Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[allanpcameron]

Thanks troops, pleasure to read through everything this morning, as it is every day, but today, there's a lot of work to get through.

Rumors of the Valiant tanks would have spread like wildfire by the fleeing truckers and those ten tankettes so despite what Italian commander want morale would have collapse any time when the British met Italian units. Better surrender than facing those tanks.
Depending on how fast he get out with what supplies he can carry allowing them to retreat to the nearest base otherwise they would have to abandon any vehicles or tanks if it ran out of fuel or breakdown on the roads.

The unstoppable tank. It must feel for Graziani that he's facing a steam roller. I am presuming that he's thinking the same here as OTL, only its happening quicker and more comprehensively. The battle of Beda Fomm is likely to be a bit different here.

I feel that the after action reports are going to be of "We Want Valiant, and We Won't Wait" variety. I think the last couple of major actions have only succeeded so successfully with so few casualties, is due to the Valiant's of both types being available. The other major part of the AAR will be the tremendous use the 3.7 CS tank gave and that they (the ranks and gentlemen officers) want HE available to all AFV's. The only real use the other types of tanks have given are the speed of, I think, the A9 when they chased down the tankettes, but this does not absolve them of being shoddy tanks that are not Valients.

The good news is the A9 and A10 production have ended, but with and extra 100 A10 over OTL and both tanks having better tracks TTL, it puts 7th Armoured Division in a much better state than they actually were. They will be remembered more fondly I think here than they were otherwise. The need for HE I think is well established now, pretty much 2 years ahead of schedule.

Not an option, Benghazi is full of Italian settlers ( up to 20000 ) with no realistic way of leaving. Different rules for different theatres, it also does not help its that even through its the biggest city in Cyrenaica, its only 67000 in population, not a big place. OTL it got bombed a lot by both sides and over 80% of the city had been flattened by 1943.

The Italian army withdrawal left the Settler population in a sticky position. More of that in the next update. But Benghazi won't be a Stalingrad.

So the situation in North Africa. The British have lost one of the weeks they had gained over OTL, not too surprising as some time to rest and refit was always going to be needed. Even so they are still walking over the Italians with a few exceptions. As things stand the British are following the OTL plan pretty much and that's the right call to make. What about the Italians though. Well they are pulling back, and that decision is the correct one, but it's too late. The British will shut the door on any attempt to withdraw in good order and just like OTL the Italians will have to surrender. The question is how fast will they try to get out of Cyrenaica? if they try to go too slowly and destroy port facilities in places like Benghazi they will know they are going to get cut off given how fast the British are advancing. The alternative of just running now and letting the British capture intact facilities is the lesser of two evils for them. If they get out but the British can use Benghazi at least they are hopefully able to reorganise and offer better resistance going forward.

The difference re Benghazi is that it is within range of aircraft, and it takes the Royal Navy longer at sea to get there and back. With the arrival of the Luftwaffe, the RN is starting to feel the heat. HMS Illustrious is knocked out as a carrier, so I wonder if Cunningham will be looking at Tobruk much more as the primary port rather than Benghazi, especially if the Luftwaffe make it to North Africa.

That all assumes of course that the Italians don't simply collapse. IF that happens then North Africa is very likely up for grabs. Any attempts to damage port facilities will be difficult if troops are trying to flee the impending British doom. The other question becomes how able are the British to capitalise, if they sense the whole thing will come down if they can only kick in the door then O'Connor will want to kick in the door. Now an Italian collapse isn't exactly unlikely at this point but what is more up in the air is exactly how much more the British logistics can support. If they can support even a limited push further up the coast then I can see O'Connor being allowed to continue, even if a week or so of rest is needed first. The need to intervene immediately in Greece wont be quite as strong as the OTL desire though it will continue to grow.
How far O'Connor can get depends on the Logistics, the Italians and if they collapse completely or only locally and if the Germans show up. Based on what has happened so far and the fact the Italians have functionally collapsed at best and fully collapsed at worst I can actually see the Germans sitting this one out, it is at least more likely than them getting involved.

One of the differences here is that the speed of the British over OTL means that some of the reinforcements sent to Cyrenaica, which were then ultimately lost at Beda Fomm, haven't been sent. So the Italians are actually a bit stronger in Tripoli than they would be otherwise.

@allanpcameron what's the status of localised production of jerrycans e.g. in Cairo and Alexandria?

I would presume these coming on stream would bring enormous flexibility to maneuver locally.

As @El Pip mentioned: unlikely. The flimsies were made locally. The jerrycan will need better production facilities. I mentioned some being taken to India, so Tata Steel might end up being a big producer. The question which I haven't really alluded to here is that OTL the first copies by the Western Allies weren't actually very good. The went for a cheap knockoff version, rather than the well-engineered German original.

Whilst this is true and the geography cannot change, the logistics element can and indeed already has. Capturing the water plant means that less water needs trucking up from the delta, allowing more trucks to carry more fuel and ammo. Less wreckage of port facilities means earlier and better ability to handle dhows and coasters further forward, with the same net effect. More reliable tanks mean fewer spare parts required and less fuel allocated to salvage operations. Lower losses and battles one faster leads to less fuel used on medivac and more importantly, less artillery ammunition required.
There’s a virtuous circle forming here.

The water plant was captured OTL, but yes the port facilities at Tobruk are better. There is a virtuous circle, but its diameter is still quite small.

Haven't really looked at the North African Campaigns in years TBH need to fix that but the Italians have taken their losses a lot more rapidly than OTL with a lot of loot being taken by the allies earlier on. I can't see any way for them to hold Benghazi with what they have left heck they haven't been able to pull out the forces they did in OTL compass adding to this with what asserts the RN and RAF probably have hunting in the Western Med I can't see any convoy making it through without losses.

Not dealing with the RN and RAF situation has been kind of deliberate on my part. It would make my life much more difficult. But it is happening as OTL, so presume OTL losses to both British and Italian convoys/ships.

The photos of the German ABP works appear to show a fairly meaty press being used and firms like "Briggs Motor Bodies" and "Pressed Steel Company" involved in British manufacturing, you would not waste those heavy engineering firms and their valuable presses if simple machine shops could do it.
Timeline appears to be Late 1940 people in hte UK started asking about design and manufacture of the Jerrycan but even by early 1943 'only' 2 million had been produced and production had to ramp up still further The US forces in Normandy needed 1.3 million a month just to replace cans that got 'lost', so you need massive production to make a difference.

If the British copies of the jerrycan are effective (see above) then the chances are that more of them will be ordered, this is their debut, a lot will depend on the feedback.

True but the issue was that the British weren't convinced of the merits of jerrycans until late 1942 (the troops had to scavenge captured German ones). Once they accepted the need then they made millions (20 million in a year I think). Factories to make the jerrycans could and were located in the Middle East but it's not a back street / souk operation - as you say you need the tooling from UK.

I do think some production can be done in India, possibly Australia too. Canada definitely. Like Canadian Pattern Trucks, the jerrycan will be a big part of the RASC's success.

I still cant get over peoples predictions that they can push alot further than in otl . Maybe 50 km more at best but thats it , the harbors arent big and modern enough to supply forces that far away from egypt without having time to amass logistics for a few months first ! The reaction for the italians should be the same as otl since they are just collapsing a little faster and thats it rather than this being a radical departure from otl . Operation compass was truly a disaster for the italians , a slightly better compass is still just a disaster and not a regime collapsing event as some have suggested.

I would agree.

But what about my idea of sending o`connor to greece or if not him then atleast if we are doing greece in this timeline still insist that the greeks cover their retreat route back to greece from albania from a flanking attack from yugoslavia/bulgaria? Cause you cant get them to retreat preemptivly before a invasion to be honest without alot bigger pod but insisting if you really want to be deployed there then atleast please for the sake of sanity please post a force to defend your vunerable flank since most of greek army is being supplied by 2 passes into albania ! In otl this force got cut off by like battalion sized german motorized forces and forced to surrender . There is a chance if you do this you could delay campaign atlaest a week or two if the forces can be evacuted south and help the brits defend the southern defense lines and maybe abit longer even? While also evacuating to crete like they did in otl or even to egypt ? Cause in otl like 40k greeks surrendered with the brits in otl in crete i mean and i imagine almost all of them were evacuated from the mainland but the issue was that these troops were like troops in dunkirk and after in that they were useless and needed alot of time and effort to reorganize and this is a place where the italian gear could be useful , equipping the greek army at first . Would honestly prefer that the greeks be supplied by the americans when they join at the end of the year ? Altough a valiant equipped greek armored divison to fight in italy isnt a bad idea in 1943 as part of a corps sized force ?

I need to do more research on the Greek campaign before I can comment fully, but, realistically, having better British tanks there might help a bit. But, I'm not sure it will be enough.

And what about my idea of sending the last 800-1000 mark 1 valiants with the 2 pounder i mean to australia and indians to equip a armored divison with plans being that they will be deployed to europe theater in 1942 and this is only about 2 months of production i think so it wont be as big of a hole as planned while also helping in deployable forces? Mainly this can be excused that this will gain the brits 2 armored divisons without weakening home defenses since army isnt very thrilled about sending armored divisons overseas atleast right now and that they will be abit meh compared to the 6 pounder versions wich they will be upgrading to anyway ? This should happen sometime in the first half of 1941 tough asfar i can tell is the issue and there arent very many drivers for this altough the lack of tanks india has been mentioned. The indians are forming a armored divison but dont have tanks for it and the australians were interested in a tank divison aswell .

The Australian and Indian Armoured Divisions will be a thing. OTL the Indian's served primarily in Persia, and the Aussies didn't quite get it fully together, mostly because of where they were fighting, it was less essential. If the two Divisions are fully trained and equipped in advance of OTL, maybe they'll find a use, but I doubt it will be in the European Theatre.

I’m unclear on how much material support was sent to Greece OTL but wondered about the swapping of captured Italian supplies in lieu of British supplies.
An Italian captured truck has possibly? A better chance of surviving in Greece which I am assuming would be more familiar with the trucks then British/dominion troops and possibly more access to parts. That being said trucks are going to be worth their weight in gold in North Africa and would be a fight to release of any kind.
I could see captured Italian tanks going to India however for training with newly raised units and with infantry units there. Also as security for Iraq and the lend lease road corridor there instead of shipping new construction around.
If desert force tankers can “borrow” Italian tanks to keep up the advance on the fly I can see captured units shipped east as an temporary measure until new construction catches up.

There's a lot of good stuff in this. AIUI a lot of captured Italian supplies went to Greece anyway, probably along with the British stuff which mostly supplied the ANZACs. Sending the Indians Italian tanks is a fun idea. Not sure how many of the better M13/40s have been captured intact, at least the M11/39 and tankettes would be useful for training. Thanks for that.

Just trying to put my "What if?" hat on for a moment.....
With the Italians about to collapse throughout Africa and Greece, is there any room for a back-channel negotiation for a "Peace Treaty with Honour" to quickly knock the Italians out of the war?
Key Objective: Provide Mussolini with an option that allows him to back down without public embarrassment.

It sucks to be Mussolini at this point, especially once East Africa falls. His position at home must be shaky after all these set backs. But a Peace Treaty with Honour, at the moment, I can't see it. Maybe, speak to me if Tripoli falls.

A slightly faster compass acheives almost nothing diffrent compared to otl since it was a disaster anyway and they didnt collapse in otl and this will acheive the same thing but just like 2 or 3 weeks faster wich isnt that diffrent to be honest . Hell mussolini was loosing in the invasion of greece and actually albania got counter invaded wich probably was a bigger deal than the empire losses as far as i can tell .
The main thing might be that the force that stay in north africa should be in better conditon compared to otl since they will have more time to refit and rest. And i mainly mean the 7th armored to answer to rommels attack since the australians are going to greece and i imagine the british brigade will aswell . Since the 2nd armored wich was sent to the middle east can be directed to greece instead of the 7th .
A quicker compass just might cancel german involvement tough if the author wants to pursue that since the germans might feel that the brits would be outside tripoli before enough forces can be sent tough and im very sure that the german high command wasnt thrilled with diversions from preparing to fight the soviet union . And this was a hitler decision wich distracted the germans at another place with horrific logistics.

Again, I think that's an accurate assessment. Not sure that the Germans won't be sent. Their orders were to defend Tripoli. Rommel decided to defend Tripoli from the Suez canal! You're earlier point about not getting much further than they did is true. Yes, 7th Armoured Division will be in a stronger position. Makes what happens in March kind of interesting.

It has occurred to me that if Sir John manages to develop, and get accepted, a tank gun based on the Vickers Model 1931 anti aircraft gun, that this would also make a good basis for an excellent Anti-Tank gun.
The Romanian Army used their license built Resita Model 1936 as the basis for the Resita Model 1943.
(Which bears a quasi-similar relationship to the Pak 40 as the Polsten did to the Oerlikon)
The main advantage would be in the bulk and weight. The Resita Model 1943 massed only about 200kg more than the Ordnance QF 6-pounder, and less that half that of the 17-pdr.

Thanks for that. You wouldn't a source by any chance. Getting info on these things can be problematic.

Thanks again everyone.
Allan

 

[perfectgeneral]

WorldWar2.ro - 75mm Vickers antiaircraft gun model 1936/39

www.worldwar2.ro

Which is the source accepted by wiki.

 

[Orry]

Just had a 1941 thought about Jerry Can production

Production starts in Canada and is partly outsourced to American factories (which would help the American Army later)

only

The Germans file a Patant violation claim in the neutral American courts.................

 

[Fred the Great]

Bit of a beefy post this one, hope you all enjoyed.

Sorry here for the updates.

 

[El Pip]

The main advantage would be in the bulk and weight. The Resita Model 1943 massed only about 200kg more than the Ordnance QF 6-pounder, and less that half that of the 17-pdr.

But it paid for that with a very short barrel life, less than 1/10th of that of the PaK40s in Romanian service.

If you told Royal Ordnance the gun only needed to last a couple of hundred shots not several thousand they could doubtless make the 17-pdr much lighter as well.

In fairness maybe the Romanians were right, how often did AT/tank guns survive long enough to actually wear out? Maybe a few hundred shots is actually more than enough life

 

[allanpcameron]

A slightly too early look at how the after action reports from North Africa will affect the development of British Tanks.

This one needed its own post.

To start off with a summary of where we are at currently. Britain has a doctrine of infantry and Cruiser tanks, .... So those lessons were starting to be implemented post Dunkirk At least as well as they could be, the 2pdr is always going to struggle to have even an adequate HE round. That being said the 6pdr which is on the way can take an adequate HE round, once one is designed. Some reorganisation work was done and production on the Valiant sisters really stepped up. Both are heavily armed tanks though fulfill the Infantry and Cruiser roles.

So far, so good. The advantages of the Valiant over the OTL Valentine is that it is earlier, and doesn't have the problem of being too lightly armoured to be an Infantry Tank and too slow to be a Cruiser.

Now we come to North Africa. A lot of the Lessons that had be learnt in France are still relevant here. Thick armour has time and again proven it's worth, Being able to successfully engage tanks has been of immense value and close Infantry co-operation has been instrumental to some of Britain's victories...

Again, so far so good. The Italian tanks weren't much to write home about and the arrival of the up-gunned and up-armoured Pz III in North Africa will be a shock to the 2-pdrs, as it was OTL. @Astrodragon's TL (worth a vote if you haven't already, but not more than mine!) has the advantage of having had time to work out in advance of the war the importance of infantry/tank cooperation, with carriers, SP guns etc. Compass is much more of a learning experience, notice how many Tank Commanders were KIA because of infantry cooperation during a battle. So there's a lot of lessons still to be learned.

Right now the most important tank Britain has is the Valiant I*, the Cruiser Valiant, the tank Carden did not want. Now here me out, to begin with it has what is effectively infantry tank armour anyway, the 60mm standard is the same as the Matilda I and 85% as thick as the Valiant I. Yes that extra 10mm will become important in the next 12ish months but right now it is making no practical difference except make the tank slower. In addition both Valiant's are armed the same so you have no difference there, the only real, practical advantage the Valiant I has right now is the increased range of action from it's diesel engine. Right now the Valiant I* is Britain's universal tank.

Certainly the two regiments equipped with Valiant I* have done well, but interestingly it was the Valiant I which took Sidi Barrani, Bardia and Tobruk. Just as the Matilda II was queen of the desert OTL.

The second claim that I am going to make is also fairly big. The A22, what will become the Churchill is now dead. Yes it has thick armour but the weak engine giving it both a very low top speed and a poor radius of action will be enough to doom it before other things do. The Victor was always going to emerge victorious in the battle between the two but now it is going to be favoured far more even before things like armament come into the equation.

The A22, as OTL Churchill is probably a dead man walking. But there's room for an 'assault tank' which never really went anywhere OTL. But with the Victor as the universal tank, I wouldn't be surprised if the A22 mutated into something where 500-1000 Black Prince type things (better engine allowing) end up being made.

The Victor won't have it all plain sailing however and ...
Point's 1 and 2 are both linked by the engine, though point 2 can be met somewhat by just shoving a stupidly massive fuel tank into the er... tank. The engine will need to be more powerful to give the speed that is likely needed and the obvious place to look to will be the Merlin. ... Allow me, if you will, to take you on a little journey....

All very possible. The Meadows story of work on the Peregrine will be the link to the Merlin probably. As to a diesel Meteor...good question.

Point 3 is sort of in the process of being met already in the shape of the 3" HV gun. I know here I go again but. I still have an issue with how this gun has been presented ITTL so far. I still believe that to entice the British Vickers will have made the gun predominantly a good tank killer then made the best HE shell for it as possible. That would have fit much more firmly with the British doctrine when the gun was first being developed that tanks kill tanks and who needs HE. ... For the 3" gun to get true acceptance from the British military establishment then pushing the AT performance up will be required. A gun with similar performance to the 77mm HV is the sort of gun Britain should be looking to build, at least in my opinion.

Well, we'll see. I am just aware that historically a lot of rabbit holes were explored before the final acceptance of a new weapon was approved. The danger of hindsight writing a TL like this is to fall into the temptation of doing everything right first time. The Vickers' use of the 75mm Model 1931 as a starting point was because it was a line that wasn't being taken up for war work priority for something else. A starting point is just that, and, as you've seen, already modifications are being made to the development. That will continue. Will we end up TTL with what we ended up with OTL? I'm not entirely sure.

Point 4 is an interesting one. The undeniable usefulness of the CS tanks firing HE will have been noted by everyone involved and you would be right for thinking that would add to the calls for a true dual purpose gun. I, as you might have guessed, don't agree for a couple of reasons. The first is kind of the same reason I don't see the British being ready for a true dual purpose gun yet.

But they did almost as soon as they got Grants with 75mm guns. Then you end up with the OTL QF75mm, and the 77mmHV and the 95mm CS. I'm just exploring the what if the experience of the 75mm gun is two years earlier. Where does that take us?

There is an elephant in the room and that elephant is APC's. The British are I believe well on the way to a universal tank, the changes to more cooperation with Infantry make that a certainty. The problem will be making sure the Infantry can keep up with what are currently deemed cruiser tanks and the roles they fulfill not only out of combat but in combat as well. If they can do that then it will be the final nail in the coffin for the split role tanks, that and the Victor being deemed fast enough.

The APC thing will come along, but its development will definitely be different from OTL. Notice the use of the A17 Tetrarch as the basis. There is some method in my madness.

So there are my thoughts on how the fighting in North Africa will affect British tank development. The Victor, powered by a big aero diesel, capable of 30mph ± 2mph, armed with a real hole punching gun that can fire a decent enough HE round and with 4 inches of frontal armour and probably more on the turret will form the backbone of the British tank fleet. That will be backed up with a CS version of the same tank armed with a big 4.5" howitzer firing all your favorite rounds, HE, HEAT and HESH, it will fire smoke as well. The Victor will become a universal tank and a very capable one at that whilst the CS version will likely evolve into an AVRE type vehicle. That is in the fullness of time however, as things stand the Universal tank is arriving and soon, the MBT however is still a some time away.
Bit of a beefy post this one, hope you all enjoyed.

That's a hell of a tank. We may not need the Challenger II upgrade after all!
Beefy posts are good posts, don't want any of that weedy plant based rubbish. Thanks
Allan.

 

[Rickshaw]

Just had a 1941 thought about Jerry Can production

Production starts in Canada and is partly outsourced to American factories (which would help the American Army later)

only

The Germans file a Patant violation claim in the neutral American courts.................

Which is why the Americans decided to develop a "much improved model" of the Jerrycan. Except their "much improved model" leaked...

 

[marathag]

Which is why the Americans decided to develop a "much improved model" of the Jerrycan. Except their "much improved model" leaked...

insert saying 'Don't let Perfect be the enemy of good enough'
anything that leaks less than the flimsies is an improvement.

An overview of OTL history on the can

The jerrycan: History and design

The jerrycan is a small steel vessel that's typically used to carry fuel or water in the military or on overland expeditions.

www.thefabricator.com

 

[Llewwyy]

Out of curiosity, how bad/good were the Italian trucks? Wiki on them is that they were made into the 50s. The 4 cylinder 80 hp diesel is interesting. I could see copying or at least looking at the features, fuel injection, air filters etc for British industry. That 4 cylinder truck diesel would be perfect for the APCs that Vickers is looking at. Common fuel for the armoured formations.

 

[MarcH]

This one needed its own post.

Yeah, thought it might.

he Italian tanks weren't much to write home about and the arrival of the up-gunned and up-armoured Pz III in North Africa will be a shock to the 2-pdrs, as it was OTL

So the Germans are coming then, does this count as you spoiling your own story?

Compass is much more of a learning experience, notice how many Tank Commanders were KIA because of infantry cooperation during a battle. So there's a lot of lessons still to be learned.

This was actually something I forgot to mention in the post was that the Victor will probably end up with a phone in a box to allow better communication between infantry and tank.

Certainly the two regiments equipped with Valiant I* have done well, but interestingly it was the Valiant I which took Sidi Barrani, Bardia and Tobruk. Just as the Matilda II was queen of the desert OTL.

Hmmm I had it in my head that it was a mix at Sidi Barrani but oh well, point still mostly stands that the Valiant I* is pretty much a bridge between the two types of tanks at times.

The A22, as OTL Churchill is probably a dead man walking. But there's room for an 'assault tank' which never really went anywhere OTL. But with the Victor as the universal tank, I wouldn't be surprised if the A22 mutated into something where 500-1000 Black Prince type things (better engine allowing) end up being made.

My reading of the situation was that the assault tanks were always seen as desirable if they were available but never really worth the effort of being produced. The problem morphing the Churchill into a Black Prince type vehicle will probably have is time. The A22 isn't going to be cancelled right away but realistically will be. Then you have to issue the new specification, modify the design, build a prototype, fix all of it's issues, second prototype, set up production the service. That will all take time, particularly if a new engine is put in which it realistically will need. That means that some of the fixes to the A22, if they were able to be implemented before it got cancelled may well not work on Black Prince. Once that has all happened there is a good possibility that the Victor is already in service before the Black Price is ready to enter production so why go down the route of production at that point? build more Victor's instead.

As to a diesel Meteor...good question.

Thank's, it does happen on occasion.

Well, we'll see. I am just aware that historically a lot of rabbit holes were explored before the final acceptance of a new weapon was approved. The danger of hindsight writing a TL like this is to fall into the temptation of doing everything right first time. The Vickers' use of the 75mm Model 1931 as a starting point was because it was a line that wasn't being taken up for war work priority for something else. A starting point is just that, and, as you've seen, already modifications are being made to the development. That will continue. Will we end up TTL with what we ended up with OTL? I'm not entirely sure.

My starting point in any sort of discussion on what would happen in this scenario or if this happened or if this was presented has always been what was the thought process or belief at the time. For Britain and tank guns pre and into WW2 it was always about good AP performance over all other considerations. Outside of an ASB scenario or a sufficiently early POD like @Astrodragon timeline it becomes very hard to move away from that. Given the timeframe the 3" gun was being looked at ITTL the Tanks fight Tanks doctrine was very well established and Vickers would have been aware of it. To try and get something accepted that went against that thinking would have been facing a very uphill battle. That's not to say that you cant game the system and go all out on AP performance but still find ways to get a good HE round but that is what would be needed and probably done, at least in my opinion.

But they did almost as soon as they got Grants with 75mm guns. Then you end up with the OTL QF75mm, and the 77mmHV and the 95mm CS. I'm just exploring the what if the experience of the 75mm gun is two years earlier. Where does that take us?

Just to be clear are you saying that when the British started using the 75mm they pretty much immediately decided they wanted a dual purpose gun? because that is not my reading of the situation at all. That's not to say that they were unimpressed, the British definitely liked the HE round but the whole package, i'm not convinced. When Britain started looking at adopting the Cromwell and which gun it would have they looked at three options. The 6pdr, the ROQF 75mm and the Vickers 75mm HV. The first tanks of the Cromwell family built all had the 6pdr but fairly soon the ROQF 75mm was ready but was not adopted. Vickers were working on the HV 75mm and that was the favoured gun so things carried on slowly until 1943 when everyone realised the Vickers gun would not fit. That meant it was the 75mm or nothing (officially anyway) so that is what was used. The thing is Britain pretty much immediately set about modifying the Cromwell to take the Vickers HV gun, like pretty much immediately. The real lack of delay to me at least suggests that the 75mm was seen very much as a stop gap at best. I could write a lot more on this as I am sure you have guessed by now and I am missing a lot of my conjecture out but when given the option of the 75mm the British said no until they couldn't have anything else. Getting it a few years earlier likely wont change anything if Britain feels it could have something better. If you want my in depth look at this whole topic I will happily post it, conjecture and speculation included but don't want to bog this down too much.

The APC thing will come along, but its development will definitely be different from OTL. Notice the use of the A17 Tetrarch as the basis. There is some method in my madness.

Have some reservations on the Tetrarch but will wait and see. Vivian Loyd should still be at Vickers ITTL so i'm guessing he is involved somehow.

That's a hell of a tank. We may not need the Challenger II upgrade after all!

Its basically a Panther but with a big CS gun shoved into some of them. An upgrade will still be looked at though, if the chance to upgrade from a Panther to a Centurion came up I doubt many would decline.

Beefy posts are good posts, don't want any of that weedy plant based rubbish. Thanks

I'm always up for a beefy post, the option does stand for a gun based one and you are very much welcome.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Out of curiosity, how bad/good were the Italian trucks? Wiki on them is that they were made into the 50s. The 4 cylinder 80 hp diesel is interesting. I could see copying or at least looking at the features, fuel injection, air filters etc for British industry. That 4 cylinder truck diesel would be perfect for the APCs that Vickers is looking at. Common fuel for the armoured formations.

One over the tracks on each side? Good weight distribution for a swimming version (Duplex Drive). Same 160hp as the A17.

The APC thing will come along, but its development will definitely be different from OTL. Notice the use of the A17 Tetrarch as the basis. There is some method in my madness. - allancameron

 

[Bougnas]

Its basically a Panther but with a big CS gun shoved into some of them. An upgrade will still be looked at though, if the chance to upgrade from a Panther to a Centurion came up I doubt many would decline.

More like a mass-produced Sherman Jumbo with a 76 so far. Short of actually pushing the armor piercing capability to 17pdr standard the 75 L70 will still be leagues above the Vickers HV gun, and while the frontal armor could indeed match the Panther's, the sides are a good deal thicker with this Infantry tank. Unless the Meteor is mounted it still uses a 500hp and less compact engine, so the P/W ratio won't be worse than a Panther with the derated 580hp engine (since the Victor is lighter). The suspension capability is still much higher on a Panther, though the engine can't really exploit that.

The Victor still is a lower-scale tank than the Panther, but closer to the level of 1943-44 heavy mediums, be they production or prototypes (Jumbo and Soviet T-43). The big difference is that unlike the Panther and the Sherman it has a more efficient layout thanks to the more conventionnal engine and rear drive, albeit not as efficient as the T-43 (diesel, rear drive AND torsion bar).

The engine bay and IIRC 66" turret ring and generally firepower are the major bottlenecks for the Victor and a new tank will have to be designed to get around those (you could just upscale the Victor for that). Overall though it should be smaller and lighter than the OTL Cent.

 

[edgeworthy]

Thanks for that. You wouldn't a source by any chance. Getting info on these things can be problematic.

Thanks again everyone.
Allan

And one for the anti-tank gun

WorldWar2.ro - 75mm DT-UDR 26 anti-tank gun model 1943

www.worldwar2.ro

Edit: the Muzzle Velocity for the 17pdr and the 77mm HV was much lower than the Romanian design.
785 m/s for the 77mm APCBC, compared to 1,030 m/s for the Atk Resita. Which should mean a much longer barrel life.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75:17-pounder-anti-tank-gun&catid=40:anti-tank&Itemid=58

The Vickers Model 1931 was produced in the standard British 3" (76.2mm) Calibre. It was used by the Finns, so a version similar to the 77mm HV is not entirely implausible. (Hopefully with someone putting better thought into an HE round.)

 

[MarcH]

The unstoppable tank. It must feel for Graziani that he's facing a steam roller. I am presuming that he's thinking the same here as OTL, only its happening quicker and more comprehensively. The battle of Beda Fomm is likely to be a bit different here.

The quicker part is the key here. OTL the Italians were at least able to react in somewhat of a timely manner. TTL the British have been moving so fast that responding must have felt like an impossibility. The inability to keep up with what the British have been doing will likely be more psychologically draining and damaging than OTL.

The difference re Benghazi is that it is within range of aircraft, and it takes the Royal Navy longer at sea to get there and back. With the arrival of the Luftwaffe, the RN is starting to feel the heat. HMS Illustrious is knocked out as a carrier, so I wonder if Cunningham will be looking at Tobruk much more as the primary port rather than Benghazi, especially if the Luftwaffe make it to North Africa.

If the Army has a chance to push the Italians out of North Africa and the only way it can work is to supply the Army by sea from Benghazi as much as possible the Royal Navy will do it. The mentality of the Royal Navy in this time period is kind of frightening, it was Cunningham who was determined not to "Let the army down" OTL and his famous phrase about ships and traditions surely doesn't need repeating. That's not to say the Royal Navy will run ships to Benghazi just to show off, they weren't idiots and if no advance is continuing the Tobruk is the likely port of resupply for the majority of supplies.

One of the differences here is that the speed of the British over OTL means that some of the reinforcements sent to Cyrenaica, which were then ultimately lost at Beda Fomm, haven't been sent. So the Italians are actually a bit stronger in Tripoli than they would be otherwise.

Does that mean they are going to feel more confident in defending against further British advances or are the going to be looking to save more troops f the British carry on the Advance. As it stands Britain has comprehensively beaten the Italians everywhere they have fought. The Italians will soon be thinking if they aren't already about what to do if the British advance continues. Yes they can try and fight but will they be able to draw let alone win? it would probably seen very unlikely right now. The alternative is to get those troops out before they are lost as well. If the end result is going to be Tripoli falls why let it fall and loose even more troops? Just something for you to think about. Now if the Germans arrive that might change things but the question is can the Germans get there in time, it took 2 months for the Germans to get even light forces to North Africa in OTL so even if they set off a week or two early they are still over a month away. Will the Italians think they can get there in time.

I need to do more research on the Greek campaign before I can comment fully, but, realistically, having better British tanks there might help a bit. But, I'm not sure it will be enough.

The Greek campaign was lost before it Began. Britain did not have enough formations to send to be of realistic use and the attitudes of the Greeks made an effective defence almost impossible.

It sucks to be Mussolini at this point, especially once East Africa falls. His position at home must be shaky after all these set backs. But a Peace Treaty with Honour, at the moment, I can't see it. Maybe, speak to me if Tripoli falls.

Mussolini trying to do a peace deal with the British is incredibly unlikely even if Tripoli falls within the next few months. As it stands he has Germany on his doorstep and they can intervene to keep Italy in the war far faster than the British can send troops to help fight the Germans. He will also likely look at the situation and realise he has made his bed and will have to lie in it. As it stands he has tied himself to these military adventures, he was the one who went to war, he was the one who attacked. Suddenly going oops that was a mistake isn't going to go down well and a lot of people, especially those who lost loved ones will be rightfully angry. His best bet is to ride out the storm and hope the Germans can bail him out in the fullness of time. That's part of why I was speculating about withdrawing troops from North Africa above, the political cost of loosing them is probably higher than the cost of saving them but loosing North Africa.

Again, I think that's an accurate assessment. Not sure that the Germans won't be sent. Their orders were to defend Tripoli. Rommel decided to defend Tripoli from the Suez canal! You're earlier point about not getting much further than they did is true. Yes, 7th Armoured Division will be in a stronger position. Makes what happens in March kind of interesting.

Two weeks is a long time in politics, three is an eternity. I'm probably going to make another post about the considerations Britain has about the Mediterranean because it is complicated. The gist is that if O'Connor gets even part of his formation back on the advance it becomes very hard to stop him politically. This is made more true by the existence in Britain of trained and equipped formations that could be sent to Greece instead of the formations from XIII corps at least initially.

 

[nepcotevalley]

So in this TL Winston may not be able to hamstring O'connor and XIII Corps ? The butterflies resulting from that could be absolutely massive.

 

[Atrophied]

There is another armored divison forming in egypt wich can be sent to greece instead and there is also that armored brigade of matildas that was mentioned before compass aswell . And there should be a decent amount of valiants aswell to be honest since its february here?

The main change should be that the 7th armored should be in alot better condition since compass will end earlier and this will give extra time to refit troops and gear with.

I still maintain that there isnt a political will by the greeks to evacuate to the southern defensive lines and especially from albania by the greeks but the solution i can come up with is demanding that the greeks defend their main armies flank from yugoslavia and bulgaria by assinging a divison or two so they dont end up surrending like 80% of their army to a freaking battalion of german forces when they got behind the greeks and cut off the two passes back into greece at the start of the invasion almost.

If they can slow down the first german forces but get owned or scared by the panzers a few days later it could finally trigger a evacuation to the southern defensive lines wich could give atleast a week or two extra to evacuate and maybe even more since greek forces were very extensive and they would have local knowledge about flanking stuff wich was the main issue with the brits in defending asfar i can tell and not enough troops.

In otl at crete over 40k greeks surrendered with the brits , here i propose the numbers be even bigger and they could be very useful during the italian invasions manpower wise . And the greeks are a target for italian gear even now and especially after the evacuation so they can be reorganized since they will be like dunkirk troops wich takes time and resources to reorganize and the brits dont have much to spare altough i would prefer them be equipped with us lend-lease mainly ?

 

[allanpcameron]

Operation Compass, Part 8.

16 – 25 January 1941.

General Mackay’s experience in Derna had left him livid. The fact that the Italian Air Force had left his Division alone for the most part was a relief. Having watched the divisional transport working its way through Derna and up the road to the top of the escarpment, his only thought was it was worse than a circus. All it would take would be one squadrons of Stukas, and the whole Division would come to an agonising stop. The Luftwaffe would have had a field day, there was almost no anti-aircraft defence beyond Bren guns. There was no effort to enforce normal road discipline among the vehicles. He tore a strip off his own Divisional HQ transport commander. If the HQ didn’t follow proper procedures, no wonder the rest of the Division didn’t. The Army Service Corps had been doing tremendous work, but they’d become particularly complacent about the absence of a threat from the air.

The fact that the Luftwaffe had arrived in Sicily and had given the Royal Navy a black eye had to be noted. His memorandum to the Division was scathing about the way the road was clogged by officers driving about in unauthorised captured Fiats, burning Australian Government petrol, and undermining the work done by the engineers to get the road opened to allow the Division to advance. The Italians would probably try to hinder the progress of the Division, and it was essential that the men of 6th Australian Division didn’t aid them by a failure to properly follow the established procedures. The memorandum made it very clear that the Military Police were to enforce road discipline and that any breaches of it would be severely punished.

Roads would be difficult to maintain, and the Division’s supply vehicles would need the roads to keep the Division moving. Mackay didn’t mention the damage done by the tracks of the Valiant Infantry Tanks which tended to tear up the already flimsy road surface. He was just glad he had them, though some kind of tank-transporter would be useful to save some of the wear on the tanks and the roads.

For the next week the 17th and 19th Brigade made steady progress, with regular contacts with Italian rear-guards and halts imposed by the need for the Divisional engineers to clear mines, fill in craters in roads and fix broken bridges and destroyed culverts.

The Australians had thought that the Italian settler population might give them problems, and they did, in not in the expected way. The local Arab population, having been mistreated for so long were taking advantage of the Italian army disappearing. Settler properties were being raided and goods and possessions stolen, the settlers were generally unarmed and in fear for their lives. When the settlers found that the Australians weren’t coming raping and pillaging, then they were welcomed, in so far as they brought law and order, protecting the settlers from the natives.

It was clear to both Brigade Commanders, Horace Robertson (19th) and Stanley Savige (17th) that the only way to keep up with the Italians, was to use as much motor transport to move forward one or two battalions at a time. The Australian infantry were footsore and weary from all their marching, boots and socks being worn down and most of the men suffered from some problem with their feet. Mackay agreed, realising that there were dangers in doing so, the danger of dividing one’s force was always a lesson to be wary of. An order of march was formulated where a force consisting of elements of the Divisional Cavalry, a troop of Infantry Tanks, and a battalion of infantry in lorries, with a battery of field guns and an engineering company would move as quickly along as possible. When an Italian rear-guard or demolition caused the column to halt, the troop-carrying lorries would return to the main force and pick up the next battalion. By the time this arrived, the road-block would be cleared, and the column would advance, essentially each battalion would leap-frog each other.

This method put a great strain on the Division’s vehicles, and once more the captured Italian lorries helped with this. At least the movement forward of the Australian Brigades was managing to keep closer tabs on the retreating Italians. For some of the British officers of XIII Corps could see the Australians as the hounds harrying and chasing the fox into the trap awaiting it.

The delay in building up the extra supplies in Field Supply Depot had meant that the two Armoured Brigades were sitting on their heels at Mechili for almost a week. When the Australian 16th Infantry Brigade joined them, General O’Connor decided to wait no longer. Each Brigade were to take with them enough essential supplies for 48 hours and move to their objectives. The progress of the 6th Australian Division showed and the aerial reconnaissance confirmed that the Italians were abandoning Cyrenaica. Blocking their exit would mean that any future progress would not be hindered by having to fight a foe that should already have been destroyed.

The first fifty miles of the movement towards the coast from Mechili was over difficult terrain, slowing the tanks and lorries. But eventually the tracks got better, even if the weather didn’t. By the end of the day on 22 January the whole force had arrived at Msus and the next morning two columns left. The first, 16th Australian Brigade and 4th Armoured Brigade continued west towards Soluch. The 7th Support Group and 7th Armoured Brigade, travelled southwest towards Agedabia via Antelat.

As Commander-in-Chief of North Africa and Governor-General of Libya, Rodolfo Graziani had realized that a withdrawal from Cyrenaica was inevitable almost as soon as Bardia fell so quickly. When the British secured the use of Tobruk, he decided to save what he could from the wreck as quickly as possible. On 4 January he reported to Mussolini that he intended to withdraw the remains of 10th Army to the vicinity of Sirte, where General Gariboldi, commanding in Tripoli, had been instructed to organize the defences. The next day he ordered General Tellera to take over command of all forces in eastern Libya, with the task of withdrawing from Cyrenaica and reassembling in Sirtica. Graziani himself left Benghazi by road on 5 January.

As if the situation in Cyrenaica were not bad enough, Graziani also received disquieting news from Rome of sinister stirrings in Algeria and of a possible British intention to attempt a landing in French North Africa. Mussolini himself sent him a warning against French dissidents. The presence of Weygand, although he was not a follower of de Gaulle, was regarded with great misgivings. The need to keep one eye on the French, while trying to stop the British from sweeping up the Mediterranean coast, seemed next to impossible. Reassurances from Rome however also arrived. In addition to the Ariete Armoured Division and the Trento Motorized Division being shipped to Tripoli, Hitler had decided to support the Italian Empire. Already the Luftwaffe were based on Sicily, and had achieved great results against the Royal Navy. German anti-aircraft units would begin arriving in Tripoli just as soon as ships could be formed into a protected convoy. German ground troops were also likely to arrive to stiffen the defences of Libya. Exactly when this would happen depended on a number of different factors. What was important, was that the British be stopped.

General Giuseppe Tellera, having been informed that the British had overwhelmed his mobile counter-attack force at Mechili, knew that his lines of communication were threatened. It was now a matter of a race. If he could get the majority of his men and equipment, especially the artillery, along the road through Benghazi to Brega, then the work being done by Gariboldi would be greatly strengthened. If the whole of 10th Army were lost, then stopping the British would be a matter more of luck and logistics than anything else. Tellera appealed for more air support, it seemed that the RAF ruled the skies above him, and it was disheartening for the men. Looking at the maps, tracing the probable movement of the British from Mechili it looked as if he would need to put some kind of blocking force in the vicinity of Agedabia. The 27th Infantry Division "Brescia" were already through Benghazi. Contacting General Giuseppe Cremascoli, Tellera ordered him to stop at Agebadia and prepare to act as a rear-guard for the rest of the surviving 10th Army to pass through. Cremascoli had permission to attach units passing him to strengthen any weaknesses in his Division’s resources.

While this was a perfectly good plan, by the time Tellera and Cremascoli had made the arrangements, they had already lost the race. The first units of 4th Armoured Brigade had reached the fort at Sceleidima in the late morning of 23 January. This Italian position controlled the track down the escarpment that allowed access to the main coast road. Brigadiers Caunter and Eather had decided to split their force up into three columns. Each Armoured Regiment paired off with an Australian Infantry Battalion. The 6th Bn RTR, A10 tanks were the slowest, were left at Msus along with 2/3rd Bn 16th Brigade. Once the 2nd RGH in their Valiant I* tanks and 2/1st Bn 16th Brigade, along with the majority of the artillery assets had cut the road, the transport would return and bring 2/3rd Battalion forward with 6th Bn RTR. The 7th Hussars were the weakest of Caunter’s Regiments, the A9s had suffered a number of casualties and were the tanks with the thinnest armour, so they along with 2/2nd Battalion they would follow the first column ready to back them up. At Sceleidima the Italians held out for just over an hour before being overwhelmed. Leaving the 7th Hussars group to deal with the aftermath, 2nd RGH and 2/1st Battalion continued westwards reaching Soluch and Ghemines by early evening.

At Ghemines they caught the tail of 27th Infantry Division "Brescia" passing through. As most of the Italian Division’s infantry were travelling in convoy with a minimum of armoured cars or tankettes providing security, the combined tank and infantry force met little resistance and soon much of the Italian convoy were flying white flags, and being guided off the road into a laager where B Company of 2/1st Battalion were organising their prisoners.

Soluch was at the end of a railway that stretched from there, through Benghazi to Barce. When the 6th Bn RTR came forward on the evening of 23 January, with 2/3rd Battalion, they stopped at Soluch, with the intention of advancing northwards following the rail-line towards Benghazi.

The 7th Support Group and 7th Armoured Brigade, travelling southwest reached Antelat mid-afternoon of 23 January. Here the 8th Hussars (A9 tanks) began patrolling north and south while 3rd Sharpshooters (Valiant I* tanks) passed through Beda Fomm and cut the road from Benghazi. This was now the third time they had fulfilled this role, after Bardia and Tobruk, and with the men of the Rifle Brigade they knew exactly what to do. The 1st Bn RTR (A10 tanks) with the 1st Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps carried on towards Agedabia. Here the intention was not only to cut the road, but also to keep an eye out for any reinforcements coming up from the direction of Sirte.

Just as 4th Armoured Brigade had caught the tail of 27th Infantry Division "Brescia" so 7th Armoured Brigade’s 3rd Sharpshooters caught another element of that Division, with the same results. The Italians were surprised, and unable to deploy to meet the attack properly, so some units put up some resistance, but the rest ‘went into the bag’.

The arrival of 1st Bn RTR at Agedabia in the early evening found the forward elements of 27th Infantry Division "Brescia" digging in as ordered. The fact that the British tanks and infantry arrived almost simultaneously with the Italians meant that this was only a brief exchange of fire. Before they could get properly into the fight, the British tanks appeared at the Italian artillery gun line. While a few tanks were destroyed by point blank fire from guns already emplaced, the rest of the Italians didn’t have time to do much more than either try to run, or raise their hands in surrender.

With the complete 27th Infantry Division "Brescia" now incapable of acting as the rear-guard, more of the 10th Army rolled down the road from Benghazi during the night into the waiting arms of the British and Australian forces.

When the sun rose on the morning of 24 January, General Tellera was informed, not only that the road had been cut by the British, but also that the Australians moving from Barce were likely to be at Benghazi by that night at the latest. Reports that a strong force was moving up towards Benghazi from Soluch along the railway line left the Italian general with no options. He had no real armoured punch to break through the British to the south, and short of making a last stand in Benghazi itself, he could see no option but to surrender. He sent out messengers asking for terms from the British commander. General Creagh at Msus and General Mackay at Barce both got the message at roughly the same time.

Consultations with General O’Connor were quickly made and both the GOCs of 7th Armoured Division and 6th Australian Division were driven into Benghazi under a flag of truce to complete the negotiations. With the general hopelessness of the situation, the fact that Tellera had decided to capitulate rather than fight it out, provided the British and Australians the chance to offer an honourable deal, as long as the Italians didn’t damage or destroy any important structures in Benghazi harbour or any large stocks of material. General Tellera accepted the terms and all Italian resistance in Cyrenaica ceased at midnight on 25 January 1941.

Once more XIII Corps found themselves outnumbered by POWs. Some 25000 Italian troops were processed in the days following the surrender of Benghazi. Getting them all back to Egypt was going to be a nightmare. As promised, the harbour at Benghazi was fully functional, and plenty of water, petrol and food was available to look after the needs of both the Italian prisoners and the British and Australians.

NB Text in italic differs from OTL. The map is obviously OTL, but it shows the places involved. The changes at Mechili in the previous post means that 10th Army have far fewer tanks. So the OTL battle of Beda Fomm isn't going to happen the way it did. The British/Australian force arriving to cut off the Italians is also much more powerful. So the destruction of 27th Division seemed to me to be a realistic alternative. The overall surrender is different, but my thinking is that the speed and power of the British victory would have made Tellera more open to this ending of Operation Compass.

 

[kelgar04]

Mussolini and the Italian General Staff are going to have a fit when they hear about this defeat and with the Port facilities at Benghazi, it means more supplies can be moved closer to the frontline adding to this it extends the RAFs ability to provide air cover since they also took the airport there intact as well. This should make it a whole lot easier to both supply the armoured operations as well as extend air cover to them as well which will have a knock-on effect for future operations in North Africa.

 

[Schlock]

With the Behnghazi and Tobruk port facilities completely intact, how much supplies can O'Connor get to the spearhead by sea? That is going to make a massive difference to operations in the near future, since the armoured forces still sound like they have a bit of go left in them. The big question is, is it enough to get XIII Corps to Tripoli before the Germans get involved?

 

[kelgar04]

Someone posted the numbers up somewhere but given that they were taken wholly intact they can be put back into service with a minimum of effort between the Army and Navy which means they can start building up supply heads a lot more rapidly compared to OTL adding to the fuel reserves taken intact it should ease the logistics burden considerably in that area.