Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
The very vexed question of Operation Matador.


Operation Matador, was a very good military plan, and would have had it been enacted with suitable troops, have probably been successful. Forcing the Japanese army onto the back foot, and requiring them to take up a defensive posture, something that they were not prepared for. However politically it was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have been a propaganda win for the Japanese, who could have then portrayed themselves as the victims. And thus muddied the waters in regards to who was responsible for the outbreak of the war. The Americans on whom the British were relying for much of the support they required to prosecute the war, especially in the European theatre. Would have had a lot of their suspicions roused about what the British war aims were, and there were plenty who would think that this was another British attempt to expand the British Empire, with them picking up the bill. And everyones favourite big mouth American General, his imperial highness the MacArthur, would have been screaming that the British rather than providing him aid, were instead using American resources to further their aims and expand the Empire. It should be noted that if the British don’t conduct Operation Matador, but as I suspect they will still succeed in preventing the Japanese from capturing Malaya and Singapore. His Gloriousness will claim that it was he who provided them with the plan to defeat the Japanese, and had the American government ( FDR ) provided him with the resources he gave to the British, he would have defeated them himself. It’s a good job that the Governor is a very switched on man, and there is a fairly extensive American Press Corps in Singapore, with good communications to the United States. As he will have his own tail to tell, and they will have seen but not been able to report up until the outbreak of the war, the preparations that the British had made, and how little that MacArthur had been involved in them.

RR.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Having only recently come across this excellent Time Line, I find it’s basic premise both intriguing and fundamentally interesting.
RR.
Hi Ramp-Rat, Blimey I had to read your post twice before I realised you was talking about my TL.!
That by replacing two of the principal characters from OTL, with flawed but very competent men, and thus instituting an increasing number of small but meaningful changes in the situation in Malaya and Singapore. This however is happening in a TL, that essentially doesn’t change from the one that we know, with Britain suffering the same reversals that she did IOTL. All three of the principal replacements Caldecott, Park, and Lord Gort, are to an extent in disfavour, with parts of the establishment, and in the case of Gort the Prime Minister himself.
RR.
Yes, that's it basically!
It should be remembered that the Japanese were on a very tight and complicated timetable, and should it be as it will be, seriously disrupted, it will rapidly begin to fall apart. And once it begins to fall apart, the effect on the invasion of Burma will cause that too to collapse, along with Japanese efforts to capture their principal target the oilfields of Borneo and the Dei’s. It doesn’t matter which Alternative Time Line you choose, better preparation in Malaya, will always result in a failure of the Japanese offensive.
RR.
Upsetting the timetable, may only just delay the inevitable, the USA is still a long way off harnessing her strength, and Britain is stretched to the limit. While my changes may delay the Japanese in Malaya, I have done nothing to bring any change to other events in the Far East. Ultimately, even if I am able to stop the Japanese in Malaya, all will still be lost, unless ABDA can morph into an effective force that can stop the Japanese circling round through the Dutch East Indies, and isolating Singapore. But lets see if we can first stop the Japanese in Malaya first eh!
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
The very vexed question of Operation Matador.


Operation Matador, was a very good military plan, and would have had it been enacted with suitable troops, have probably been successful. Forcing the Japanese army onto the back foot, and requiring them to take up a defensive posture, something that they were not prepared for. However politically it was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have been a propaganda win for the Japanese, who could have then portrayed themselves as the victims. And thus muddied the waters in regards to who was responsible for the outbreak of the war. The Americans on whom the British were relying for much of the support they required to prosecute the war, especially in the European theatre. Would have had a lot of their suspicions roused about what the British war aims were, and there were plenty who would think that this was another British attempt to expand the British Empire, with them picking up the bill. And everyones favourite big mouth American General, his imperial highness the MacArthur, would have been screaming that the British rather than providing him aid, were instead using American resources to further their aims and expand the Empire. It should be noted that if the British don’t conduct Operation Matador, but as I suspect they will still succeed in preventing the Japanese from capturing Malaya and Singapore. His Gloriousness will claim that it was he who provided them with the plan to defeat the Japanese, and had the American government ( FDR ) provided him with the resources he gave to the British, he would have defeated them himself. It’s a good job that the Governor is a very switched on man, and there is a fairly extensive American Press Corps in Singapore, with good communications to the United States. As he will have his own tail to tell, and they will have seen but not been able to report up until the outbreak of the war, the preparations that the British had made, and how little that MacArthur had been involved in them.

RR.
Ramp-Rat, I've put you down as not wanting to take tea (of Coffee, for the Americans among us) with MacArthur, when he next visits, you've joined quite a long list, indeed it might be better to ask, who does want to take tea with MacArthur!, hands up anyone?
 
MWI 41090316 An Addition To The Fleet

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Wednesday 03 September;

Vice Admiral Sir Geoffrey Layton walked down the gangway onto the quayside in the Singapore Naval Dockyard. He turned back, and looked at the ship, as his companions followed him off. HMS Kung Wo, requisitioned back in early June, built in Hong Kong in 1921 as a 4,500-ton Yangtse river passenger/cargo steamer. She had just commissioned, and he’d been aboard to celebrate with her captain, Commander Edward Thomson RNR, newly arrived Rear Admiral Ernest John Spooner, and a number of officers from ships at anchor in the Straits and dockyard departments. Spooner’s wife, the noted soprano Megan Foster, had christened her, the first official engagement since arriving, Spooner’s predecessor, Rear Admiral Thomas Drew, already on a ship heading back to the UK.

With her shallow draught and twin screws, Kung Wo was a good manoeuvrable river steamer, and she had been adapted to be used for laying coastal minefields. With some significant changes to the structure, she now carried 240 mines. She had an old 4-inch gun forward, an elevation of 30 degrees, making her almost useless for anti-aircraft fire, a 12-pounder aft, which could be used for AA, and a single Lewis machine gun on each wing of the bridge. Nevertheless, she would make a useful addition to the growing number of ships manned by the MRNVR.

The crew was made up of some of the existing officers and men taking on a Naval rank, but the majority were locally recruited or transferred. Lt Cdr Horace Vickers, CO of the Malayan RNVR, had spent a lot of time discussing crewing requirements with Thomson. Vickers was training new Malayan recruits at HMS Pelandok, the shore-based training centre and barracks for the MRNVR, based in the dockyard, with the drill and training ship HMS Laburnum, a disarmed ex WWI Acacia class sloop, engine removed, berthed at the Telok Ayer basin, in Singapore city.

The training was done by some seconded RN petty officers, who took intakes of 30 Malays at a time, training them as telegraphists, seamen, signalmen, gun crews, stokers, and a variety of other tasks. On completing their training, they were sent to either, the Perak Flotilla, comprised of six slightly smaller local built HDML’s, or an ever-increasing number of requisitioned ships serving as auxiliary minesweepers, patrol or ASW vessels. And as experience was gained, so promotions and transfers occurred.

Yes, Layton reflected, she was a nice little addition, should war with Japan come, she would be very useful laying coastal minefields, closing avenues of attack that couldn’t be patrolled with the few ships he had. But God forbid what would happen if she ever met the enemy.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
@Fatboy Coxy

Sir I thank you for your kind words in regards to my post, they are much appreciated. On the question of if enough has been done to date to prevent the Japanese from capturing both Malaya and Singapore, it is my opinion that the measures taken up until now, are more than adequate to disrupt the Japanese plans, and thus drag them into a conflict that they not prepared for. I do however dispute your claim that even if the British hold onto Malaya and Singapore, it will eventually fall as the Japanese do and end run through Sumatra and Java. I am of the opinion that providing the British manage to hold onto Malaya and Singapore, the Dutch with British help will be able to deny both Sumatra and Java to the Japanese. While as has been indicated, Borneo both British and Dutch is very much a lost cause for now. As others have pointed out, the Japanese were operating very much on a shoestring, with units committed to multiple objectives, and failure in one objective will have disproportionate effects on other operations. And this will begin to cause the Japanese plans to slowly at first, then increasingly unravel. One point that many people seem to miss in regards to our dear flawed leader Winston, among his numerous faults, was the fact that he wasn’t able to deal with those who failed to stand up to him. If you wanted to get along with him you had to be prepared to stand your ground, and have the facts to back your position. If you could, then chances were that he would back down, and defer to your position. As for MacArthur, I wouldn’t drink tea, coffee or whiskey with him, I personally regard him as being among the top five useless American signor officers, and very much responsible of all of the many failures that occurred during his command in both WWII and Korea.

RR.
 
Has anyone found any decent YouTube videos on twh different types of naval mines used during WW2 and how they were deployed? I read "mines" and have a very general understanding of how they work, but acknowledge that's a real blank spot in my knowledge.

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Has anyone found any decent YouTube videos on twh different types of naval mines used during WW2 and how they were deployed? I read "mines" and have a very general understanding of how they work, but acknowledge that's a real blank spot in my knowledge.

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻

From memory navel mines fall into three categories, controlled, contact and influence. Controlled mines are fixed in position ether on the sea bed or slightly above it, with a control cable running from the mine to an observation point ashore. When a hostile ship is seen to be close or above the mine, the shore station sends a signal via the cable and the mine detonates. This has an advantage that mines can be located in a shipping channel, which can remain open to vessels sailing through, but closed off by the mines in the event of an hostile trying to transit the channel. Contact mines are the classic round ball with spikes sticking out of the top half. These Horns as they are referred to, contain a system that if they come in contact with a ship, it will cause the main charge of the mine to explode. Influence mines, which are normally laid on the sea bed rely on an external influence from a passing ship to cause them to detonate. The three major influences used during WWII were magnetic, acoustic and pressure, that is the magnetic field caused by the ship being mostly made of iron, the sound of its engines, and the pressure difference caused by its passage over the mine. These were the most complex and costly mines to produce, and the most difficult to render safe, as it was possible to employ a counter in the system that required multiple sweeps to render them safe. And you could incorporate multiple systems in one mine meaning that the act of sweeping for a magnetic mine, activated it as a pressure mine. In addition these influence mines could be air dropped into areas that it was impossible to deploy ship or submarine delivered mines. A classic example being the delivery by air or mines to the Danube river system, which was one of the most efficient and destructive use of mines during the war.

RR.
 
Ramp-Rat, I've put you down as not wanting to take tea (of Coffee, for the Americans among us) with MacArthur, when he next visits, you've joined quite a long list, indeed it might be better to ask, who does want to take tea with MacArthur!, hands up anyone?
sadly it would be worth the loss of a PBY or B-17 crew, if something befell MacArthur while flying from Manila to Singapore.
 
Easiest and less bloody is to have FDR have him come back to the US at the start of November for consultations, really play it up with needing to get his opinion on things. Plus make it so his wife and son, his son had not been to the US yet, stay for the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years before he can go back. Really get some people like McCormick in Chicago to extend an invitation to him. After he is here and stuck because of Dec. 7th, Make Hart and Wainwright in charge of their respective people to keep some sanity going.
 

Driftless

Donor
Tangent from the OP, not to be suggested as part of this excellent TL: send Mac to China, replacing Stilwell, who had a frequently difficult relationship with Chang Kai-shek anyway. But then, Mac would probably bombast for the road to Tokyo to be run through China.... :biggrin:

We return now to our regularly scheduled Timeline....
 
Bit of information re: USN and mines These were the only USN mines in the Philippines . MK XII Submarine launched mine. Unlike the Mark 11, the Mark 12 was designed to be launched from a standard 21" (53.3 cm) torpedo tube. Cylindrical with an aluminum case, this mine was developed in the 1920s from German S-type mines. Dimensions were 20.8D x 94.25L inches (52.8 x 239.4 cm). Weighed 1,445 lbs. (655 kg) with a 1,100 lbs. (499 kg) TNT charge or 1,595 lbs. (723 kg) with a 1,250 lbs. (567 kg) Torpex charge. Mod 1 was parachute mine, Mod 3 was a submarine type and Mod 4 was a replacement for Mod 1. Some of these mines were delivered to Manila just before the start of World War II. They were dropped into deep water to prevent capture.
 
Easiest and less bloody is to have FDR have him come back to the US at the start of November for consultations, really play it up with needing to get his opinion on things. Plus make it so his wife and son, his son had not been to the US yet, stay for the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years before he can go back. Really get some people like McCormick in Chicago to extend an invitation to him. After he is here and stuck because of Dec. 7th, Make Hart and Wainwright in charge of their respective people to keep some sanity going.
IIRC, USN separated Hart from Mac Arthur after the disasters at Clark Field that led to the destruction of Cavite Naval Station, on about 12 December Far East Time.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
Has anyone found any decent YouTube videos on twh different types of naval mines used during WW2 and how they were deployed? I read "mines" and have a very general understanding of how they work, but acknowledge that's a real blank spot in my knowledge.

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
WW2TV had a show last month (just come off a two week break so won't be too far back in the list) on the Bomber Command minelaying operations. Covers the tech as well as coverage etc.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
@Fatboy Coxy
Quick question: What ships are being sent with Force Z and are Cruisers and a Aircraft Carrier going to join?

Plus what Naval ships are station at this moment in Singapore.
Hi Logan2879, quick questions are not necessarily also quick answers :cool:

Force Z was first conceived around November I believe, and certainly not in September, so it would be premature to comment on what might or might not be, without giving out spoilers, so nice try but you'll have to wait for that one.

Currently based at Singapore is just a couple of Rainbow class submarines, with another two deployed in Hong Kong, a few S class destroyers, a number of Insect and Dragonfly gunboats and a flotilla of MTB's, rounded off by about 20 or so merchant vessels requisitioned, used for patrol and minesweeping. The small aircraft carrier, HMS Hermes, training with two Swordfish and one Buffalo FAA squadrons, is also here, and there is a constant coming and going of cruisers, mostly old C and D class, or AMC's, sailing along the Indian Ocean trade routes, hunting for the German merchant raiders. A few cruisers are also on the Australia station, and that's about it.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
@Fatboy Coxy
I am of the opinion that providing the British manage to hold onto Malaya and Singapore, the Dutch with British help will be able to deny both Sumatra and Java to the Japanese.
RR.
Hi Ramp Rat, Opinions are valued, alternative history is all based on a what if, that may well be founded on good historical fact, but ultimately rests on different decisions being taken. We can't really be wrong, but also we can't be right, because historically, it didn't happen, but we can have an opinion, and its good to hear the opinion of others, and their arguments that support that. Every step that I take away from the historical path, makes my timeline less plausible, so good debate on what could be considered possible, likely even, helps keep me closer to plausible.

The other thing is no one knows everything (although some think they do), and our knowledge base is derived in part from upbringing, education and personal interests. My knowledge of Australian and New Zealand affairs is somewhat limited, what I know about the Philippines is extremely limited, and the Dutch East Indies is very potted, the opinions of other is not only accepted, its wanted. Long term strategy interests me greatly, but I'm limited on commenting, for fear of giving away spoilers, I have a few big surprises in store, but don't want to show my hand.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Easiest and less bloody is to have FDR have him come back to the US at the start of November for consultations, really play it up with needing to get his opinion on things. Plus make it so his wife and son, his son had not been to the US yet, stay for the holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years before he can go back. Really get some people like McCormick in Chicago to extend an invitation to him. After he is here and stuck because of Dec. 7th, Make Hart and Wainwright in charge of their respective people to keep some sanity going.
Hi Jlckansas, no tea for you either!
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Tangent from the OP, not to be suggested as part of this excellent TL: send Mac to China, replacing Stilwell, who had a frequently difficult relationship with Chang Kai-shek anyway. But then, Mac would probably bombast for the road to Tokyo to be run through China.... :biggrin:

We return now to our regularly scheduled Timeline....
Driftless, you know you was already on the list, Douglas said one D at the table was enough!
 
Top