Malaya What If

[Butchpfd]

Hi Butchpfd, I'm unaware there were many agreements between the US and Britain regarding working together in the Far East. Previous conferences in this theatre had seen an America that was decidedly dragging its feet with regard to any military co-operation with the British or the Dutch. We have the exchange of liaison officers, and they did agree on lines of demarcation for military operations, sharing information from maritime air patrols, submarine operating areas, and more secretly, working together to crack Japanese codes. But the best Admiral Hart could do, until just before war broke out, was an agreement with the Dutch, allowing him to shift his surface fleet south into Dutch East Indies waters, away from certain destruction. There is this complete disjointed approach to defending the Philippines between him, being very realistic about his forces chances of survival, and MacArthur's view on what to do.

Any change to this historical line would be a major point of diversion, which is outside my remit, and to be honest, I find it hard to think of an alternative for the USA in this situation, without major changes to policy a good 12 months earlier, to give them any hope of doing better than they did. I think defending the Philippines is a more hopeless case than Malaya!

Oh, I agree, the only solution would have begun for USN 18 months to 2 years prior, when Hart took command. 1st. Mac Arthur never gets any power over the Navy. 2nd. It would have required the establishment of a Naval Air station at Sangley Point, Olopongo, or at Miraviles. with a carrier size air group, a Spring 1941 withdrawl from China and strengthening of 4th Marines and the 2 independent Marine Battalions converted to Defense Battalions and the Radar unit kept out of MacArthur's control. 3rd. A miracle occurs and Hart finds a way to test his subs torpedoes, and discovers any one of the MK XIV issues, most likely the depth control or firing pin issue. 4th. the early completion of the ammunition bunkers at Miravales, and the torpedoes moved there prior to 10 December 1941.
If the torpedoes at Cavite had survived, the S Boats and their functional torpedoes could have had some effect, with the torpedoes destroyed the S boats had to withdraw South after their 1st patrols, leaving about half the necessary torpedoes for the Fleet Boats on the Canopus. Once those were fired, the the Fleet boats had to move South too.

From what I have found, the destroyer agreement only went into place, when it was found how few destroyers would be accompanying Force Z, and the force was already enroute from Ceylon.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

From what I have found, the destroyer agreement only went into place, when it was found how few destroyers would be accompanying Force Z, and the force was already enroute from Ceylon.

Hi Butchpfd, I believe that agreement was with the proviso that Phillips ordered the S Class destroyers in Hong Kong, back to Singapore, which he did.

I wonder how well a division of USN destroyers would work with Z Force, in such a hasty fashion.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

1941, Monday 01 September;

“Gentleman please let me introduce you all to Major General Sydney Rowell, the new commanding officer of the 8th Australian Division”. Lord Gort led him around, handshakes and welcomes with everyone present, before they all sat down for another formal meeting of the war council

Things had happened so fast; he was still pinching himself in part disbelief. A call from Blamey, just a week ago, congratulations, your being promoted to Major General, and we’re giving you command of the 8th Division in Malaya, can you be ready to go in three days. Then a series of flights from Cairo where Blamey had seen him off, to eventually arriving in Singapore late Friday evening. That was followed by a weekend of informal chats with Gort and Percival, giving him some background on whats what.

What he wasn’t privy to was all the off-record chats that had been had in previous weeks between Gort and Lt Gen Iven Mackay, Mackay and Canberra, Canberra and Blamey in Cairo, regarding his predecessor Bennett. Relationships with Gort, Percival and others had become toxic, Bennett alienating himself from most of the British senior officers, with his manner and attitude, Vivian Bowden, the Australian Government representative in Singapore confirming this.

Finally, enroute to Australia as the new General Officer Commanding Home Forces (Australia), Mackay had met Gort in Singapore, on the 18th August, who had taken the unusual step of asking for Bennett to be replaced, all unofficial, but nevertheless, forcefully put. Canberra had agreed and Bennett was being promoted to a newly created II Corps, tasked with defending Sydney and the surrounding areas, a promotion into a backwater. Bennett hadn’t liked it one bit, but quite honestly, he’d become so disruptive that he had to go, and there was a general sigh of relief, including within the 8th Division as well, when he went.

Which left them with the question as to who might command the 8th Australian. Well, they couldn’t take one of the COs of the 6th, 7th or 9th Divisions, all of whom had been recently promoted, and they needed someone who would get on well with the British, and mend some fences. Lavarack was considered too senior, and the other candidates were in need of rest, being either physically or mentally exhausted, leaving Rowell as the front runner. It meant another shuffle as he was already slated to take up the post of Deputy Chief of the General Staff (DCGS), but that was a much smaller problem.

He was inheriting a division of two brigades quite well establish in the country and a third newly arrived, but all being asked to undertake a new role. The supporting regiments of artillery, machine gun and reconnaissance were still short of first line equipment and training. His administrative base was in Malacca, but they’d be operating in the far north of Malaya, possibly in a little operation called Matador, which he was going to learn a lot more about. ‘Syd was here’, and he was going to hit the ground running.

Taking advantage of the air flights laid on for Rowell were two newly promoted RAAF officers, transferring to Malaya. Peter Jeffrey, was a Wing Commander who was going to take command of RAAF 5 Wing, and Gordon Steege, a Squadron Leader, who was going to command RAAF 450 squadron. Both had flown with 3 RAAF Sqn, and commanded it, and knew each other very well. And rounding up the passenger list were four Indian Army captains, two each from the 4th and 5th Indian Divisions, transferring, to take promotions to Major, and second in command of Indian battalions in Malaya.

 

[general]

Bennett's gone!

 

[Driftless]

Big move. Not a great deal of time for Rowell to put his stamp on the division, but is there enough time to improve communications between command level staffers?

 

[vetinari]

Oh, dear, poor ol' Gordon's gone and he didn't do it physically himself. Now he can big note himself to his heart's content. No shame in being relieved. He has a reputation as a go-getter which he can maintain quite easily. No being shipped off to Perth. No courts-martial to contend with. He has it made. Until he next stuffs it up. He is Australia's Macarthur.

 

[Butchpfd]

Hi Butchpfd, I believe that agreement was with the proviso that Phillips ordered the S Class destroyers in Hong Kong, back to Singapore, which he did.

I wonder how well a division of USN destroyers would work with Z Force, in such a hasty fashion.

Well they have, more or less the same language and signal flags and Morse code on lamps will be fine. I believe the American DD's all had early TBS, and the RN has similar that should work too. Surface combat, the DD's had all been recently run through Cavite and Dewy Dry Dock, and could make 32+ knots, the torpedoes carried 4 x 3 x 21" were the surface model MK VIII of the Submarine MK X and worked fine as shown in several OTL engagements. The RN used MK VIIIs on their Lend Lease 4 Pipers. 4"/ 40 cal single purpose guns were fine, and the ammunition worked, AAA was weak with 1 x 3"/23 cal and 4 to 6 x .50 cal AA MG. on each ship. I would imagine since all ships in the Asiatic Fleet carried full landing party equipment and were set up the similar to USMC squads so there would be several BARs and Lewis Guns on board. ASW wise the American DD's did not have Sonar, only Hydrophones, and carried either a depth charge rack, or 4 "K" guns each for depth charges.
Operationally if they keep the division together until well worked up there should be minimal issues.

 

[jlckansas]

Could we see a Mac vs Bennett ego off?

 

[Driftless]

Could we see a Mac vs Bennett ego off?

With Monty and Patton as referees?

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Oh, dear, poor ol' Gordon's gone and he didn't do it physically himself. Now he can big note himself to his heart's content. No shame in being relieved. He has a reputation as a go-getter which he can maintain quite easily. No being shipped off to Perth. No courts-martial to contend with. He has it made. Until he next stuffs it up. He is Australia's Macarthur.

Oh Vetinari, sarcasm doesn't become you, and remember in this alternative universe, Australia may have misplaced it's hero, just before their time of need!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Could we see a Mac vs Bennett ego off?

and

With Monty and Patton as referees?

Hi Jlckansas and Driftless, good god, I hope not, but we're going to get some glimpses of the IJA and IJN love affair!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Well they have, more or less the same language and signal flags and Morse code on lamps will be fine. I believe the American DD's all had early TBS, and the RN has similar that should work too. Surface combat, the DD's had all been recently run through Cavite and Dewy Dry Dock, and could make 32+ knots, the torpedoes carried 4 x 3 x 21" were the surface model MK VIII of the Submarine MK X and worked fine as shown in several OTL engagements. The RN used MK VIIIs on their Lend Lease 4 Pipers. 4"/ 40 cal single purpose guns were fine, and the ammunition worked, AAA was weak with 1 x 3"/23 cal and 4 to 6 x .50 cal AA MG. on each ship. I would imagine since all ships in the Asiatic Fleet carried full landing party equipment and were set up the similar to USMC squads so there would be several BARs and Lewis Guns on board. ASW wise the American DD's did not have Sonar, only Hydrophones, and carried either a depth charge rack, or 4 "K" guns each for depth charges.
Operationally if they keep the division together until well worked up there should be minimal issues.

Hi Butchpfd, thank you, that really useful.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

1941, Tuesday 02 September;

It wasn’t the best port to receive a convoy, even if it was only six ships and a light cruiser, the approach was difficult with sandbanks and a narrow channel, the seaplane moorings, and there weren’t enough pilots for every ship, so some had to anchor off shore, awaiting their turn. In anticipation of their arrival, yesterday HMS St Dominic, a Saint class tug, had arrived from Singapore to help the two commercial tugs if required. Although there were 7 wharfs, realistically only three could be used because of the size of the ships, so the others anchored in the roads, awaiting a spare berth.

Port Swettenham was seeing changes, just like all the other major ports, with extra railway sidings, more godown’s and the extension of a wharf. In addition, there was the recruitment of extra stevedores and the training of two new port pilots. While the nearby civil airfield was also seeing expansions, with new hangers, barracks, aircraft pens etc being built, to accommodate one squadron, two at a push.

Convoy BM.8 was from Bombay, having left on the 24 August, carrying the 28th Indian (Gurkha) Brigade and other units. However, on arrival the brigade was being broken up, Brigadier Willian Carpendale, HQ and Lt Col Wallace Raymond Selby’s 2 Bn 9 Gurkha Rifles, were first off and entraining to Kluang, where they would stay a couple of days, before moving east to Mersing. Already there were the other two battalions of the reformed and renamed, 28th Indian Brigade, Lt Col Sheppard Fearon’s 3 Bn 16 Punjab Regt, and Lt Co GR Kidd’s 2 Bn 14 Punjab Regt, awaiting them to join. As for the rest of the old Gurkha brigade, the 2 Bn 2 Gurkha Rifles were joining the 41st Indian Brigade in Kelantan, while the 2 Bn 1 Gurkha Rifles were joining the 22nd Indian Brigade at Kuantan. Both would have to stay in Port Swettenham for a few days, awaiting train transport.

Another major unit arriving was the 5th King Edward VII’s Own Lancers, better known in Indian circles as Probyn’s Horse. They were undergoing mechanisation, and would be married up with Marmon Herrington armoured cars. They had already been given some training with light trucks, but would need at least three months before they could be considered competent with the new vehicles. They were being held on board ship, until tomorrow, when they would disembark, and entrain for Camp Mantin.

Also disembarking was the 155th and 160th Field Artillery Regiments, which until a month ago had been just the 155th. Battery A had been given over to the newly formed 160th, and a second battery formed from a cadre out of the other three, along with new recruits. All four batteries were equipped with eight of the 4.5-inch howitzer, and the plan was to raise a third battery for both regiments, equipped with 3-inch mortars, until such time as they could be re-equipped with 25 pounders next year. However, shortages of men and equipment meant that this part of the plan would have to wait awhile. The 155th was deemed operational, but badly needed more training, while the 160th would only be deemed operational beginning of December, and again needed training. Both would join the III Indian Corps but remain at a Port Swettenham camp to continue their training for now.

And lastly there were the odds and sods, nearly a dozen officers taking up new appointments, another 20 mules and their handlers, a draft of almost 100 strong for the Indian Auxiliary pioneers to replace promotions and transfers, and a few more medical nurses and orderlies. And then there was the golden nugget, 30 Indian combat veterans, wounded in North or East Africa, having served in various battalions of the 4th and 5th Indian Divisions, who having recovered, would be joining battalions in Malaya, taking NCO and junior officer promotions. Among them was Havildar Gurpreet Dhillon, formerly a Naik of 4/11 Sikh Regt, now joining 5/11 Sikh, 22nd Indian Bde, Subedar Asif Khan, formerly a Havildar of 4/10 Baluch Regt now joining 2/10 Baluch, 8th Indian Bde, and Jemadar Abdur Choudhury, promoted from Subedar, to 3 Field Coy Bengal S&M IE, 15th Indian Bde.

 

[vetinari]

Oh Vetinari, sarcasm doesn't become you, and remember in this alternative universe, Australia may have misplaced it's hero, just before their time of need!

Australia dislikes tall poppies...

 

[pdf27]

Another major unit arriving was the 5th King Edward VII’s Own Lancers, better known in Indian circles as Probyn’s Horse. They were undergoing mechanisation, and would be married up with Marmon Herrington armoured cars. They had already been given some training with light trucks, but would need at least three months before they could be considered competent with the new vehicles. They were being held on board ship, until tomorrow, when they would disembark, and entrain for Camp Mantin.

The 155th was deemed operational, but badly needed more training, while the 160th would only be deemed operational beginning of December, and again needed training. Both would join the III Indian Corps but remain at a Port Swettenham camp to continue their training for now.

Things look like being very busy in the first week of December...

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Australia dislikes tall poppies...

Hi Vetinari, Tall Poppies, I had to look that one up!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Things look like being very busy in the first week of December...

Hi pdf27, on reflection, I wish I hadn't written about so many units being ready by December. Realistically, these units would have been given more time, say April 1942, but obviously when it all kicks off in December, their readiness would have been speedily advanced. I was too bloody focused on what we know, and not keeping with their historical expectations.

And speaking of historical, we have a few changes here. The 28th Gurkha Brigade did arrive on this date, a very green formation, her Gurkha battalions badly milked before sailing from India, which I will maintain in my timeline. Historically however, it wasn't broken up, and became the reserve unit for the III Indian Corps. The 155th Field Regt RA, is historical, but the 160th, didn't come to Malaya, staying in India. And lastly we have the 5th King Edward VII’s Own Lancers, (Probyn’s Horse) who most certainly didn't come to Malaya. Now, at this point Ii have to confess a little love affair with a few Indian Cavalry Regts, this one and Watson's Horse, who you'll read about later (oops, spoiler!) I wanted both the 9th and 11th Indian Divisions to have their own recon units, and so needed a second Indian Cavalry Regt, but went Full Monty and have used both, at the expense of the poor old 3rd Indian Cavalry Regts, who was the historical recon unit for the III Indian Corps, apologies to aficionados of said regiment.

 

[Unknown]

Even if the Japanese succeed in taking Malaya, it will take longer and result in more casualties--which they do not need in the long run. Also, a delayed fall of Malaya and Singapore will throw off their schedule for their offensives...

 

[Butchpfd]

Even if the Japanese succeed in taking Malaya, it will take longer and result in more casualties--which they do not need in the long run. Also, a delayed fall of Malaya and Singapore will throw off their schedule for their offensives...

Every extra merchant ship the Japanese lose, will be one more chip off the Japanese timetable and economy, Every tanker is worth 5 chips.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Having only recently come across this excellent Time Line, I find it’s basic premise both intriguing and fundamentally interesting. That by replacing two of the principal characters from OTL, with flawed but very competent men, and thus instituting an increasing number of small but meaningful changes in the situation in Malaya and Singapore. This however is happening in a TL, that essentially doesn’t change from the one that we know, with Britain suffering the same reversals that she did IOTL. All three of the principal replacements Caldecott, Park, and Lord Gort, are to an extent in disfavour, with parts of the establishment, and in the case of Gort the Prime Minister himself. All three are much better men than their distracters think them to be, and as has been shown ITTL, given the opportunity have managed to rise to the occasion. They have between them managed with the minimum of resources, begun to prepare the region for what we know will be the eventual Japanese invasion.

So what have these three, along with those that they have elevated to positions of responsibility, and the odd duck Percival achieved in the time they have been in office. Other than the numerous improvements to the material, military, infrastructure and administration, the most important aspect of their efforts. Is to introduce an energy into the system that was singularly lacking before their arrival. They have been able to move a sleepy colonial backwater, were sitting around and singing a few patriotic songs was considered to be a major contribution to the war effort. Into a vital cog in the British Far East defence strategy. While at the same time maintaining the basic institutional story, that the Japanese would be foolish to attack, and therefore there was little to no chance that such an attack would take place. And they have managed to do this in a way that is mostly seen by the Japanese as of little threat to their plans.

The increase in anti aircraft guns, isn’t a threat, the guns being used are at best second class, and have been removed from front line service in Europe. And the guns along with their newly minted gunners are not a threat to the Japanese military, as the recent farcical exercise showed. The fact that all troops bugger up at first, that’s what training is for, and that the 3 inch gun is good enough against the Japanese aircraft, seems to slip past the attention of the Japanese. And while those so called training squadrons, with their second line aircraft might not be effective against front line fighters. Against unescorted bombers, lead by very experienced fighter pilots, attacking Singapore they will prove deadly. Those green Australian and Indian formations that are training in Malaya and Singapore, are not being trained to fight a highly mechanised force in Europe, nor are they presently equipped to do so. But they are training to fight the Japanese in Malaya, or to take over the role of maintaining civil order, from the experienced units in country. The Japanese are presently allowing their own preconceptions to blind them about the reality of what they will face in their assault on Malaya.

IOTL, the Japanese were very lucky, not only were the British in Malaya not prepared for their invasion, they also didn’t take the threat seriously until it was far too late. ITTL not only are the British fully prepared for a Japanese invasion, they are also taking the threat seriously, while trying not to panic the local population. This time the Japanese will not be able infiltrate the British C3 in such a way as they were, and thus panic the establishment. The deployment of the various second line units to support the civil administration and defence, even though they do not have the extensive training required for front line service. Will ensure that unlike IOTL were there was a sufficient collapse in morale and the support available to the military, from the civilian community. The firm hand that the government will be able to maintain over the civilian population, will mean that the military will be able to maintain their focus on defeating the Japanese. It should be remembered that the Japanese were on a very tight and complicated timetable, and should it be as it will be, seriously disrupted, it will rapidly begin to fall apart. And once it begins to fall apart, the effect on the invasion of Burma will cause that too to collapse, along with Japanese efforts to capture their principal target the oilfields of Borneo and the Dei’s. It doesn’t matter which Alternative Time Line you choose, better preparation in Malaya, will always result in a failure of the Japanese offensive.

RR.