Didn't Argentina spend half a century of its independence in various civil wars? I'm not well-versed in the area's history, but I recall this much. Saying that Argentina couldn't keep Bolivia seems...misleading when accounting for the fact that it's Argentina that's downriver to Bolivia as well and not vice-versa. If anything an entity centered in Bolivia not being able to control Buenos Aires would be a better point of contention. And Lima didn't reassert its authority over Bolivia; the Peru-Bolivian Confederation was essentially a Bolivian-led union and Lima spent its time in the union incredibly unhappy with not being the seat of power. Also: RIP Peru-Bolivia :(
Yes, but it lost control over the Altiplano during the Wars of Independence, not during the civil wars, precisely because it was easier for the Royalists to defend it from Lima than to attack it from Buenos Aires. There's very little incentive for a Bolivia-based entity to try and control the River Plate, because it's very, very far and wasn't even especially prosperous until smuggling became profitable -- the major cities were in the interior, even under Spanish rule, such as Santiago del Estero, Tucumán, Córdoba and Asunción.

As for subjugating the northern rivers, I don't see it as something impossible for the Inca to pull off at all. Right now they'd have a military edge over the natives that's likely only going to grow in the very near future, and the introduction of the horse is unlikely to greatly alter this for at least a few generations. I'm not trying to claim they'd be easy conquests, but I do believe the Inca would see it as the softest target out of all available options outside of, say, maritime adventures in the South Pacific and subjugating Easter Island or something. I could see the Inca being quite fascinated with China, much like the Europeans were.
Of course, but in the time period that the Inca have the greatest advantage over its neighbors will also be the time period where they're most at risk of Spanish incursions. Certainly they'll be able to make considerable inroads into its neighbors, but again, it's unlikely they'll manage to subjugate the Chaco and Pampa plains, just because they're very different to the sort of terrain they're familiar with.

As for the impact of horses, wild horses will spread quickly thanks to the incredibly favorable conditions (the same happened IOTL with cows too). Keep in mind, the spread of horses in the Pampas was even faster than the Great Plains (a herd of just twelve populated the plains in less than a century IOTL, and horses will arrive much sooner and in greater numbers ITTL). Basically, it won't be a soft target for long.
 
In the last decades of the colonial era Spain transferred Alto Peru (Bolivia) from the Viceroyalty of Peru to the Viceroyalty of La Plata. Then when the independence wars begun the Peruvian viceroy Abascal invaded and took back Chile, Quito and in the battle of Huaqui in Alto Peru defeated the Argentinian revolutionaries.
 
Chapter 1.7: Make the Tawantinsuyu EVEN GREATER!
Chapter 7: Make the Tawantinsuyu EVEN GREATER!

Mapuches_tolderia_de_indios.jpg

A Mapuche Villiage

The Iron was discovered in the far south of the Tawantinsuyu Empire, an area that had long been on the fringes of the world for the empire. The most recent Sapa Inkas had campaigned to the north, not into the desert, and the area had remained a backwater. The local leaders had been friendly to Huallpa before the rebellion, a fact which Atahualpa considered necessitating his sending a large army southward to take control of the newly valuable mines. This proved conveniently useful in soothing various tensions in the empire. It got the army away from Cusco and soothed tensions there after the Machu Picchu Rebellion. It gave the army something to do, which appealed to the Quitians. And most importantly it would bring in much needed Iron to bolster the Tawantinsuyu military before more Spaniards showed up. So a firm imposition of imperial rule into the south was in everyone's interest. The Atahualpa began to consider a bolder plan. Perhaps there was more Iron to the south (there wasn't) he argued, the captured Spanish had told tales of the where the Great Western Sea of the Spanish met the Great Western Sea that the Tawantinsuyu, could that be found? Atahualpa sold his southern campaign well, as a way to return to what was right for the empire. Not fighting itself, not holding out against invaders but conquering. And it would be against an old enemy, the Mapuche.

The Mapuche were the first group to effectively stop the Tawantinsuyu advance southward into the desert. At the Battle of the Maule River sometime between 1470 and 1490 the Tawantinsuyu had been stopped and the border set. Unlike the northern campaigns or thrusts into the rainforest it was not a slow grind to a halt in conquest but a sharp defeat that had imposed a definite southern border on the Empire.

The flame of conquest still burned bright for the empire and the Mapuche seemed ripe for revenge against them. They had defied the empire once and Atahualpa was determined to not let it happen again. The Tawantinsuyu had new tools and weapons beyond what dreams they had when the lost at Maule, this time they could succeed. The Inka had turned a mission to secure Iron for Steel into an elaborate show of strength for the empire, or so he hoped.

Atahualpa staked much into this southern expedition, arguably more then what was needed. He sent many of his limited guns south along with quite a few horses and Spaniards, including Hernando de Soto, who was rapidly deciding that Atahualpa would be better to support fully rather then plotting elaborate coups, at least until more Spanish arrived. However the campaign was unarguably the hight of the brief era of Tawantinsuyu crossbow use, with all of the best shots in the empire heading south.

Heading this army was Rumiñavi, who Atahualpa had decided needed a break from stewing in the north waiting for more Spaniards to show up. Normally the Sapa Inka would lead a conquest, but Atahualpa felt his presence was needed in the capital to keep the peace along with Quisquis. Along with Rumiñavi was sent Manco Capac, who doubtlessly felt snubbed about not being appointed head of the army despite his royal blood and heroics during the Machu Picchu rebellion. Unbeknownst to him Rumiñavi was under orders to ensure that Manco commanded no significant troops during the war, lest he become even more of a hero.

IncanArmy1.jpg

The Army Heads South

The first target were the Picunche, the northernmost of the Mapuche peoples. A loose grouping of clans occupied the area directly south of the border. They were copper workers with a scattering of bronze tools. Their defenses were largely earthworks surrounding their villages or strategically placed to slow invaders. They were well built to repel probing raids, but not so sturdy against a full assault. In (southern hemisphere) Spring of 1535 Rumiñavi began his attacks south of the border. The Picunche were not fools and were quick to put aside any petty squabbles that might have been occurring. But Rumiñavi acted quickly and began a strategy of isolating individual forces and scattering them with his vastly superior forces. The flat lands were perfect for him to use his limited horses to maximum effect. He could focus his cannon on earthworks, assured that his crossbows could take enemy fighters. Disease would be the greatest killer against the Tawantinsuyu on this campaign. Though even that would have its silver lining, the diseases would wreck the Mapuche as well. The subjection of the Picunche was a fast one as they were wholly unprepared for such a rapid assault. By December 1536 the last of the Picunche tribes was defeated. The defeated groups were forced to work in fields overseen by newcomers from the north. Those that attempted to resist were either killed or forced off their lands and pushed south or east. Those who went south were unlucky.

North of what would at some points in the multiverse be called Reloncaví Sound lived the Huilliche, the southernmost Mapuche groups. They had a similar structure of farming towns to the Picunche and similar earthen and copper defenses. They had one major advantage over their northern cousins, a toqui. A toqui, a term for ax-bearer, was a leader whom the Mapuche of an area unite behind and fight under. The toqui the Huilliche fought under was named Malloquete1. With the forces of the whole area behind him he had the numbers to theoretically face Rumiñavi's force. But he held back do to the superior weaponry of the Tawantinsuyu, instead engaging in raids aimed at neutralizing these advantages. Malloquete managed to capture some horses to be used by his men, a dozen crossbows were stolen and a canon neutralized when its highly specialized crew was killed in their sleep. But Rumiñavi was nothing if not quick to learn and soon he's compacted his army making it much harder to raid. And he pushed ever southward. Malloquete didn't have complete authority over his followers however, they agreed to make him toqui, and many of then don't like their homes being destroyed and reorganized into communal farms and all of their crops being seized. To them the raiding assaults were not enough to stop the Tawantinsuyu and they made their voices heard. It is unknown how much internal pressure forced Malloqute to give open battle and how much it was that he was nearly out of food.

In any event the battle took place near enough to the shores Reloncaví Sound for it to take that name. As Rumiñavi meandered towards the shore Malloqute used his tiny calvary force as a distraction to distract from his main assault on the Tawantinsuyu flank. The mainly Quitian Army was not used to open warfare and so proved slow to react. But they did not break even and everything their opponents had was thrown at them. Their crossbows began to fire, their guns roared as the stayed together in a square. When the survivors came nearer the square broke into individual battles, where the better training of the Tawantinsuyu won the day. By now it was the winter of 1537 and Rumiñavi used that time to set up proper administration in the newly conquered lands, building storehouses, recruiting runners and planning roads. Those that resisted were forcibly removed westward, but the area remained relatively uncivilized by Tawantinsuyu standards. Here is where Manco Capac came into the fore, organizing while Rumiñavi conquered. He began the long process of assimilating the conquered people into the Empire raising up nobles from more cooperative families, in doing so he created a new class that was nominally loyal to the Sapa Inka and defiantly loyal to him. He also collected samples of guano, which the locals used as a fertilizer, to see how useful it would be in the mountains. Those who were forced out fled to the Chiloé Archipelago, where the Tawantinsuyu didn't really bother to follow, or east.

970029.jpg

Malloqute himself would be killed in a skirmish between families in the Chiloé

Rumiñavi had planned to finish his conquests in 1538 with a thrust eastward to conquer the final Mapuche group, the Moluche, however he was recalled north, with much of his army. The Spanish had come once again.

il_fullxfull.234516857.jpg

Pictured: Strange Bird

But let us put that aside and consider the fate of the Huilliche and Picunche who had fled or been forced eastwards. They would initially try to settle with the Moluche, but despite their similar cultures they were a different people and conflicts arose. Initially the immigrants had an advantage due to the small bits of technology they had pilfered and social chaos due to plagues. But the Moluche had the numbers and soon adapted. Some migrants assimilated but some were forced even further eastward. And so they fled into the desert, with a few horses, a few crossbows, and a tiny amount of iron tools. Many died in the grandiosely titled "Mapuche Exodus" but those that survived found a new land. It was a strange land with strange birds that were taller then any they had ever seen, but it was fertile and with a river larger then they had ever seen. Their interactions with the locals would be mixed, some would assimilate and some would conquer all as disease burned its path. But it was a new home for those who had crossed the desert and survived.

_____
1: He would earn his fame IOTL fighting the Spanish in the early 1640's. Here his career is moved up a bit.
 
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


I WAS JUST IN PERU FOR THREE WEEKS AND I'M SO EXCITED NOW THAT I'VE SEEN SO MANY INKA SITES UP CLOSE.


FUCKING CONQUER SOUTH AMERICA, PLEASE.

"Do you see that Simba, everything the light touches is ours."

"What about that shadowy place?"

"That is the Coast Simba, the light will touch there soon enough."

If Quito isn't the capital of the great and glorious Inca Empire, I'll be very dissapointed.

Quito is the second city no doubt.

I see a glorious future for the Inca on the Rio de La Plata in the near future. Or rather, the sooner Quechua farmers get established there, the better the Inca will be able to control the area. That's settler colony terrain; few if any agricultural societies, low population density, highly fertile and temperate.

Mmm Agriculture has arrived now ahead of them....

I'M SORRY, WHAT? You want them to go from the NAVEL OF THE UNIVERSE to some backwater town in the jungle?

Looks like Tupaq Yupanki forgot to finish indoctrinating you guys. You should know how superior the central highlands are.

If Quito IS the capital of Tawantinsuyu then I will be ready to fuckin assimilate the northerners and start a second goddam civil war.

Delphi as the Capital? Hurm.

That's like saying "If Harbin isn't the capital of China, I'll be disappointed."

Ah shit, I've got to consider how the butterflies will efect China

Very, very far from its center of power and very, very hard to link to the Altiplano. Inca influence will certainly spread throughout the northwest of Argentina (Jujuy, Salta and Tucumán at least), and maybe down the Andes, but probably won't exert any direct control over the River Plate basin.

Right now the top issues for our heros are

1) The Spanish are back
2) Gotta Get that Iron
3) Cause the Spanish are Back

For the short term I see more expansion along the Andes mountain chain. More mineral resources to make iron, better defensibility against Spanish incursions and a more familiar terrain for the Inca. The River Plate Basin? They can reach it but unlikely to do so before the Spanish or Portuguese.

The Mountains were always the home for the Inca. They'd haul up dirt rather then farm down low sometimes.

Harbin should've been the capital of China. It's not my fault that Mao decided to ignore all my letters.

Having Quito as a capital isn't too far fetchet. It's a great city and Atahualpa currently has his base of power there. Perhaps he can't change it oficially (as in, moving the imperial court and all that) but using it as an administrative and militar capital makes sense. There he wouldn't be threatened by the nobles of Cusco and would allow quicker response once the Spaniards start attacking again.

However Cusco won't take not being the center of power.......

I can totally see Quito as a "Second Capital" as Cusco like La Paz and Sucre to OTL Bolivia. And I say this as a Peruvian!

>Sucre
>Capital
Pick 1

giphy.gif



Do you happen to live on the coast?

I'm sure you'll love the lack of LIma :p

....the Rio de La Plata is downriver from their power base in the Andes, and it's faster to reach Buenos Aires from most of Bolivia than it is to get to say, Lima. I completely disagree; it's the natural expansion of power for the Inca Empire. The jungles are anathema, the Mapuche are annoying and not particularly wealthy, and the Spanish are established to the north. Not to mention, the Spanish explored more of South America as a result of the conquest of the Inca, establishing a settlement which they promptly abandoned, only to try again in 1580 once controlling the mouth of the river became critical to stop smugglers from the Andes avoiding shipping out of Callao. Likewise, the Inca are likely to see the Rio de La Plata as a strategic point of control not unlike the US and New Orleans. Not only are the Inca far closer, able to more easily ship settlers and soldiers than any European power, but they're also likely to see Buenos Aires as the ideal point of contact with Europe; a place to trade where they can easily send their goods downriver, cut out any Spanish middlemen from Panama and Colombia, and isolate Europeans to a single city where they are unlikely to venture into the heartland. I'd expect it to have a notable European population, likely plenty of Portuguese, Dutch, and English, but the Quechua will undoubtedly dominate such a settlement. The majority of Europeans won't be settling down as farmers; maybe their mixed offspring with local Quechua and Charrua will, but not too many. They won't die en masse and require constant replenishment of manpower like in the Indian Ocean and Sub-Saharan Africa, but their numbers are unlikely to be more than a large minority, even in a boomtown scenario.

The issue is finding it. Far bigger things to do at the moment.......

Contact between Buenos Aires and the Altiplano isn't as straightforward as you say, and I think the fact that IOTL Buenos Aires was unable to keep control of Alto Peru (but Lima managed to reassert its authority in the region) seems to point in that direction. The River Plate basin is part of the Paraná/Uruguay river system, and it leads to the Mato Grosso region of Southern Brazil, not towards the Andes, and its terrain is very different to what the Inca are used to, and while not unsuited to the Inca crops, European crops will thrive even more in the lowlands.

And, unlike the sparsely populated and primarily nomadic Pampas, the north of Argentina is populated by more organized tribes, both the ones that are already on the periphery of the Inca civilization in the Northwest and the tribes that populate the Chaco and the Northeast like the Guaraní or the Wichi/Qom, who proved tough nuts to crack even into the 20th century. Any advance into the plains will be made even harder by the introduction of horses to the Pampas, not unlike the impact they had on the Plains Indians in North America.

Everything that made the River Plate basin strategically significant IOTL will still be true ITTL, but with an even wealthier and more powerful Perú; in all likelihood, any settlement at the mouth of the River Plate will be important for the reasons you say, as a gateway from the Atlantic to South America and from South America to the Atlantic, but it's very, very far away from the powerbases of the different empires in the region (even Brazil had difficulty exerting its influence in the region successfully, with centuries of technological development in the interim), and the locals will be in a better position that IOTL.

It's worth noting that vassels were never really the style of the Tawantinsuyu....

Cool rulers will just build their own city. Which is why it would be totes mcgotes if a successor of Atahualpa moved to the capital to Jocay (Manta). But a costeño can dream, can he?

Cool Ruler:
Tupac_Amaru_Shakur2.jpg


Didn't Argentina spend half a century of its independence in various civil wars? I'm not well-versed in the area's history, but I recall this much. Saying that Argentina couldn't keep Bolivia seems...misleading when accounting for the fact that it's Argentina that's downriver to Bolivia as well and not vice-versa. If anything an entity centered in Bolivia not being able to control Buenos Aires would be a better point of contention. And Lima didn't reassert its authority over Bolivia; the Peru-Bolivian Confederation was essentially a Bolivian-led union and Lima spent its time in the union incredibly unhappy with not being the seat of power. Also: RIP Peru-Bolivia :(

As for subjugating the northern rivers, I don't see it as something impossible for the Inca to pull off at all. Right now they'd have a military edge over the natives that's likely only going to grow in the very near future, and the introduction of the horse is unlikely to greatly alter this for at least a few generations. I'm not trying to claim they'd be easy conquests, but I do believe the Inca would see it as the softest target out of all available options outside of, say, maritime adventures in the South Pacific and subjugating Easter Island or something. I could see the Inca being quite fascinated with China, much like the Europeans were.

EDIT: And I thought Brazil was primarily settled in the north in its early existence, with the South being settled much later. Not being able to project power easily in the region makes sense under that scenario.

As of now I think Atahualpa is more interested in the Dawn then the Dusk.....

Yes, but it lost control over the Altiplano during the Wars of Independence, not during the civil wars, precisely because it was easier for the Royalists to defend it from Lima than to attack it from Buenos Aires. There's very little incentive for a Bolivia-based entity to try and control the River Plate, because it's very, very far and wasn't even especially prosperous until smuggling became profitable -- the major cities were in the interior, even under Spanish rule, such as Santiago del Estero, Tucumán, Córdoba and Asunción.


Of course, but in the time period that the Inca have the greatest advantage over its neighbors will also be the time period where they're most at risk of Spanish incursions. Certainly they'll be able to make considerable inroads into its neighbors, but again, it's unlikely they'll manage to subjugate the Chaco and Pampa plains, just because they're very different to the sort of terrain they're familiar with.

As for the impact of horses, wild horses will spread quickly thanks to the incredibly favorable conditions (the same happened IOTL with cows too). Keep in mind, the spread of horses in the Pampas was even faster than the Great Plains (a herd of just twelve populated the plains in less than a century IOTL, and horses will arrive much sooner and in greater numbers ITTL). Basically, it won't be a soft target for long.

Subjegation requires stability.

In the last decades of the colonial era Spain transferred Alto Peru (Bolivia) from the Viceroyalty of Peru to the Viceroyalty of La Plata. Then when the independence wars begun the Peruvian viceroy Abascal invaded and took back Chile, Quito and in the battle of Huaqui in Alto Peru defeated the Argentinian revolutionaries.

It is however easier to decend of mountain then climb it....
 
I'm even more excited! Hopefully the butterflies hit China in a good way - I haven't seen a China wank in 4-5 months, and that's not a good thing.

(I'm actually wondering why almost every timeline I see is a China-screw.)
 
Last edited:
Well, great update anyway. By the way, will the Tawantinsuyo westernize, kind of how Japan did in OTL? I guess so, because otherwise they won't be able to survive.
 
Well, great update anyway. By the way, will the Tawantinsuyo westernize, kind of how Japan did in OTL? I guess so, because otherwise they won't be able to survive.
Well ATM "westernization"/"modernization" just means getting steel and guns and ships and horses. So it's not like they'll need to have huge reforms. The Inka were already masters of adapting technology.
 
It's worth noting that vassels were never really the style of the Tawantinsuyu....
But client states weren't uncommon, or am I wrong? And the Incas are already pretty deep into Northern Argentina IIRC, certainly they're on both sides of the Andes already. But is there much to draw them into the plains at this point? And the longer they take to do so, the more time for the people living on the very, very fertile Paraná basin to develop.

The introduction of the Mapuche as a dominant force in the South of the Pampas will be significant, but their northern range is still far from the most fertile lands. And it won't be long before the Europeans arrive in the region... it's going to be a very tumultuous time for the locals caught between the three.
 
But client states weren't uncommon, or am I wrong? And the Incas are already pretty deep into Northern Argentina IIRC, certainly they're on both sides of the Andes already. But is there much to draw them into the plains at this point? And the longer they take to do so, the more time for the people living on the very, very fertile Paraná basin to develop.

The introduction of the Mapuche as a dominant force in the South of the Pampas will be significant, but their northern range is still far from the most fertile lands. And it won't be long before the Europeans arrive in the region... it's going to be a very tumultuous time for the locals caught between the three.

Will the Europeans come fast, though? Without the conquest of Peru South America is still largely Portuguese by right, and they hardly do anything when it comes to colonization.
 
Will the Europeans come fast, though? Without the conquest of Peru South America is still largely Portuguese by right, and they hardly do anything when it comes to colonization.

Unless the Spanish overrun the Inca, I don't see them being interested in the region; they've already got Mexico to hopscotch across the Pacific to China, so the strategic benefits would be limited outside of doing so with the explicit reasoning of spiting the Inca. The English may be interested but are unlikely to do so in this time period, and unless Portugal is subjugated by the Spanish I don't see them wishing to antagonize them. If we get another empty Portuguese throne, however....who's to say?
 
At this point in time the Europeans weren't the colonial monsters they'd become. Spain only succeded in Mexico because it conquered it, not colonize it. There was a structure already in place that they could usurp, installing themselves as the upper class, using friendly/subordinate natives to suppress other natives.

Should the Mexican natives ever get ideas from the Inca defiance or even worst, support from them, Spain will have a lot of trouble keeping Mexico esp. given their brutality.
 
I think the Inca spreading into lowland Argentina is quite unlikely, the Andean people suffer from a population collapse and are more likely to recolonise what they already have than expand, short of those areas where they have a strategic interest in spreading. I could see the Inca having a interest to spread into Columbia (more on that later).

Also I don't know about bog iron to know whether it existed in the Andes, but the extraction of it was well known, still used at this point and much easier than mining, through the quality and quantity of the iron was lower. But it would be useful enough for arrow heads and axes.

Next a potential trading partner for the Inca could be the Welser who ran Venezuela as their own colony in the same periode (Klein Venedig). With the Charles V not getting the mineral riches from the Andes, he may not alienate the Welser family with confiscating Venezuela from them. The result could be that the Welser made contact with the Incas and began trading with them. They could serve as a middleman between the Spanish and the Incas. This could also lead the Incas to import European (German) settlers and specialists and buying African slaves to make up for some of the population loss, and to introduce European knowledge to the Incas. It could also lewad to Christianity being introduced, I think a conversion to Christianity (including one of the protestant branches) would help the Inca empire making it civilised in European eyes, but also introduce a literate class, and create a market for books. As paper usual used used cloth in this periode (until the 19th century), the Incas could easily create their own paper manufacturing if they can import European specialists.

In the lonbger run, I could see the Dutch who already serve as European port for Welser in their contact with Venezuela, could seek contact with the Incas after the Dutch revolt. This could introduce the Incas to Calvinism, which would have the benefit of not being connected to the Pope and Spain. A natural place for the Dutch to seek contact with the Incas, could be that they colonised the Rio de la Plata Basin, this would give them contact with the Incas in a region where the Spanish was weak.
 
Unless they're conquered they won't be turning Christian. They've got a set religion already, and while they'll tolerate Christians in their nation so long they recognize Inti as the most powerful God (they could spin it in the whole "Inti IS God" way), they won't be adopting an alien faith.
 
Ooooh boy.

:biggrin:

I guess this means we can likely expected Mapuche Wars 3.0 Electric Boogaloo, huh?

Well the Mapuche aint quietly going into the night.

I'm even more excited! Hopefully the butterflies hit China in a good way - I haven't seen a China wank in 4-5 months, and that's not a good thing.

*Hastily Scribbles Notes on the era*

(I'm actually wondering why almost every timeline I see is a China-screw.)

CHina has numerous advantages that give it power, screwing it keeps people from having to deal with them.

Other Tupaq

:angel:

Interesting thread.

Thanks.

Well, great update anyway. By the way, will the Tawantinsuyo westernize, kind of how Japan did in OTL? I guess so, because otherwise they won't be able to survive.

Modernize yes. But Westernization included much more then that, including some things that don't exist yet.....

Well ATM "westernization"/"modernization" just means getting steel and guns and ships and horses. So it's not like they'll need to have huge reforms. The Inka were already masters of adapting technology.

....that said social changes will come to the empire. It is inevitable

But client states weren't uncommon, or am I wrong? And the Incas are already pretty deep into Northern Argentina IIRC, certainly they're on both sides of the Andes already. But is there much to draw them into the plains at this point? And the longer they take to do so, the more time for the people living on the very, very fertile Paraná basin to develop.

There is little to appeal until word begins to drift back of the fertile lands, bordering the ocean of Europe's west.

The introduction of the Mapuche as a dominant force in the South of the Pampas will be significant, but their northern range is still far from the most fertile lands. And it won't be long before the Europeans arrive in the region... it's going to be a very tumultuous time for the locals caught between the three.

True.

Will the Europeans come fast, though? Without the conquest of Peru South America is still largely Portuguese by right, and they hardly do anything when it comes to colonization.

treaty-of-tordesillas.jpg

outline-map-of-brazil.gif

Rightfully given by the Pope only goes so far...........


Unless the Spanish overrun the Inca, I don't see them being interested in the region; they've already got Mexico to hopscotch across the Pacific to China, so the strategic benefits would be limited outside of doing so with the explicit reasoning of spiting the Inca. The English may be interested but are unlikely to do so in this time period, and unless Portugal is subjugated by the Spanish I don't see them wishing to antagonize them. If we get another empty Portuguese throne, however....who's to say?

Intrest is not always conquest.....

At this point in time the Europeans weren't the colonial monsters they'd become. Spain only succeded in Mexico because it conquered it, not colonize it. There was a structure already in place that they could usurp, installing themselves as the upper class, using friendly/subordinate natives to suppress other natives.

Still monsters, but you are right that ursurpation was the Spanish game.

Should the Mexican natives ever get ideas from the Inca defiance or even worst, support from them, Spain will have a lot of trouble keeping Mexico esp. given their brutality.

Yep.

I think the Inca spreading into lowland Argentina is quite unlikely, the Andean people suffer from a population collapse and are more likely to recolonise what they already have than expand, short of those areas where they have a strategic interest in spreading. I could see the Inca having a interest to spread into Columbia (more on that later).

"The crops grow well in the Andes. Why should we change?"

Also I don't know about bog iron to know whether it existed in the Andes, but the extraction of it was well known, still used at this point and much easier than mining, through the quality and quantity of the iron was lower. But it would be useful enough for arrow heads and axes.

Iron making is one thing, a thing where the Inca are on there way, quality to match your average foundry in Europe is another.

Next a potential trading partner for the Inca could be the Welser who ran Venezuela as their own colony in the same periode (Klein Venedig). With the Charles V not getting the mineral riches from the Andes, he may not alienate the Welser family with confiscating Venezuela from them.

OTOH if he still thinks El Derado is there and he needs cash.....

The result could be that the Welser made contact with the Incas and began trading with them. They could serve as a middleman between the Spanish and the Incas.

Provided the Inca want anything to do with the Spanish.

This could also lead the Incas to import European (German) settlers and specialists and buying African slaves to make up for some of the population loss, and to introduce European knowledge to the Incas.

Slaves are not all that efficient outside plantations.

It could also lewad to Christianity being introduced, I think a conversion to Christianity (including one of the protestant branches) would help the Inca empire making it civilised in European eyes, but also introduce a literate class, and create a market for books. As paper usual used used cloth in this periode (until the 19th century), the Incas could easily create their own paper manufacturing if they can import European specialists.

How much do they care about how Europe sees them? That is the question.

In the lonbger run, I could see the Dutch who already serve as European port for Welser in their contact with Venezuela, could seek contact with the Incas after the Dutch revolt. This could introduce the Incas to Calvinism, which would have the benefit of not being connected to the Pope and Spain. A natural place for the Dutch to seek contact with the Incas, could be that they colonised the Rio de la Plata Basin, this would give them contact with the Incas in a region where the Spanish was weak.

The Dutch. Saviors of better off natives getting shunned by the rest of Europe in 1000 Alt-TLs.

Unless they're conquered they won't be turning Christian. They've got a set religion already, and while they'll tolerate Christians in their nation so long they recognize Inti as the most powerful God (they could spin it in the whole "Inti IS God" way), they won't be adopting an alien faith.

Not wholesale certainly.
 
I really like how you're developing this idea. Subscri.... err, I mean I'll be watching. I've already learned a few things (and what more a person can ask for?).:biggrin:
 
:biggrin:
How much do they care about how Europe sees them? That is the question.

Not wholesale certainly.

I don't see why they need to convert to Christianity. China, Japan, the Ottomans, Arabs, and India all didn't convert to Christianity, but they still traded with the Europeans. In fact, Japan set up worship of the Sun God, with the emperor being a descendent of the sun god.
 
Top