Terrible Map is Absolutely Effing Terrible, but it in general shows the borders that exist prior to the Societist Revolution…err "Second Wave" contact by Spain.
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The Sons of Inti Shall Not Perish
- Thread starter King of the Uzbeks
- Start date
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Any chance the Inca will one day expand northward and beat the Spaniards in conquering the natives living in the Colombian Cordillera? There's resources of emeralds, copper, coal, salt and gold that are worth seizing and exploiting to the benefit of the Sapa Inca. Their road network is unpaved and primitive compared to the Inca but once modified and expanded upon, they can be used as conduits for communications, troops and goods between the Cordillera and the rest of the Empire. Also the game of tejo can be introduced to the Quiteno and Inca nobility by the captured Muisca.
It would be interesting to see peaceful contact between the Inca and Europeans hostile to Spain, particularly if eventual news of the large but bankrupt neighbour receiving a string of defeats at the hands of 'barbarians' causes young prince Sebastião to have a different schedule which does not involve an early death.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
Do you have any sources for generals of the Inka state from Pachakutiq's time? I want to make a TL about him but need his generals.
Quotespam tonight, and an Update, In Brightest Day, In Darkest Night, coming Tuesday at the latest.
Tupac Inca Yupanqui, commanded a large segment of his army during the war against the Chimu.
Most of my sources deal with the conquest itself, but a quick google suggests his son,
Tupac Inca Yupanqui, commanded a large segment of his army during the war against the Chimu.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
Ah, I knew that. I was hoping for commanders during the Chanka invasion. But that's fine.
Try Google Books, I noticed some pop up when I looked him up. I don't know if you'll be able to read the whole thing, Google books is weird, but you might get some names.
I really like how you're developing this idea. Subscri.... err, I mean I'll be watching. I've already learned a few things (and what more a person can ask for?).
Learning is fun.
True and their first meeting with Christians did not go well.
Any chance the Inca will one day expand northward and beat the Spaniards in conquering the natives living in the Colombian Cordillera? There's resources of emeralds, copper, coal, salt and gold that are worth seizing and exploiting to the benefit of the Sapa Inca. Their road network is unpaved and primitive compared to the Inca but once modified and expanded upon, they can be used as conduits for communications, troops and goods between the Cordillera and the rest of the Empire. Also the game of tejo can be introduced to the Quiteno and Inca nobility by the captured Muisca.
The Spanish rule the coast, a fact that is unlikely to change barring some major changes in Europe. But a push north....
Europe will be different, but not in an earth shattering way, at least not yet. But butterflies are not completely dead.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
Hey, I love the Inka as much as the next guy (as evidenced by my new ASB Inka wank) but isn't that map a bit too generous when showing Tawantinsuyu control in the Amazon?
I understand that charcoal is necessary, but there's already a lot of trees in the areas in Northern Peru and Colombia the Inka already owned. Wouldn't their resources be better put towards constructing forts or something?
I understand that charcoal is necessary, but there's already a lot of trees in the areas in Northern Peru and Colombia the Inka already owned. Wouldn't their resources be better put towards constructing forts or something?
Chapter 1.8: In brightest day, in blackest night……
Chapter 8: In brightest day, in blackest night……
Many who went south had served in the conquest of Mexico and Central America
Pascual de Andagoya had been a crucial figure in the conquest of Central America by Spain, and had been among the first to hear of a great empire to the south. It had been with his ships that Pizzaro had begun his way south. But no word had been returned to him, not of failure or success. This concerned him, failure would bring humbled men, whereas a success like Central America would bring boasts. Andagoya began to fear that Pizzaro had found a new Mexico and installed himself as king, stifling the other conquistadors of gold and silver. He wanted to find out for himself, not daring to trust any other men to search for him. However there was other business to attend to, including a sint of Governor of Panama, so he waited. Carefully building up support to create a force capable of fighting to best of conquistadors. He was cautious, careful to avoid tipping his plans to anyone who might seize the day before him.
Pedro de Alvarado was not so careful. Alvarado was a notoriously brutal and greedy man, even to his fellow Spaniards, and was currently Governor of Guatemala. He had served with Cortes, though they had a falling out, and maintained contact with the Spanish court. Alvarado gained permission to conquer unclaimed lands for Spain along the Pacific Coast and had heard rumors of Peru's gold. He was less secretive about his goals then Andagoya openly recruiting men to reclaim "their share" of the treasure in Peru[1]. His plan was much bolder as well. While Andagoya planned to make his way down the coast slowly until he reached Tumbez before embarking on his planned campaign against Pizzaro and Almagro, Alvarado planned a more "traditional" approach. He intended to land on the north coast of whatever was south of Panama and march south until he conquered something, or at least looted enough to turn a profit. He waited until late 1536, making sure no word had returned of exactly where the treasure lay, before departing[2]. He took with him around 210 men, hopefully enough to give Pizzaro pause should they have a fight.
In contrast Andagoya began to build up a force designed to best a Conquistador force in a European style battle, or in a melee in the jungle. Even by late 1536, when Andagoya had finished his time in Panama he did not feel prepared, taking time to assemble 450 men and train them as best he could. However Andagoya was old and his health declining and the man could not command troops, he probably shouldn't have been on such an expedition in the first place. So he found Sebastián de Belalcázar to serve as his second in command. The two men disliked each other, as was common, and Belalcázar was not as young ad he used to be, but their mutual distrust kept them in check. Neither wanted to be left behind in what was becoming a race to be the next Cortes[3].
Alvarado claimed Peru for Spain under the name "New Grenada"
While Andagoya dithered Alvarado sailed from Panama, preparing a grand march south to participate in Pizzaro's looting. He landed on October 21 1536 in an undetermined location[4] in the north of the Empire. The local garrisons were certainly aware of the threat of the Spanish but they had not expected an attack this far north and none had ever fought a horse or gun before. The veterans of the northern wars prior to contact had gone south, the guns and horses were either closer to Cusco or fighting the Mapuche. The best they possessed was crossbows. They were overwhelmed quickly by the Alvarado's men. Soon Alvarado had discovered directions to the richest city in the area, Quito.
Alvarado began a rapid march south, tearing a streak through the countryside as his forces lived off of the land, smacking aside smaller garrisons and outriding those he deemed too large to fight. The general Ukumari, charged with defending the north with Quisquis near Cusco and Rumiñavi in the south, had been in
the administrative capital of the north, Tumebamba, at the time with some of his forces. He had been allocating resources for the hypothetical next attack by Spain and now marched north with all the speed he could gather while Rumiñavi was recalled north and Quisquis took stock of his options with Atahualpa. But Alvarado still seemed to be closing in on Quito and organization took time. However there was one thing that he did not know, the northern fringes. Despite having made relative peace on the northern frontier Atahualpa did not entirely trust the assorted groups to his north and a large border presence was maintained. This army was now more or less directly behind Alvarado. Despite lacking much in the way of command they had received some orders that had slipped by Alvarado and were prepared to fight to defend their homelands. Alvarado did himself no favors by engaging in quite a bit of looting and often rushing about the jungle on rumors of gold rather then following the direct roads towards Quito. Meanwhile an advance force led by Zope-Zopahua was barreling north at full speed to hold Quito.
Alvarado would meet his first significant opposition at the Battle of the Guayllabamba River. Elements of the border army attacked his camp near the river where he had been looting. Contrary to his expectations the opposition did not completely collapse upon meeting guns and horses and they managed to kill a few horses and wound a few men with their crossbows before being forced to pull back by the hail of gunfire. This was largely do to the fact that many did in fact flee when facing guns. While Guayllabamba was only a minor tactical victory for the Spanish it informed Alvarado of the army behind him, and he hastened faster towards Quito.
The Andes through the eyes of the Spanish
Quito, under the command of a man named, Chiaquitinta, was well aware of the coming threat and desperately tried to shore up its defenses, but they were hasty and lacked much understanding of European technology. They had few even of crossbows, and were ill trained in their use, frenzied rumors spread of the power of Spanish weapons, further weakening the position of Quito. Quito was also only recently conquered by Tawantinsuyu standards, while Atahualpa had greatly calmed relations and Quito itself was secure there were still natives that joined Alvarado on his journey south, providing valuable information and hastening his trek towards Quito. Still it is possible that a Battle like Chancay Road may have occurred, Quito is in the maintains. But Alvarado also brought forth a new Plague, missed as he vetted his fellow conquers quickly, influenza. It swept before him, spread by runners who had unluckily cought the disease, hitting Quito well before he entered the mountains. The new plague halted effective Tawantinsuyu counter moves as Alvarado entered the mountains, plans were disrupted and native allies helped avoid choke points as Alvarado marched north. The spread of Influenza hit the pursuing army as well, again improving Alvarado's position as the march on Quito continued.
It was a later arrival then it could have been but Alvarado had arrived on the outside of Quito by November 19, bearing his 210 men along with about 2 thousand native allies. The number of allies he managed to garner was severely depressed by his rather brutal methods of extracting wealth as well as the rapid advance through the countryside he took after discovering he was being pursued. One final blow was struck against the defenders of Quito as he approached the city, Chiaquitinta succumbed to influenza, leaving the city without a respected leader and allowing blunt force by Alvarado to win the day.
The Sack of Quito[5] was swift and brutal by Alvarado, who stormed the city in lightning fashion creating maximum panic with his horses and guns. However it is almost certain treachery either allowed him to get into the city for the battle or one of his allies knew a way in. Panic set in as Alvarado looted the city, seizing all the precious metals he could find and slaughtering those who opposed him. Quito's capture was the most devastating military blow to the empire in living memory. The weakened and leaderless force pursuing Alvarado would prove unable to retake the city as Alvarado set about "de-paganizing" the city. Meanwhile Zope-Zopahua climbed towards Quito with his men, bottling up the Spanish conquers in the area surrounding Quito. Several failed attempts were made to break South by the Spanish, but they largely failed due to the new forces being somewhat familiar with guns, however they were not enough to break the Spanish and crush them. By mid-January stalemate had arrived in the area, with Alvarado stripping every source of food he could in the area.
Soon thereafter Ukumari arrived with a hastily assembled force that actually possessed a few muskets as well as veterans of previous battles against the Spanish. February featured a series of battles that saw Alvarado forced back from his furthest South and into Quito. A proper siege had begun. With Atahualpa himself headed north with Rumiñavi's army as soon as he figured out how much material to leave with Quisquis it was looking to be a short one, even as influenza swept the empire over.
Then ships were sighted off of Tumbez.
_____
1: ITTL all of South America is called Peru by the Spaniards. At least for the time being.
2: IOTL he tried to conquer Quito, only to find it conquered already, here he has absolutely not idea where he is going.
3: The Original Cortes has just to Mexico returned from discovering OTL Baja California and is probably ranting about how in his day you didn't just expect a massive gold rich empire to fall into your lap.
4: Somewhere near Esmeraldas.
5: Or Occupation, or Conquest, or Rape. Take your pick.
Many who went south had served in the conquest of Mexico and Central America
Pascual de Andagoya had been a crucial figure in the conquest of Central America by Spain, and had been among the first to hear of a great empire to the south. It had been with his ships that Pizzaro had begun his way south. But no word had been returned to him, not of failure or success. This concerned him, failure would bring humbled men, whereas a success like Central America would bring boasts. Andagoya began to fear that Pizzaro had found a new Mexico and installed himself as king, stifling the other conquistadors of gold and silver. He wanted to find out for himself, not daring to trust any other men to search for him. However there was other business to attend to, including a sint of Governor of Panama, so he waited. Carefully building up support to create a force capable of fighting to best of conquistadors. He was cautious, careful to avoid tipping his plans to anyone who might seize the day before him.
Pedro de Alvarado was not so careful. Alvarado was a notoriously brutal and greedy man, even to his fellow Spaniards, and was currently Governor of Guatemala. He had served with Cortes, though they had a falling out, and maintained contact with the Spanish court. Alvarado gained permission to conquer unclaimed lands for Spain along the Pacific Coast and had heard rumors of Peru's gold. He was less secretive about his goals then Andagoya openly recruiting men to reclaim "their share" of the treasure in Peru[1]. His plan was much bolder as well. While Andagoya planned to make his way down the coast slowly until he reached Tumbez before embarking on his planned campaign against Pizzaro and Almagro, Alvarado planned a more "traditional" approach. He intended to land on the north coast of whatever was south of Panama and march south until he conquered something, or at least looted enough to turn a profit. He waited until late 1536, making sure no word had returned of exactly where the treasure lay, before departing[2]. He took with him around 210 men, hopefully enough to give Pizzaro pause should they have a fight.
In contrast Andagoya began to build up a force designed to best a Conquistador force in a European style battle, or in a melee in the jungle. Even by late 1536, when Andagoya had finished his time in Panama he did not feel prepared, taking time to assemble 450 men and train them as best he could. However Andagoya was old and his health declining and the man could not command troops, he probably shouldn't have been on such an expedition in the first place. So he found Sebastián de Belalcázar to serve as his second in command. The two men disliked each other, as was common, and Belalcázar was not as young ad he used to be, but their mutual distrust kept them in check. Neither wanted to be left behind in what was becoming a race to be the next Cortes[3].
Alvarado claimed Peru for Spain under the name "New Grenada"
While Andagoya dithered Alvarado sailed from Panama, preparing a grand march south to participate in Pizzaro's looting. He landed on October 21 1536 in an undetermined location[4] in the north of the Empire. The local garrisons were certainly aware of the threat of the Spanish but they had not expected an attack this far north and none had ever fought a horse or gun before. The veterans of the northern wars prior to contact had gone south, the guns and horses were either closer to Cusco or fighting the Mapuche. The best they possessed was crossbows. They were overwhelmed quickly by the Alvarado's men. Soon Alvarado had discovered directions to the richest city in the area, Quito.
Alvarado began a rapid march south, tearing a streak through the countryside as his forces lived off of the land, smacking aside smaller garrisons and outriding those he deemed too large to fight. The general Ukumari, charged with defending the north with Quisquis near Cusco and Rumiñavi in the south, had been in
the administrative capital of the north, Tumebamba, at the time with some of his forces. He had been allocating resources for the hypothetical next attack by Spain and now marched north with all the speed he could gather while Rumiñavi was recalled north and Quisquis took stock of his options with Atahualpa. But Alvarado still seemed to be closing in on Quito and organization took time. However there was one thing that he did not know, the northern fringes. Despite having made relative peace on the northern frontier Atahualpa did not entirely trust the assorted groups to his north and a large border presence was maintained. This army was now more or less directly behind Alvarado. Despite lacking much in the way of command they had received some orders that had slipped by Alvarado and were prepared to fight to defend their homelands. Alvarado did himself no favors by engaging in quite a bit of looting and often rushing about the jungle on rumors of gold rather then following the direct roads towards Quito. Meanwhile an advance force led by Zope-Zopahua was barreling north at full speed to hold Quito.
Alvarado would meet his first significant opposition at the Battle of the Guayllabamba River. Elements of the border army attacked his camp near the river where he had been looting. Contrary to his expectations the opposition did not completely collapse upon meeting guns and horses and they managed to kill a few horses and wound a few men with their crossbows before being forced to pull back by the hail of gunfire. This was largely do to the fact that many did in fact flee when facing guns. While Guayllabamba was only a minor tactical victory for the Spanish it informed Alvarado of the army behind him, and he hastened faster towards Quito.
The Andes through the eyes of the Spanish
Quito, under the command of a man named, Chiaquitinta, was well aware of the coming threat and desperately tried to shore up its defenses, but they were hasty and lacked much understanding of European technology. They had few even of crossbows, and were ill trained in their use, frenzied rumors spread of the power of Spanish weapons, further weakening the position of Quito. Quito was also only recently conquered by Tawantinsuyu standards, while Atahualpa had greatly calmed relations and Quito itself was secure there were still natives that joined Alvarado on his journey south, providing valuable information and hastening his trek towards Quito. Still it is possible that a Battle like Chancay Road may have occurred, Quito is in the maintains. But Alvarado also brought forth a new Plague, missed as he vetted his fellow conquers quickly, influenza. It swept before him, spread by runners who had unluckily cought the disease, hitting Quito well before he entered the mountains. The new plague halted effective Tawantinsuyu counter moves as Alvarado entered the mountains, plans were disrupted and native allies helped avoid choke points as Alvarado marched north. The spread of Influenza hit the pursuing army as well, again improving Alvarado's position as the march on Quito continued.
It was a later arrival then it could have been but Alvarado had arrived on the outside of Quito by November 19, bearing his 210 men along with about 2 thousand native allies. The number of allies he managed to garner was severely depressed by his rather brutal methods of extracting wealth as well as the rapid advance through the countryside he took after discovering he was being pursued. One final blow was struck against the defenders of Quito as he approached the city, Chiaquitinta succumbed to influenza, leaving the city without a respected leader and allowing blunt force by Alvarado to win the day.
The Sack of Quito[5] was swift and brutal by Alvarado, who stormed the city in lightning fashion creating maximum panic with his horses and guns. However it is almost certain treachery either allowed him to get into the city for the battle or one of his allies knew a way in. Panic set in as Alvarado looted the city, seizing all the precious metals he could find and slaughtering those who opposed him. Quito's capture was the most devastating military blow to the empire in living memory. The weakened and leaderless force pursuing Alvarado would prove unable to retake the city as Alvarado set about "de-paganizing" the city. Meanwhile Zope-Zopahua climbed towards Quito with his men, bottling up the Spanish conquers in the area surrounding Quito. Several failed attempts were made to break South by the Spanish, but they largely failed due to the new forces being somewhat familiar with guns, however they were not enough to break the Spanish and crush them. By mid-January stalemate had arrived in the area, with Alvarado stripping every source of food he could in the area.
Soon thereafter Ukumari arrived with a hastily assembled force that actually possessed a few muskets as well as veterans of previous battles against the Spanish. February featured a series of battles that saw Alvarado forced back from his furthest South and into Quito. A proper siege had begun. With Atahualpa himself headed north with Rumiñavi's army as soon as he figured out how much material to leave with Quisquis it was looking to be a short one, even as influenza swept the empire over.
Then ships were sighted off of Tumbez.
_____
1: ITTL all of South America is called Peru by the Spaniards. At least for the time being.
2: IOTL he tried to conquer Quito, only to find it conquered already, here he has absolutely not idea where he is going.
3: The Original Cortes has just to Mexico returned from discovering OTL Baja California and is probably ranting about how in his day you didn't just expect a massive gold rich empire to fall into your lap.
4: Somewhere near Esmeraldas.
5: Or Occupation, or Conquest, or Rape. Take your pick.
Excellent update. I hope the Incas prevail. The Andes are very good defensive terrain, so if the Incas can trick the Spaniards into attacking fortified positions when their supplies run out, they may be able to destroy their force. Then again, the Incas are not familiar with such tactics.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
They have good generals and an alright Sapa Inka.
They'll be fine.
I'm more worried about the influenza and smallpox together for the next decade.
They'll be fine.
I'm more worried about the influenza and smallpox together for the next decade.
Yup, that's about expected. And they likely won't stop until the Inca manage to establish proper coastal forts and make the beginnings of a formal navy, charged with patrolling the Empire's northern waters. Or alternatively, the King of Spain gets tired of dumping New World manpower(a precious commodity) at the Inca and orders a cease and desist, at which point all but the most foolish should stop.
Is Spain such a major power in the Americas that no European rival could decide to strike at the Spanish holdings while they are distracted by a tougher than average native target?
In 1536, Henry VIII is busy looking for new wives (and killing old ones), so no official reaction from England. However, Portugal does have a presence in Brazil already.
Did Pedro de Mendoza still found the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata in this timeline at around this point?
In 1536, Henry VIII is busy looking for new wives (and killing old ones), so no official reaction from England. However, Portugal does have a presence in Brazil already.
Did Pedro de Mendoza still found the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata in this timeline at around this point?
Might Portugal help the Inca in their fight? I think the answer is no, but maybe...?
I imagine that yes, they would, but there's no reason that the settlement would be any more successful. If anything, it'd face even more pressure thanks to the Mapuche having settled on the river and likely be wiped out near instantly. With less interest in South America than ever, I don't see the Spanish being interested. But on a side note, in a few decades there may be interest by multiple parties in conquering the Neo-Mapuche; being based around the Rio de La Plata is going to lead to an accumulation of wealth there, especially if they exist as a settled agricultural society that makes full use of the terrain.
