Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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The whole affect is cumulative. More time to make a decision leads to better decisions being made generally. More equipment to allocate to the forces means decisions are easier to make so less time is wasted making them again leading to better decisions. The extra freedom this is granting commander means more time can be spent on the smaller details, again improving the force as a whole.
There's also the hope factor to take into account. More successes earlier, combined with the captured German tanks from earlier, the much better displays from our own tanks and so on means that everybody, from the average person in the streets back home to the soldiers getting ready for a fight in Africa to their commanders to the highest offices of government have more hope and less panic.

Trying to guess how much that would influence things, exactly, is impossible but it would be a factor.
 
There's also the hope factor to take into account. More successes earlier, combined with the captured German tanks from earlier, the much better displays from our own tanks and so on means that everybody, from the average person in the streets back home to the soldiers getting ready for a fight in Africa to their commanders to the highest offices of government have more hope and less panic.

Trying to guess how much that would influence things, exactly, is impossible but it would be a factor.
Hm, I'd guess the government would be willing to deploy more units overseas, as the better tanks have proven that the Germans aren't quite as tough as they first appeared, so they don't need huge numbers held back to repel an invasion.
 
More successes earlier, combined with the captured German tanks from earlier, the much better displays from our own tanks and so on means that everybody,
There's no myth of the invincible panzer now. Those captured panzers have been thoroughly tested and in comparison to the Valiants and Matilda IIs found wanting.
 
There's no myth of the invincible panzer now. Those captured panzers have been thoroughly tested and in comparison to the Valiants and Matilda IIs found wanting.
Yeah, they couldn't take the British tanks head-on, even when they had artillery and aircraft. During an invasion, they won't have artillery, and air support will be limited, so, no chance.
 
The morale effect cuts both ways, the Germans will also be less confident, more likely to hesitate and pause rather than assume that they can bull through. The improved reliability of the British tanks will also enable them to be more effective force multipliers on the defensive as they will be able to blunt more than one attack before breaking down.
 
The morale effect cuts both ways, the Germans will also be less confident, more likely to hesitate and pause rather than assume that they can bull through. The improved reliability of the British tanks will also enable them to be more effective force multipliers on the defensive as they will be able to blunt more than one attack before breaking down.
There's also those three Valiants that showed up in France, just long enough to give that German armoured formation an absolute pasting, then being sent home, along with their spoils. So the Germans know Britain has a new tank, but don't really know anything about its capabilities, other than it's tough, fast and deadly.
 

Orry

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There's also those three Valiants that showed up in France, just long enough to give that German armoured formation an absolute pasting, then being sent home, along with their spoils. So the Germans know Britain has a new tank, but don't really know anything about its capabilities, other than it's tough, fast and deadly.

Do they even know that except for British news reels?

Did any Germans who eccounted the Valiants in a meaningful way get away?

The Germans will have captured Matilda I & II slow Infantry tanks and fast Cruiser tanks - why believe the British sent 3 experimental tanks to France for a Day trip when it is more probable that there were a mix of both tanks in the fight and people got confused.
 
There's also those three Valiants that showed up in France, just long enough to give that German armoured formation an absolute pasting, then being sent home, along with their spoils. So the Germans know Britain has a new tank, but don't really know anything about its capabilities, other than it's tough, fast and deadly.
They know a lot less than you think. The Germans lost that fight, a lot of the men of that german armoured formation ar dead or captured, At the most the germans have, is the reports of the few survivors that got a way, mostly young soldiers that know little about the different marks of britsh tanks, execpt that it sucks when they start shooting at you and you own tanks and/or AT/guns can´t stop them.
 
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The situation Britain finds itself in, while definitely better than the OTL situation, is still far from ideal. The fact Britain knows they can fight and beat the panzers does have benefits as other posters have pointed out, it is only part of the equation. When comparing to OTL Britain not only has more tanks but more usable tanks, the fact the covenanter got cancelled is a further big help, not only because it was rubbish but also because many were completed without guns. The thing is Britain is likely going to find itself in a similar situation ITTL with the A15 potentially being finished without a 2pdr at least initially. That being said Britain will be building up quite the Matilda II force at home and given how that tank performed against the Germans I suspect that many in Britain will feel comfortable with that as a shield.
Even with all that though Britain only has so many tanks and men trained to use them to pass around at this point. Not everywhere can get the attention it needs right now, the hope is that, due to the differences from OTL, the differing priorities ITTL lead to a far better situation for Britain. There is only so much you can gain though.
 

marathag

Banned
The morale effect cuts both ways, the Germans will also be less confident, more likely to hesitate and pause rather than assume that they can bull through. The improved reliability of the British tanks will also enable them to be more effective force multipliers on the defensive as they will be able to blunt more than one attack before breaking down.
Right around this time, Soviet Attache were asking to shown their best tank, and they showed off the Mk IV, and the Soviets were like
'Come on, show us your best tank, not this'
OTL that was blown off, as Soviets acting, well, like Soviets. and Germans had no clue that the Soviets were building the 45 ton KV-1 since 1939 and the T-34 this year
This TL, the Axis got their asses kicked far worse than OTL in France and North Africa

There may be some more soul searching(or panic) about the that state of the Panzer arm, that doesn't have the luster of total victory in France
 
It was still a total victory actually , basicly things got delayed by a day or two mainly in france and maybe they had abit more casualties and the british evacuated a divison that surrendered in the 2nd part of the invasion and that the 1st armored divison was withdrawn and still had atleast a brigade of tanks surviving wich probably helped with the panic and thats it more or less so germans wouldnt be very worried are the main changes actually. British decisions when they were in the war alone werent optimal at all thanks to the invasion panic and here this should be lessened even at first. The only thing i could see the british using their tanks better than otl is maybe quickening tiger and panther a little bit atleast as a answer to infantry tanks rather than getting the task from encountering soviet tanks. t34 and kv-1s were very big suprises to the germans and not good ones .

A faster compass isnt a massive departure from otl aswell since it ends at about the same place as otl and they will get distracted with greece wich will probably eat enough logistics that tripoli campaign wont start soon . My thought is maybe start around barbarossa or abit earlier maybe may at best with the 2nd part of the desert campaign ? Also a realistic change considering that this has been very minor pod wise outside tanks atleast is to suggest to the greeks to keep a flank divison or two to protect their supply lines back to greece when in otl they got cut off by like a battalion of motorized infantry cause there hasnt been enough change to do more extensive changes . The flank divison would trigger enough of a warning and slowing down of germans hopefully that most of the greek army can be evacuated to the south to fight with the british on the defensive lines and maybe delaying the fall for a week or two i think wich would get most of the british evacuated outside a rearguard i guess and alot more greeks evacuated who could be very useful for garrisoning the islands in the eastern med and maybe even provide a corps sized formation for the italian invasion maybe ?
 
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marathag

Banned
The only thing i could see the british using their tanks better than otl is maybe quickening tiger and panther a little bit atleast as a answer to infantry tanks
More like the earlier versions that were a bit lighter than the OTL Tiger, like the Durchbruchswagen,
pretty much a more heavily armored(50mm) Mk IV with the short 75mm and the VK3001H
1616338735296.jpeg
1616338993192.jpeg

and torsion bar suspension. And handful of prototypes were made OTL over 1940-41
with more emphasis on the VK3601 after France, that later grew into OTLs Tiger
 
A faster compass isnt a massive departure from otl aswell since it ends at about the same place as otl and they will get distracted with greece wich will probably eat enough logistics that tripoli campaign wont start soon . My thought is maybe start around barbarossa or abit earlier maybe may at best with the 2nd part of the desert campaign ? Also a realistic change considering that this has been very minor pod wise outside tanks atleast is to suggest to the greeks to keep a flank divison or two to protect their supply lines back to greece when in otl they got cut off by like a battalion of motorized infantry cause there hasnt been enough change to do more extensive changes . The flank divison would trigger enough of a warning and slowing down of germans hopefully that most of the greek army can be evacuated to the south to fight with the british on the defensive lines and maybe delaying the fall for a week or two i think wich would get most of the british evacuated outside a rearguard i guess and alot more greeks evacuated who could be very useful for garrisoning the islands in the eastern med and maybe even provide a corps sized formation for the italian invasion maybe ?
It's not just a faster Compass, but that the British are very likely to hold, so the capture of Tripoli has been moved forward by a year or more over OTL. Plus, retaining Crete makes the Eastern Mediterranean a lot more secure for British shipping.
 
It's not just a faster Compass, but that the British are very likely to hold, so the capture of Tripoli has been moved forward by a year or more over OTL. Plus, retaining Crete makes the Eastern Mediterranean a lot more secure for British shipping.
Also allows for a force in being. Even if Crete is only hosting three dozen old Wellington's they can still pound the Romanian oil fields if unchecked. That forces Germany to keep a load of 109's or 190's in the area to counter them that aren't deployed in the East or say over Hamburg where the Allies best forces are striking.

Also (as a second attempt is unlikely given the OTL success wiped out the paratroopers and JU-52's) it allows Greece to claim to still be in the fight on home soil and is useful for allied propaganda efforts.
 
18 February 1941. Giarabub, Libya.
18 February 1941. Giarabub, Libya.

The Italian outpost had been something of a thorn in the flesh of the British forces in Egypt. There was a garrison of 1,340 Italian and 800 colonial troops, under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Salvatore Castagna, the last Italian outpost in Cyrenaica and a danger to the Long Range Desert Group, among others. Despite all the efforts to convince Castagna that his position was hopeless, it was clear that the place would need to be taken by force. Elements of the 6th Australian Cavalry Regiment had been keeping an eye on the place, and doing a good job in convincing the Italians that they were surrounded and threatened by a much larger force than actually existed. The problem was that the force needed to overcome the Italians had to be considerable. It would therefore need considerable resources to supply and maintain it. Resources that that were overstretched already, and needed elsewhere.

Since the beginning of Operation Compass, the New Zealand 4th Brigade had been part of the Masra Matruh garrison, and had been quite annoyed to have been left out of the fighting. Brigadier Edward Puttock had been pestering General Wavell for a chance to have his men have a chance to put their training to good use. Word had come that the 5th Brigade of New Zealanders was due to arrive from England in early March, to join 4th and 6th Brigades, so that the 2nd New Zealand Division would be complete. Wavell had it in mind that the New Zealanders would be part of the force reserved for going to Greece if and when that became necessary. Consulting with General Freyberg, it was agreed that, while waiting for the rest of the Division’s arrival, 4th Brigade would be given the task to clear the last Italian position in Cyrenaica. This would also release the Australian Cavalry who would also need time to get ready for Greece, if that was their next mission.

Getting from Marsa Matruh to Giarabub, a journey of some 200 miles, was done in stages over a couple of days, as there was only enough transport to move one Battalion at a time. The Brigade was accompanied by 4th Field Regiment’s 25-pdr guns; a squadron of the New Zealand Divisional Cavalry Regiment, with Marmon-Harrington armoured cars; and a troop of A11 Matilda tanks being carried on improvised tank transporters. These were three captured Italian diesel lorries towing trailers created by some enterprising engineers using old railway flat cars as the basis. The New Zealanders had been informed that the Italian position was protected by barbed wire emplacements that would probably need something like tank support for the infantry to overcome it. The 51st Bn RTR were happy to offer their support, on the condition that the tanks could be transported, otherwise they would be unable to make the journey.

Ever since the fall of Benghazi, the Australians had been discovering more and more of the Libyan soldiers deserting the position, even a few Italians. The garrison’s rations, which relied on being flown in, had been cut to a bare minimum. The fact that the rest of the Italian forces had been cleared out of Cyrenaica, leaving them as nothing more than a propaganda exercise, had left the garrison’s morale very poor.

An initial approach, on the day the main New Zealander force arrived, had been made under a flag of truce by Brigadier Puttock to get the Italians to surrender. This had been rebuffed, and so from dawn the next day the New Zealand artillery men began to bombard the Italian position. By the nature of the journey they’d made, there was a limited amount of ammunition, but what they had was put to good use. The Australians had done a lot of reconnaissance and had been able to pick a way through the marshy ground that protected the Italian position from the south. 20th Battalion, led by Colonel Kippenberger, worked their way through the difficult going during the previous day and night, so that when the main assault was ready, the Italians would find themselves being assaulted from more than one direction, splitting their defensive fire.

The armoured cars began the morning by demonstrating their presence and, with a company from 18th Battalion, using the Brigade’s three carrier platoons as transport, took over the hangers on the landing ground. While no aircraft had been landing there since the Australian cavalry had destroyed an aircraft, the fact that it was now in the hands of the New Zealanders was another blow to Italian morale, and drove a wedge into the Italian position.

While the armoured cars and carriers achieved their objective, the three infantry tanks were showing themselves clearly, trying to keep the eyes of the garrison on the northerly approach, while Kippenberger’s men took the heights above the Italian garrison as stealthily as possible. When Brigadier Puttock got word that Kippenberger’s men were ready, the artillery began their pre-arranged fire-plan.

The rest of 18th Battalion moved up towards the landing ground to provide covering fire from a westerly direction and act as another threat for the Italian artillery to have to counter and divide their fire between. 19th Battalion, along with the three Matilda tanks, began to move forward behind the artillery barrage. With all this going on, and attracting the full attention of the Italian gunners, 20th Battalion began their assault from the south. This led to the hardest fighting of the day, the Italians had positions that were dug into the hills and knolls that protected the southern side of the position. Kippenberger’s men had the lion’s share of the Brigade’s 3-inch mortars and a company of heavy machine gunners to support them. With the artillery supporting the attack from the north, 20th Battalion needed something to give them an edge.

The men of 19th Battalion found themselves under sustained heavy fire, and the three tanks proceeded primarily on their own. The tanks were too small to provide any more than a few men with cover, and one of the tanks suffered a near miss from an Italian shell that stripped one of its tracks. The crew however remained in the tank and used the pompom gun to great effect. The other two tanks, once again proving themselves immune to Italian anti-tank weapons, reached and breeched the barbed wire. There they halted, giving covering fire while the infantry rushed up. While still under heavy fire, they started to clear out the Italian defensive positions in front of the fort one by one.

When the southern redoubt fell to 20th Battalion in the middle of the morning, the Italian commander realised the game was up. The two Matilda tanks’ guns had stripped the fort of its gates and as the New Zealanders moved up behind one of the tanks, firing from within the fort, and the nearby village ceased. The Italian flag was lowered, and the position was taken by the New Zealand Brigade, with the aid of the Australian cavalry squadron and the British tank troop. The New Zealanders lost seventeen killed and seventy-seven wounded, mostly in 20th Battalion’s hand to hand fighting in the south. The Italians had some 200 killed and many more wounded. 1300 prisoners were taken, as well as over thirty artillery pieces, from 20mm anti-air guns to 77mm field pieces. Over a million rounds of small-arms ammunition was discovered, and more than 10000 shells for the guns was captured intact.

The New Zealanders had a day of rest to get themselves and their prisoners and wounded organised. Their transport began carrying them back towards the delta, but it would take the best part of a week for the whole force, along with their captives and booty, to reach the Alexandria area. The Long Range Desert Group, with a group of Senussi tribesmen, the Libyan Force, took possession of the former Italian position.

NB: This is a month earlier than OTL, when it was a Battalion of Australians who captured the position, without the aid of tanks.
 
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Also allows for a force in being. Even if Crete is only hosting three dozen old Wellington's they can still pound the Romanian oil fields if unchecked. That forces Germany to keep a load of 109's or 190's in the area to counter them that aren't deployed in the East or say over Hamburg where the Allies best forces are striking.

Also (as a second attempt is unlikely given the OTL success wiped out the paratroopers and JU-52's) it allows Greece to claim to still be in the fight on home soil and is useful for allied propaganda efforts.
More than that, it allows allied commando efforts all through the Aegean.
 
More like the earlier versions that were a bit lighter than the OTL Tiger, like the Durchbruchswagen,
pretty much a more heavily armored(50mm) Mk IV with the short 75mm and the VK3001H
View attachment 635124View attachment 635128
and torsion bar suspension. And handful of prototypes were made OTL over 1940-41
with more emphasis on the VK3601 after France, that later grew into OTLs Tiger
Sadly both designs were absolutely screwed. VK 30.01's turret could not actually accept the long 75s like the Pz IV did without more extenisve modifications. The Pz IV pretty much outpaced the VK 30.

The VK 36.01 was designed with a squeezebore gun in mind, and the proposal to fit a 75mm L60 or 70 turret came too late to be done before the VK 45.01 was ready.

There was just no way to make those designs relevant after 1940. If encountering more Valiants had any impact, it would be accelerating the long 75 programs and possibly killing the VK 20. series to make way for the VK 30.02s early enough.
 
How will the Germans respond to the Battle of France.

Well to begin with they can be very happy with how it went, as @Atrophied points out it was a total victory. That being said however the British actions will likely have changed things ITTL for the Germans. Before getting to the changes however it is worth pointing out that in the main the German strategy and tactics worked, for the most part. The only time they really didn't work was when they faced the British, either when the British attacked at Arras or when the British were on the defensive and this last point is the most important.
When the Germans had to attack the well organised British defenses they suffered and suffered a lot. The guns on the Panzer's were too weak to penetrate the armour of the Infantry tanks at reasonable ranges whilst the British guns were able to knock out the Panzers at will almost. This will have raised some alarm bells in the Heer high command as the only reason the Germans were able to overcome the British was weight of numbers more than anything and that is not how the Heer want's to fight.
What the do I think the Germans will do in response to the events in France and the captured British Equipment. Well I think ITTL they will move ahead with the 5cm KwK 39 on both the Panzer 3 and probably 4. The Germans will want to avoid being outgunned by their opponent's again and in addition I suspect that the Panzers will be up armoured to the 50mm standard of the later Ausf. J and Ausf. F for the 3 and 4 respectively.
Other things could well be done but these are more speculative. One thing that might be done include switching up the roles of the Panzer 3 and 4 earlier ITTL though this a maybe at best. Increased development on the 7.5cm Pak 40/ 7.5cm KwK 40, this will likely happen I think as the Germans will know that the 5cm guns won't cut it against the British heavy tanks. Finally shorter development time for the Tiger. At the time of the fall of France Germany was working on the Tiger already though these were smaller variants, one was 33 tons and the other 40. They could be finished rather than morph into the later Tiger specification.
This last point may well get some priority as a Breakthrough tank would have been very useful to the Germans in allowing them to defeat the British positions.
 
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Damn that is quite a haul of kit and with tank support there were fewer casualties as well most likely also the rear area will be more secure too.
 

marathag

Banned
Sadly both designs were absolutely screwed. VK 30.01's turret could not actually accept the long 75s like the Pz IV did without more extenisve modifications. The Pz IV pretty much outpaced the VK 30.
But the German may be under pressure like the British were, order things off the drawing board without decent testing, because they need a heavier panzer, _now_ in 1940, not 1942

So the DW2 and/or VK3001 get green lit, with later ausf to uncrew them. It took the Panzer III to go from the A to E for that to happen OTL
 
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