companies who were needed to build tanks.

Sorry but I found this a bit confusing, the end result is effectively an enclosed Loyd Carrier right?

The final vehicle that had been tested was new type of carrier designed to carry infantry closer the action than the current use of lorries which couldn’t come too close to the fighting. This project had been a cooperation between Leslie Little and Vivian Loyd. In his carrier, Loyd had moved away from the flexible steering of the universal carrier, mostly to simplify production. The A17 Tetrarch light tank had taken the flexible steering to its logical conclusion and there were advantages to it. When the idea of Tracked Personnel Carrier had been thought of, Vickers had asked these two designers to work on it together.

The original plan was to use the engine and suspension of the A17 and creating a body that would comfortably carry a squad of infantry. This would need the vehicle to be a good deal longer than either the Loyd carrier or the A17. Adding an extra wheel to the A17 on each side would provide the extra length but the flexible steering would struggle. The Meadows 12 cylinder of the A17 tank doubled the power available, which would allow the bullet-proof plate to be increased to half an inch, the same as the A17. The alternative plan was to use the Horstman suspension of the Loyd Carrier, adding an extra double bogie on each side to increase the length. This wouldn’t use the flexible steering system of the universal carrier, but the simpler braking system that Loyd had used on the carrier. The decision to go with this design based on expanded version of the Loyd carrier was partly to allow the various firms currently making the carriers to continue to be able do so. The more complex A17 system would by its nature, eat into companies who were needed to build tanks.

Various experiments had been made with the layout of the Tracked Personnel vehicle. Putting the engine sideways in the front, similar to the layout of the Mark VI light tank, with the driver alongside, would allow the rear of the cabin to be free for the soldiers and their equipment. The size of the engine meant that the width of the vehicle would have to be increased proportionately to the length. A lot of thought went into the positioning the fuel tank to prevent it being penetrated and immolating the crew or infantry.

The first drawings and wooden mock-up had been open topped, but it was felt that an enclosed cabin, with hatches on the roof for soldiers to stand up and fire on the move was a better idea. Just behind the driver’s position was the commander of the vehicle, this position had a cupola to allow all round vision, and there was space here for a radio. A Bren gun mount was provided to allow the commander to give covering fire for the infantry who would dismount from a rear double door.

When the vehicle, given the Vickers code name of Viking, was put through all its tests it was found to be more than adequate. Since much of it was already being used on other vehicles, there was very few criticisms of the mechanicals. The layout of the hatches on the roof was criticised, as it was felt that it weakened the roof armour. The infantrymen who’d taken it out into the field for an exercise said they would prefer having a fixed roof which would allow extra gear to be carried on top. They did like the idea of being able to see what was going on around them and the ability to fire on the move. They would prefer this to be done by having some kind of armoured shutters on the sides. Opening them would allow light and ventilation in, allowing some degree of awareness of where they were, and with the possibility to firing out through them.

Vyvyan Pope could see why the Viking would be popular with the troops. About forty of these would be needed to equip an Infantry Battalion. That would mean that equipping the infantry in just the Support Groups for each of the Armoured Divisions would need about 750 of these Tracked Carriers Personnel. This might reduce the numbers of universal carriers being made, but as long as Meadows could produce enough engines, then production could begin quickly.

Quick Question. The Meadows 12 cylinder isn't the flat 12 of OTL is it. I'm sure there was a post mentioning that it was different. If it is that is a Very wide engine to put in the front of an APC. Even a V12 is a pretty big beast. I am surprised that nobody thought to chop a bank of the Perkins Diesel Lion and turn it into a V8. Far more compact and will offer the power needed, also means commonality of parts with the Valiant I, and SPG and SPAAG engines. Beyond that it all seems pretty great though possibly a bit wide.
Gonna need a hell of a production run to make enough of them though. still they will replace some of the roles of the Loyd and Universal Carriers.

One final thought, how long until they run out of names beginning with a V? Also please save the Crusader name, it's such a good name for a tank that was wasted on the A15.

 

[Mark1878]

Just how many sides of A4 are we talking?

This is not ASB - foolscap please

 

[Derek Pullem]

Another good update, things are really coming along now.


Of course they did.
Must admit I did chuckle a little when I read this.

Just how many sides of A4 are we talking?

This is an interesting sentence, more below.

All looking good, will the Peregrine prototype be followed by a Meteor prototype though? I think yes.

Also is the 3" gun getting More Power????????

So the SPG and SPAAG are looking ready to order. All to the good and looking forward to seeing how this progresses.

That does sound like a good plan, I am surprised that the British are still thinking in terms of a Replacement for the Matilda II at this point. I am guessing it wont last long as the meeting that will take place will put an end to it but it is interesting. It almost seems to suggest that the British now have three classes of tank, Cruiser tanks where the A15 is following on from the A9, A10 and A13 then they have Infantry tanks where the A22 is following on from the A12 and finally the Vickers Class where Vickers keeps doing it's own thing and the Victor is going to replace both versions of the Valiant. Bit of a muddle all that.

Sorry but I found this a bit confusing, the end result is effectively an enclosed Loyd Carrier right?

Quick Question. The Meadows 12 cylinder isn't the flat 12 of OTL is it. I'm sure there was a post mentioning that it was different. If it is that is a Very wide engine to put in the front of an APC. Even a V12 is a pretty big beast. I am surprised that nobody thought to chop a bank of the Perkins Diesel Lion and turn it into a V8. Far more compact and will offer the power needed, also means commonality of parts with the Valiant I, and SPG and SPAAG engines. Beyond that it all seems pretty great though possibly a bit wide.
Gonna need a hell of a production run to make enough of them though. still they will replace some of the roles of the Loyd and Universal Carriers.

One final thought, how long until they run out of names beginning with a V? Also please save the Crusader name, it's such a good name for a tank that was wasted on the A15.

I think the biggest difference between the Loyd carrier OTL and the Viking is the engine

Given the Victor is actually a generation forward from the Valiant it might be easier to rename it Crusader (and other names beginning with C for its own variants) despite Vickers' fetish for "vee" names. Similarly the carrier could go with a "T" series (especially if the Tetrarch is dying a slow death).

When is someone going to explain to Nuffield that he's not getting any more orders for the A15??