Will Zhang Zuolin still die in 1928? If he does a power struggle could erupt between Puyi and his warlord generals. This could either result in a return to the republic, a return to the status quo, a new Han Chinese dynasty, or Puyi winning out. It'll be interesting to see if Zhang dies, and if he does, what the result will be.

Zhang Zuolin was assassinated IOTL under very specific TL circumstances, so while he might die in 1928 it won't happen under anything like OTL circumstances.

As for the power struggle it would not be between Puyi and the generals - Puyi quite simply does not have the requisite power for that. I also don't think you will have another attempt at a Republic - if a succession conflict goes off you probably have a faction holding forth Puyi as figure head and claiming to be a continuation of Zhang rule. Another might challenge the central faction, claiming they are "bad advisors to the Son of Heaven", and seek to replace them. Beyond that you probably have lesser warlords striking out on their own and one or more powerful warlords trying to make themselves Emperor.

The Republican phase will probably come to be seen as a bizarre aberration akin to that experienced under the Taiping Rebellion unless something drastic happens. The restoration of the Qing, while not necessarily securing the Qing dynasty itself has largely discredited republican rule.

What Princip and his associates knew is different from what we know today: they believed, ironically, that Franz Ferdinand was the leader of the Austrian war faction and that killing him was the only way to prevent a war.

But yeah, that's a complicated discussion with like nine separate sub-questions - and one that probably shouldn't be allowed to clutter up this thread.

I think we are broadly on the same page, at least I agree with all your statements, and you are right that it is a complicated discussion. Basically, agreed.

Jeez, I can get longwinded...
 

Bison

Banned
Without adjoining the Polish Ruthenians behind the Carpathians to the rest of the Ukraine the Ukranian movement will be significantly less radical, important and the line between Ukrainian and Russian will be more blurry and possible further West.
 
No in an earlier update Ukraine natiolinst got invoked in Galicia a bit and there was a mention of some other Ukraine state or something

A significant portion of Galicia's population was Ruthenian - a grouping closely related to Ukrainians/a population considered Ukrainian. I think that is what might have been confusing you.

Galicia sees a civil war between Polish and Ruthenian populations, with the Ruthenians wanting to be part of the Don White's Ukrainian realm and the Poles wanting to be part of Poland. Hope that makes sense.

Without adjoining the Polish Ruthenians behind the Carpathians to the rest of the Ukraine the Ukranian movement will be significantly less radical, important and the line between Ukrainian and Russian will be more blurry and possible further West.

The Ukrainian national identity is definitely less well-defined than a lot of others and given they are ruled by Russians that could prove an issue.

Why not the Mont Saint Michel ? I'm sure the abbaye can lend it to the pope

Mont Saint-Michel is far too isolated. It is a fun idea, but logistically the Papacy needs to be at a central cross-roads where they can manage church affairs on a global level. At the moment the Vatican are in negotiations with French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Brazilian and Colombian governments for a more permanent solution given that it looks like Rome won't be retaken any time soon.
 
Mont Saint-Michel is far too isolated. It is a fun idea, but logistically the Papacy needs to be at a central cross-roads where they can manage church affairs on a global level. At the moment the Vatican are in negotiations with French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Brazilian and Colombian governments for a more permanent solution given that it looks like Rome won't be retaken any time soon.

Turning the Palais des Papes (and the park) in avignon as a mini-vatican could be an idea but would need some compensation. But i guess it isn't that practical and acceptable for the french governement to lend a part of a city to the pope.
 
Let's see, my reactions so far. Haven't read the comments to the last update yet.

- I like what you did with Persia. It looks like there is some hope for the socialists, and it could be an inspiration for the idea of Islamic Socialism. The Caspian is going to be a busy lake. Sad for the Kurds, but they didn't look too friendly.
- I wonder about China. Will the remnants of the left KMT and communists try anything? Maybe trek towards their borders with Red Russia and its allies in central Asia? How is the Fengtian's hold on Xinjiang?
- The Austria Hungary peace deal feel a bit forced. There is no real good reason to weld the two parts of the empire back together. It makes it harder for their backers to control and it is unlikely it will hold anyway. Why not end it with the same demarcation lines but with Croatia nominally independent?
- There's only one place to put the pope, if you have a sense of historical irony... Avignon. Anything else is a missed opportunity.
 
Turning the Palais des Papes (and the park) in avignon as a mini-vatican could be an idea but would need some compensation. But i guess it isn't that practical and acceptable for the french governement to lend a part of a city to the pope.

I was originally thinking of doing exactly that - Hell, I was even going to make a ton of references to it as being a Second Babylonian Exile and shit. But then I gave it some proper thought and there is no way in hell that the Republican government in France would accept it. Now, with the growing power of Catholicism in France that might change with time but for now it would be almost impossible.

Let's see, my reactions so far. Haven't read the comments to the last update yet.

- I like what you did with Persia. It looks like there is some hope for the socialists, and it could be an inspiration for the idea of Islamic Socialism. The Caspian is going to be a busy lake. Sad for the Kurds, but they didn't look too friendly.
- I wonder about China. Will the remnants of the left KMT and communists try anything? Maybe trek towards their borders with Red Russia and its allies in central Asia? How is the Fengtian's hold on Xinjiang?
- The Austria Hungary peace deal feel a bit forced. There is no real good reason to weld the two parts of the empire back together. It makes it harder for their backers to control and it is unlikely it will hold anyway. Why not end it with the same demarcation lines but with Croatia nominally independent?
- There's only one place to put the pope, if you have a sense of historical irony... Avignon. Anything else is a missed opportunity.

I personally have a pretty high regard for the Kurds, at least in modern times, but when you take a look at some of the shit they pulled during this precise period it is downright bone-chilling. They were quite heavily involved in the Assyrian and Armenian genocides. Some bad juju.

The left wing of the KMT will with time be absorbed by the Communist movement in China and are going to be a pretty powerful presence, particularly along the coast. For now, Mao's shift in focus from the worker to the farmer has not happened and it is uncertain if it actually will happen ITTL. The Left-KMT and Communists are part of the Imperial underground, similar to the position of the Communists IOTL in the mid-1920s before Chiang Kai-Shek turned on them - i.e. relatively powerful in the cities of coastal China. The Xinjiang Clique is one of the lesser warlord cliques to declare their loyalty to the Fengtian Clique. They are largely left alone to rule the region under Yang Zengxin.

It is forced, that is sort of the point. The Germans won't accept an independent Croatia on the Adriatic coast aligned with the British and French, while the Anglo-French won't accept the complete subordination of the Croatians. An independent Croatia would be a dagger aimed at Germany's underbelly. With the two forced together in an unhappy marriage, neither power is able to completely dominate the region. Most importantly it leaves the region effectively neutral between the two. Basically all the reasons you mentioned for it being a bad deal are precisely the reasons for constructing the peace in the way they did.

I know! I Know! I really wish I could find anything approaching a plausible argument for having the papacy at Avignon, but it would send all the wrong signals in France. It would be viewed as an infringement on French sovereignty and most importantly it would indicate that the Vatican's stay in France would be long-term. The French governments of the last half century had just fought to remove Catholic Church influence on their state, so this would be extremely unpopular. Hell, just the temporary stay in France is going to be unpopular enough to create problems.
 
I know! I Know! I really wish I could find anything approaching a plausible argument for having the papacy at Avignon, but it would send all the wrong signals in France. It would be viewed as an infringement on French sovereignty and most importantly it would indicate that the Vatican's stay in France would be long-term. The French governments of the last half century had just fought to remove Catholic Church influence on their state, so this would be extremely unpopular. Hell, just the temporary stay in France is going to be unpopular enough to create problems.

The church is rich right ? And the French kinda need money ?

Also the pope being in france mean France hold a huge power over the pope. I'm sure we would like it :p
 
I personally have a pretty high regard for the Kurds, at least in modern times, but when you take a look at some of the shit they pulled during this precise period it is downright bone-chilling. They were quite heavily involved in the Assyrian and Armenian genocides. Some bad juju.

The modern Kurds are kinda schizophrenic. Rojava is impressive, but the Irak Kurds are run of the mill ethnic conservatives. Still, definitely a progress compared to that period.

The left wing of the KMT will with time be absorbed by the Communist movement in China and are going to be a pretty powerful presence, particularly along the coast. For now, Mao's shift in focus from the worker to the farmer has not happened and it is uncertain if it actually will happen ITTL. The Left-KMT and Communists are part of the Imperial underground, similar to the position of the Communists IOTL in the mid-1920s before Chiang Kai-Shek turned on them - i.e. relatively powerful in the cities of coastal China. The Xinjiang Clique is one of the lesser warlord cliques to declare their loyalty to the Fengtian Clique. They are largely left alone to rule the region under Yang Zengxin.

Yeah as long as they hold influence in the city, there is little reason to switch to the peasantry. May we see more peasant friendly leftists emerge and work side by side or against them like in Russia?

It is forced, that is sort of the point. The Germans won't accept an independent Croatia on the Adriatic coast aligned with the British and French, while the Anglo-French won't accept the complete subordination of the Croatians. An independent Croatia would be a dagger aimed at Germany's underbelly. With the two forced together in an unhappy marriage, neither power is able to completely dominate the region. Most importantly it leaves the region effectively neutral between the two. Basically all the reasons you mentioned for it being a bad deal are precisely the reasons for constructing the peace in the way they did.

Makes sense I guess. This way it remains neutral because trying to take any decision about any subject would see it implode back into war.

I know! I Know! I really wish I could find anything approaching a plausible argument for having the papacy at Avignon, but it would send all the wrong signals in France. It would be viewed as an infringement on French sovereignty and most importantly it would indicate that the Vatican's stay in France would be long-term. The French governments of the last half century had just fought to remove Catholic Church influence on their state, so this would be extremely unpopular. Hell, just the temporary stay in France is going to be unpopular enough to create problems.

And sense triumphs over historical irony. I agree with you though.
 
with the union of Austria, how many people and how many troops did Germany win?

This new kingdom of Croatia and Hungary will have moments of much political tension in the future.

poor Serbian it seems that his nation will not look like it again on the map of the world.
 
with the union of Austria, how many people and how many troops did Germany win?

This new kingdom of Croatia and Hungary will have moments of much political tension in the future.

poor Serbian it seems that his nation will not look like it again on the map of the world.

These are very loose calculations, but I would estimate between 7-9 million inhabitants added to Germany as a result of this.

The Habsburg realms will essentially function as two separate states in most regards, in effect a more divided version of the Austro-Hungarian relationship, so yeah they aren't going to be particularly pleased with each other.

It is doubtful, but you never know.
 
So the Italian mainland has gone red? And the French and Germans are just standing around and do nothing? Are they really letting another European country go communist? Germany even shares a border with Italy now. I find it hard to believe they would accept a communist state right next to them, especially after Italian communists tried to assassinate the Habsburgs. I would expect some politicians to even come up with some kind of ‘Domino Theory’ at this point, but applied to Europe instead of south-east Asia like in OTL.

Did this have no effect on the 1924 elections in France and Germany? I mean, Rome – which some might consider the heart of western civilization – has fallen, and the church is under siege by communists across Italy, and the other European powers do nothing? I would expect especially catholic countries like France, Spain and Portugal to be appalled by this course of events. Though i guess we will see the reaction to the fall of Italy in coming updates.
 
So the Italian mainland has gone red? And the French and Germans are just standing around and do nothing? Are they really letting another European country go communist? Germany even shares a border with Italy now. I find it hard to believe they would accept a communist state right next to them, especially after Italian communists tried to assassinate the Habsburgs. I would expect some politicians to even come up with some kind of ‘Domino Theory’ at this point, but applied to Europe instead of south-east Asia like in OTL.

Did this have no effect on the 1924 elections in France and Germany? I mean, Rome – which some might consider the heart of western civilization – has fallen, and the church is under siege by communists across Italy, and the other European powers do nothing? I would expect especially catholic countries like France, Spain and Portugal to be appalled by this course of events. Though i guess we will see the reaction to the fall of Italy in coming updates.

It hasn't fallen just yet, but Rome is under Communist rule and the Communists are facing scattered resistance as they press steadily southward. So far they remain in the Lazio.

The Germans just came out of a multi-year intervention in Russia, preceded by the Great War, and are far more concerned with the Austro-Hungarian shit show and absorbing these gains. As for the French, they are only just nearing a stable point in their rebuilding efforts and face considerable resistance from large segments of the Italian royalist leadership in any proposed intervention. Hell, they had a hard enough time getting the Liberals to accept their offers - keep in mind that the French are (to some degree, rightfully) blamed for providing aid to the Italian Communists. Hell, the Communists are securing quite significant supplies through smuggling across the Franco-Italian border. The French government is also balancing on a tightrope between weakened but powerful leftists on one hand and a surging right-wing on the other. An intervention would greatly strengthen the hand of the right, and prior to the election would probably have resulted in the failure of the current government.

There are proponents of the Domino Theory, primarily on the right in both nations, but the Right is not in power in either country. The British are involved to a larger degree, but are still limited mostly to subsidies, supplying weaponry and providing trainers - oh, and their intervention effectively removes any hope on the part of the Reds in securing Sardinia or Sicily.

It did have an effect on the elections, as is mentioned in the previous update, with a significant rise in Catholic power in France and a surging right-wing. The current government in France only barely scrapes by to secure the requisite votes. They are more worried about the threat from the right, than from the left. There are a lot of people talking of Thermidor in Paris. In Germany it has the impact of significantly strengthening Centre's distaste for Communists, and leftists in general, pushing them closer to the DKP and DNVP, but allowing them to maintain their alliance with the NLP.

Spain is too weak and divided at the moment of Rome's fall to do much, and is itself facing a major challenge which I will get into in the future, while Portugal is too far from Italy to be able to do much. There are plenty of condemnations and outrage, but no one has the resources or willingness to actually intervene in full. Everyone is exhausted and no one, not even the moderate right-wing, views war with anything other than absolute distaste. There is a general embargo of Communist Italy in place and other efforts like that, but for now the focus is on containment, not eradication.
 
I just found about this timeline and you have me subbed.

I have a couple of minor points though about the German actions. The Cameron and South West Africa parts. I my opinion Germany would rather have SWA the Cameron, there where more white settlers and massive amount of money sunk into the colony after the 1904 revolt.

Also wouldn't they have taken the Sudenten Germans when taking Austria as well.
 
I just found about this timeline and you have me subbed.

I have a couple of minor points though about the German actions. The Cameron and South West Africa parts. I my opinion Germany would rather have SWA the Cameron, there where more white settlers and massive amount of money sunk into the colony after the 1904 revolt.

Also wouldn't they have taken the Sudenten Germans when taking Austria as well.

I am happy to have you.

While the Germans might have prefered SWA to Cameroon, at the time they needed to win over the British for support on various other points in the treaty. Don't view it as SWA for Cameroon, view it as SWA for GEA+Cameroon (and their slice of the Congo). The French had already been bribed with a large section of Belgium, this was a straight up bribing of the British to ensure they would hold onto GEA - Cameroon is a bonus on top of that.

As I discussed in a previous post, the Sudenten Germans are part of the elite in Bohemia, and serve much the same role as the Baltic Germans in the UBD. Furthermore, keep in mind that this is a world in which national self-determination was a somewhat wacky idea from a coma-bound ex-president, not a core philosophy of the treaty negotiations. While many subordinated peoples viewed the Fourteen Points as a hopeful vision for the future, it never amounted to much in real life. The Germans are strong proponents of maintaining the proper borders of a region, which is why they support the creation of a Kingdom of Bohemia on the basis of the lands held within the Crown of Bohemia. I hope that makes sense. :)
 
How is tech progressing? With a longer war and different hotspots, technological advancements would change. I’m curious as to what branches of tech are stifled and which are advancing faster than OTL.
 
How is tech progressing? With a longer war and different hotspots, technological advancements would change. I’m curious as to what branches of tech are stifled and which are advancing faster than OTL.

I plan to get into it in Update twenty five, but if you have any suggestions I would be grateful.
 
Top