Japanese escorts were typically of poor quality. I would expect the British to do well here.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Late war boats likely all would have had something aboard.
Earlier war boats, especially ones in a lower priority area, probably a lot more hit or miss.
Big thing about torpedo boats also is that you really need to know when and where the enemy is coming from also. They'll need to be careful planning how and when to attack also. As long as the Japanese convoys remain outside territorial waters, and until the Japanese either declare war or shoot first, or at least openly violate Malayan territorial waters, they really can't have the MTBs out waiting.
This is why I see it best if they use subs for recon and to land the first blows, and then have the MTB units come in and try to pick off other targets.
They don't really need to be particularly powerful to do the job. I think your being influenced by the Japanese reputation for inadequate ASW vessels. It's not like they need destroyer escorts, or corvettes that would protect ocean convoys against submarines. I think all the Japanese had for escorts for this convoy were patrol boats, small boats called subchasers, and armed trawlers. Unless their being attacked by destroyers, they should be more than enough for MTB's, though the MTB's may get lucky.
An attack by a British submarine is another matter. Remember to be most effective a sub would have to attack before the landing, and probably have to do it at night on the surface. That's a whole different ball game than an MTB attack.
German escorts of convoys targeted by RN MTB squadrons were only seldom destroyers while the IJN did deploy a lot of its second-rate destroyers as escorts for the invasion fleets.
Which convoy?
The Kota Bharu convoy I mentioned a few weeks ago had several modern destroyers and a light cruiser, all comparable in size and firepower to a number of British and US warships of the time.
An MTB is good for short engagements, but unless they kill their engine and just sit somewhere, they really don't have a lot of time to loiter around waiting, especially several miles out in the open ocean with little or no cover. They're much more useful closer to shore, where depending on if they paint the boats to be low visibility, they can hug the coastline and hide.
A sub, of which this timeline has 4 operating out of Singapore, has much longer legs, much better loiter time, at this point all British subs have some sort of radio aboard to send out a sighting report, and if the boat dives, it can avoid detection better.
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A destroyer, even an old one, is overkill against MTBs. Remember we're talking 60-foot wooden boats here - a 37mm or equivalent AA gun will rip one up no trouble, and heavier weapons just make it harder to hit. An MTB detected by pretty much any armed ship is in trouble - classic MTB tactics are sneak into range undetected, launch torpedoes and use the speed to get the hell outta Dodge.
Compared to submarines, MTBs are much cheaper, can operate in shallow waters where submarines struggle and have the dash speed to catch moving targets from a much longer distance. The downside is they're pretty much limited to coastal operations at night (an MTB spotted in open waters in daylight is pretty much dead), they carry many fewer torpedoes and they're easier to detect and much easier to kill before they get into effective torpedo range.
Compared to submarines, MTBs are much cheaper, can operate in shallow waters where submarines struggle and have the dash speed to catch moving targets from a much longer distance. The downside is they're pretty much limited to coastal operations at night (an MTB spotted in open waters in daylight is pretty much dead), they carry many fewer torpedoes and they're easier to detect and much easier to kill before they get into effective torpedo range.
Sorry to ask the inevitable question but any idea what the difference in cost was between a U-class coastal submarine and something like a Thornycraft 73' MTB? Considering materials and weight are we talking 6x the price?
Just a mea culpa on my own ignorance.....
Thanks to FC for another great chapter in which I learned something new (one of many chapters like that). I never realized that they slowed down, much less had to extend a lattice frame for the torpedoes to them make their way into the water, prior to launch. Having never seen a torpedo boat actually fire its torpedoes I was under the mistaken impression that they spun up the propellers to full speed prior to launch and as the gas accumulated behind the torpedo it would launch forward of the speeding torpedo boat. So again to FC, thank you for the education. Cheers, Matthew. 🍻
Thanks to FC for another great chapter in which I learned something new (one of many chapters like that). I never realized that they slowed down, much less had to extend a lattice frame for the torpedoes to them make their way into the water, prior to launch. Having never seen a torpedo boat actually fire its torpedoes I was under the mistaken impression that they spun up the propellers to full speed prior to launch and as the gas accumulated behind the torpedo it would launch forward of the speeding torpedo boat. So again to FC, thank you for the education. Cheers, Matthew. 🍻
It depends how you launch them. Some MTBs had launch tubes and fired them like destroyers did, others used the roll method. U.S. PT boats started off using launch tubes but converted later to rolling them off the deck. The roll method saved a lot of weight, and avoided the flash of the discharge blast that could reveal the location of the firing boat. German S Boats had launch tubes, and I believe these British MTBs did to.
So I'm filing in my head accurately....
S-Boat + Large British MTB
- Used pressurized launch tubes
- Enabled higher speed launches but flash likely to give away position (surprise lost), especially if fighting at night where flash more noticeable
US PT
- Used roll method
- Required boats to slow prior to launch but saved weight and more importantly no flash helped conceal firing position from target
And what FC was describing was first generation British MTB's (model?) without pressurized launch tubes or roll method? So again, lighter installation, and more stealth at point of firing, but arguably more vulnerable as they had to slow dramatically to fire at relatively close range to target?
And just to keep in same post, what did Italian MTB's use?
Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
From what I've seen and read the roll method was used on U.S. PT boats starting in 1943. Before for that all MTBs used launch tubes. Here's a video of British MTBs from 1943 using launch tubes. I don't know if RN MTBs started using the roll method later in the war, but they started the war using launch tubes.
british mtb ww2 - Bing video
I would imagine those were issues. TBS Talk Between Ship radio came out in the USN by 1942, and enabled ships to do voice communication within a few miles of each other with little chance of enemy interception. I don't know if MTBs had low power voice radios before that to coordinate hunts with. I know that radios of that type were available at the time and were installed in tanks. Slightly off topic, but American tanks had a major advantage over their German counterparts by having much more powerful FM radios vs. weaker German AM sets.
IIRC, USN PT's used tube launched torpedoes, until early 1943 when the added weaponry (20 mm, 37mm, 40mm) auto cannon plus more .50cal HMGs made the need for weight reduction necessary. All USN PTs in the Pacific at this time were tube launched torpedoes.
And with the pace of change from the historical, increasing, I've a good 100 chapters or so to post yet, apologies to everyone waiting on the action to unfold.
The battles between British and German coastal forces along the northern France, Belgium, Holland coastline during WW2 was hard fought and bloody.
and
The boats of the 2nd MTB Flotilla are very much obsolescent as far as Fast Attack Craft go for this period, the Germans, with their S-Boats, or E-boats as us Brits like to call them, were so much further advanced, bigger ships, with diesel engines, much less likely to catch fire (see also tank warfare of this time), larger guns and very seaworthy. And that's without discussing the launching torpedoes, which as CB13 posted
Slowing down, and erecting the lattice framework to launch the torpedo will expose the boat to danger, her speed in combat being her only real defence. So they have to effect a surprise attack, otherwise it will get a bit hairy for them. As for guns on the boat, I believe they carried twin Lewis Guns, mounted fore and aft, and may have mounted a fifth machine gun, Lewis or Bren, within the bridge.
There's a nice little video here which gives some idea of their capabilities and frailties.
The battles off the west coast of Italy are little know today but were tough fights. The Germans were running supply convoys down the coast, and the Allies tried to intercept them. USN PT boats had radar, so they'd help lead RN MTBs & MGBs in night battles. The Germans would escort freighters with S-boats, and what they called Lighters, small coastal ships loaded out with all kinds of guns from 20 & 37mm AA guns, 75 & 88mm flak guns, and up to 105mm howitzers. Some of the PT boats gave up their torpedoes and loaded up with guns up to 75mm. Whatever kind of light artillery they could get ahold of and bolt on the deck of a PT, or MGB to match the firepower of the German Lighters. Many of the coastal freighters drew too little water to be hit with torpedoes, so it became more, and more of a gun fight.
MWI 41081015 The Air Reinforcement Route
1941, Sunday 10 August;
The leading Blenheim pilot waved his wings, and then turned into what would become a holding circle above the airfield, the next aircraft began his descent for a landing, while the last three Blenheim’s followed the leader. On the ground, RAF and RCAF officers, pilots and ground crew all paused in their efforts to watch the aircraft come in. The pilot eased the plane down, and while not quite a perfect landing it was better than many of the pilots watching would be capable of.
As she taxied off the runway so another aircraft made her descent, the rest making another circuit around the airfield. Again, a good landing, and so it continued, until it was the turn of the leader, who’s landing was beyond the criticism of any fair-minded person. For most of the people watching, the show was over, and the Seletar airfield fell back into her normality, excepting the small reception party for the five air crews.
Tomorrow, maintenance crews would begin giving each aircraft a full overhaul, the long journey, the dusty climates, and the heat would have taken a toll, despite the nursing of the planes along the way. For their pilots, it would be several days of rest and relaxation, before boarding a BOAC flight back to Egypt, where no doubt more aircraft awaited to be ferried who knows where.
The aircraft use to fly to Egypt from the old route of UK, Gibraltar and Malta, but the entry of Italy into the war had effectively closed that route. Beginning in late 1940 the British had constructed a trans African route, which required aircraft, having been built in the UK, to be disassemble and packed in crates, shipped to West Africa, where they were reassembled, and flown across Nigeria, on through French Equatorial Africa, stopping at Fort Lamy, and then on into Sudan, including Khartoum, before heading north to Egypt. Last month, over 150 aircraft had completed this route, and as facilities improved, and staff became more proficient, this number was expected to rise.
From Egypt, another air route existed to Singapore, over five and half thousand miles, flying through Iraq, Persia, across India, over to Rangoon in Burma, and then down to Victoria Point, the most southerly point in Burma, on the western side of the Kra Isthmus, before making this last leg to Singapore. It worked well, although single engine aircraft needed far more intermediate stops, owing to their shorter range. Flown by ferry pilots, flying in small groups of up to six aircraft at a time, it was a cheaper, and far quicker way of moving aircraft to Singapore from the Middle East, despite the obvious risk of aircraft breakdowns, or worse, crashes.
The numbers flying into Singapore were but a trickle, but should things turn ugly, this was how the RAF proposed to reinforce the theatre, whole squadrons following the route down. Which all sounded fine, until thoughts were given to the ground crews left behind, most of who would still have to come by ship. And the precarious route along the Kra Isthmus supposed that neighbouring Thailand wouldn’t fall into the enemy’s hands, allowing the quick capture of Victoria Point, the furthest point south for Burma, or the small airfields along the Isthmus north of it which the single engined aircraft relied on, being unable to divert onto longer flights routes, like the twin engined aircraft could. Meanwhile the shipping of crated aircraft into Singapore continued, their totals, especially Hurricanes, increasing significantly.
The leading Blenheim pilot waved his wings, and then turned into what would become a holding circle above the airfield, the next aircraft began his descent for a landing, while the last three Blenheim’s followed the leader. On the ground, RAF and RCAF officers, pilots and ground crew all paused in their efforts to watch the aircraft come in. The pilot eased the plane down, and while not quite a perfect landing it was better than many of the pilots watching would be capable of.
As she taxied off the runway so another aircraft made her descent, the rest making another circuit around the airfield. Again, a good landing, and so it continued, until it was the turn of the leader, who’s landing was beyond the criticism of any fair-minded person. For most of the people watching, the show was over, and the Seletar airfield fell back into her normality, excepting the small reception party for the five air crews.
Tomorrow, maintenance crews would begin giving each aircraft a full overhaul, the long journey, the dusty climates, and the heat would have taken a toll, despite the nursing of the planes along the way. For their pilots, it would be several days of rest and relaxation, before boarding a BOAC flight back to Egypt, where no doubt more aircraft awaited to be ferried who knows where.
The aircraft use to fly to Egypt from the old route of UK, Gibraltar and Malta, but the entry of Italy into the war had effectively closed that route. Beginning in late 1940 the British had constructed a trans African route, which required aircraft, having been built in the UK, to be disassemble and packed in crates, shipped to West Africa, where they were reassembled, and flown across Nigeria, on through French Equatorial Africa, stopping at Fort Lamy, and then on into Sudan, including Khartoum, before heading north to Egypt. Last month, over 150 aircraft had completed this route, and as facilities improved, and staff became more proficient, this number was expected to rise.
From Egypt, another air route existed to Singapore, over five and half thousand miles, flying through Iraq, Persia, across India, over to Rangoon in Burma, and then down to Victoria Point, the most southerly point in Burma, on the western side of the Kra Isthmus, before making this last leg to Singapore. It worked well, although single engine aircraft needed far more intermediate stops, owing to their shorter range. Flown by ferry pilots, flying in small groups of up to six aircraft at a time, it was a cheaper, and far quicker way of moving aircraft to Singapore from the Middle East, despite the obvious risk of aircraft breakdowns, or worse, crashes.
The numbers flying into Singapore were but a trickle, but should things turn ugly, this was how the RAF proposed to reinforce the theatre, whole squadrons following the route down. Which all sounded fine, until thoughts were given to the ground crews left behind, most of who would still have to come by ship. And the precarious route along the Kra Isthmus supposed that neighbouring Thailand wouldn’t fall into the enemy’s hands, allowing the quick capture of Victoria Point, the furthest point south for Burma, or the small airfields along the Isthmus north of it which the single engined aircraft relied on, being unable to divert onto longer flights routes, like the twin engined aircraft could. Meanwhile the shipping of crated aircraft into Singapore continued, their totals, especially Hurricanes, increasing significantly.