Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
While any conflict between the British and Japanese is ITTL at present a long way off, and much can change between the situation now and the situation in December of 1941. The wings of the butterfly are now beginning to beat strongly, and much of the situation as was IOTL, will have changed, while some things will essentially remain the same. Let’s look at what will change, the attitude of the British towards events in the Far East, and the response to them. Britain wasn’t blind to the increasing threat that Japan represented to British interests in the Far East, and had taken major actions to deal with them. But prior to the collapse of France in 1940, the British response had been predicated on their response being predominately Navel. The significant spending on the building of the fleet base in Singapore, the construction of the aircraft carrier Ark Royal, were all aimed at containing the Japanese threat. However as always the best laid plans of mice and men, came to nought.

Britain which had seen the Mediterranean as a safe backwater, with the French slated to take the major role, both on land as at sea. The French Fleet was to contain any Italian ambitions, and the French Army of Africa, to sandwich the Italians in North Africa, between themselves and the British in Egypt. Thus Britain could afford to send a significant fleet to Singapore, given how week the Germans were in fleet units, and this fleet would act as a deterrent to Japanese ambitions, given that the Japanese had to worry about American forces in the Pacific. All this planing fell to the wayside once the French collapsed, and withdrew from the conflict. Suddenly not only had the Mediterranean become a site of major conflict with the intervention of Italy, and the cutting of the principal supply route to India and the Far East. But in addition the entry of Japanese forces into FIF, changed the threat to Malaya and Singapore, from a principally Naval one, to a combined land, sea and air threat. What had been a simple threat, do able with some strain, now was a complex threat, that required significant deployment of scarce resources. The major fleet units that were needed in the Far East, were also needed right now in the Mediterranean. And the same with troops and aircraft, the two or three Indian devisions that could have been sent to Malaya, pre war experienced troops, were now needed in Egypt and the Middle East, Iraq, to contain Italian, Iraqi and German ambitions. Aircraft that would have been surplus to requirements in Britain, and sent east, along with the engineering effort to build airfields, have all been diverted to the Middle East.

So what has changed ITTL, France has collapsed as it did IOTL, Italy has entered the war as it did IOTL. But the French collapse while similar to that of OTL, it wasn’t the same, and the British were able to give the Germans a much harder blow, and were more successful in their evacuation effort. They were also able to evacuate more equipment at lower cost, in naval resources, and were able to remove significant examples of German equipment. This has reduced the level of invasion fear in the British establishment, which at present are using said fear as a tactic to unite the British public in the war effort. While they, the establishment, are much more relaxed with Winston sending resources to the Middle East. And events there have played out much better for the British than they did IOTL, with the British established to the east of Benghazi, and beginning to get dug in, before the Germans are even begun to deploy. It’s now eleven weeks before the possible events of the Bismarck Hood encounter. Given that the butterfly wings have been beating, will the Bismarck sail on the same day, will the weather be the same, will the outcome be the same. Without the lucky hit that lead to the sinking of Hood, might that encounter have a different result. Hit by shells from both Hood and P.O.W could this result in the sinking of both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, its a toss of the coin, which will have a major effect on the course of the war. Instead of sending just P.O.W and Repulse to Singapore, we might see other units sent instead, or additional units added to the mix including an aircraft carrier. Imagine how force Z would look if it contained, K.G.V, P.O.W, Ark Royal and Indomitable, this would give the Japanese a major headache. Do they change their plans and split the carrier force, thus reducing the weight of the attack on Pearl Harbour. Or stick to their original plan, and hope that land based aircraft can deal with the reinforced British Fleet. Enough has changed ITTL now that we are in the field where events are now very much in the hands of the author.

Re,the fate of both Hood and Ark Royal, Ark Royal without the need to run resupply convoys from Gibraltar, as they can now be far more economically run from Alexandria, will not be in the same position she was on the 14th of November 41. As for Hood, those of us who follow Drachinfel’s excellent Pod Casts on U Tube, will note that he is very much of the opinion that the sinking was a Golden BB, and some slight changes will see it not happen.

RR.
 
Also Plan matador looked good. race into Siam and block the roads south at that cutting whose name escapes me. But it had one fatal flaw. The Foreign office! The plan needed to be executed as soon as landing ships were detected at sea, to give the troops time to reach the defensible obstacle and entrench. BUT, you can't just invade a neutral country (well, you can if you are Germany, Russia, Italy or Japan) because you SUSPECT the Japanese are going to attack. You have to convince the Foreign Office this is not just a rumour before you fight your way across the border. And that takes time to get approval. And if you can't get there before the Japanese, you are now stuck on a long thin poorly maintained road out of position. So if you can't execute Matador as planned, you have to fall back on other plans, which probably haven't been properly practiced or examined.
While I on the whole agree with the 'Malaya can be sufficiently reinforced if the British win the North Africa campaign before the Japanese kick off their Southern Resource Area landgrab' camp, this is very much a valid point. One might expect, however, that a general with recent wartime experience with the debacle Greece is likely to turn into is going to realize that the foreign office is almost as much of a problem for the armed forces as the treasury.
 
While any conflict between the British and Japanese is ITTL at present a long way off, and much can change between the situation now and the situation in December of 1941. The wings of the butterfly are now beginning to beat strongly, and much of the situation as was IOTL, will have changed, while some things will essentially remain the same. Let’s look at what will change, the attitude of the British towards events in the Far East, and the response to them. Britain wasn’t blind to the increasing threat that Japan represented to British interests in the Far East, and had taken major actions to deal with them. But prior to the collapse of France in 1940, the British response had been predicated on their response being predominately Navel. The significant spending on the building of the fleet base in Singapore, the construction of the aircraft carrier Ark Royal, were all aimed at containing the Japanese threat. However as always the best laid plans of mice and men, came to nought.

Britain which had seen the Mediterranean as a safe backwater, with the French slated to take the major role, both on land as at sea. The French Fleet was to contain any Italian ambitions, and the French Army of Africa, to sandwich the Italians in North Africa, between themselves and the British in Egypt. Thus Britain could afford to send a significant fleet to Singapore, given how week the Germans were in fleet units, and this fleet would act as a deterrent to Japanese ambitions, given that the Japanese had to worry about American forces in the Pacific. All this planing fell to the wayside once the French collapsed, and withdrew from the conflict. Suddenly not only had the Mediterranean become a site of major conflict with the intervention of Italy, and the cutting of the principal supply route to India and the Far East. But in addition the entry of Japanese forces into FIF, changed the threat to Malaya and Singapore, from a principally Naval one, to a combined land, sea and air threat. What had been a simple threat, do able with some strain, now was a complex threat, that required significant deployment of scarce resources. The major fleet units that were needed in the Far East, were also needed right now in the Mediterranean. And the same with troops and aircraft, the two or three Indian devisions that could have been sent to Malaya, pre war experienced troops, were now needed in Egypt and the Middle East, Iraq, to contain Italian, Iraqi and German ambitions. Aircraft that would have been surplus to requirements in Britain, and sent east, along with the engineering effort to build airfields, have all been diverted to the Middle East.

So what has changed ITTL, France has collapsed as it did IOTL, Italy has entered the war as it did IOTL. But the French collapse while similar to that of OTL, it wasn’t the same, and the British were able to give the Germans a much harder blow, and were more successful in their evacuation effort. They were also able to evacuate more equipment at lower cost, in naval resources, and were able to remove significant examples of German equipment. This has reduced the level of invasion fear in the British establishment, which at present are using said fear as a tactic to unite the British public in the war effort. While they, the establishment, are much more relaxed with Winston sending resources to the Middle East. And events there have played out much better for the British than they did IOTL, with the British established to the east of Benghazi, and beginning to get dug in, before the Germans are even begun to deploy. It’s now eleven weeks before the possible events of the Bismarck Hood encounter. Given that the butterfly wings have been beating, will the Bismarck sail on the same day, will the weather be the same, will the outcome be the same. Without the lucky hit that lead to the sinking of Hood, might that encounter have a different result. Hit by shells from both Hood and P.O.W could this result in the sinking of both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, its a toss of the coin, which will have a major effect on the course of the war. Instead of sending just P.O.W and Repulse to Singapore, we might see other units sent instead, or additional units added to the mix including an aircraft carrier. Imagine how force Z would look if it contained, K.G.V, P.O.W, Ark Royal and Indomitable, this would give the Japanese a major headache. Do they change their plans and split the carrier force, thus reducing the weight of the attack on Pearl Harbour. Or stick to their original plan, and hope that land based aircraft can deal with the reinforced British Fleet. Enough has changed ITTL now that we are in the field where events are now very much in the hands of the author.

Re,the fate of both Hood and Ark Royal, Ark Royal without the need to run resupply convoys from Gibraltar, as they can now be far more economically run from Alexandria, will not be in the same position she was on the 14th of November 41. As for Hood, those of us who follow Drachinfel’s excellent Pod Casts on U Tube, will note that he is very much of the opinion that the sinking was a Golden BB, and some slight changes will see it not happen.

RR.
Mm, if Operation Excess went of as per OTL, I can't see that the Bismarck's rampage would be changed. What might get changed is that HMS Formidable manages to avoid getting bombed during Greece/Crete, which would allow her to be transferred to Singapore along with the Repulse and Prince of Wales and thus be able to provide air cover for them.
 
Mm, if Operation Excess went of as per OTL, I can't see that the Bismarck's rampage would be changed. What might get changed is that HMS Formidable manages to avoid getting bombed during Greece/Crete, which would allow her to be transferred to Singapore along with the Repulse and Prince of Wales and thus be able to provide air cover for them.
The RAF could have provided air cover!

No need for a deck.
 
The RAF could have provided air cover!

No need for a deck.
Yeah, I believe a request was made for RAF air cover (and aircrfat designated) .. that went as well as could be expected ..
Admiral Philips, according to Wikipedia, was as competent as everyone else in charge at Singapore -
So he didn't bother to tell the RAF guys when he set sail, and, given his insistance on radio silence, they didn't bother to shadow him .. but the Japanese did (which he was, apparenty, aware of) .. then the radar ranging control for his high levels AA guns was inoperative and the tropical damp had got into the 2pdr pom-pom ammunition ...
With Admiral Philips in charge, Force Z is doomed (he's the sort of guy who would run his ship onto the rocks and then complain that 1) the rocks had no right to be there and 2) anyway he was senior and had right of way ...)

DO NOT give this guy any more ships .. he will loose them all ..

EDIT theres a bit in wiki that suggests the RN was 'unaware' of the capability of airpower. This is nonsense = in ww1, the RN sank, with aerial torpedoes, 3 Turkish ships. At the end of ww1 they had hundreds of torpedo bombers. These, of course, were all handed over to the RAF ... then there were the Billy Mitchall 'tests' and, don't forget Taranto (oh, look, ancient biplane torpedo bombers just sank a load of Italian balttleships - that's plainly impossible, who could spread such lies) ... finally, Pearl Harbour had happened the previous day so meant no US reinforcements and one reaon why this hero was sallying forth on a do or die mission to sink the Japanese invasion forces (which he failed to find, possibly because he decided he would have a better chance of spotting the Japanese ships than the RAF would)
 
Last edited:
Don't be daft now.....

DtH-b-qWkAAndO7.jpg
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Yeah, I believe a request was made for RAF air cover (and aircrfat designated) .. that went as well as could be expected ..
Admiral Philips, according to Wikipedia, was as competent as everyone else in charge at Singapore -
So he didn't bother to tell the RAF guys when he set sail, and, given his insistance on radio silence, they didn't bother to shadow him .. but the Japanese did (which he was, apparenty, aware of) .. then the radar ranging control for his high levels AA guns was inoperative and the tropical damp had got into the 2pdr pom-pom ammunition ...
With Admiral Philips in charge, Force Z is doomed (he's the sort of guy who would run his ship onto the rocks and then complain that 1) the rocks had no right to be there and 2) anyway he was senior and had right of way ...)

DO NOT give this guy any more ships .. he will loose them all ..

EDIT theres a bit in wiki that suggests the RN was 'unaware' of the capability of airpower. This is nonsense = in ww1, the RN sank, with aerial torpedoes, 3 Turkish ships. At the end of ww1 they had hundreds of torpedo bombers. These, of course, were all handed over to the RAF ... then there were the Billy Mitchall 'tests' and, don't forget Taranto (oh, look, ancient biplane torpedo bombers just sank a load of Italian balttleships - that's plainly impossible, who could spread such lies) ... finally, Pearl Harbour had happened the previous day so meant no US reinforcements and one reaon why this hero was sallying forth on a do or die mission to sink the Japanese invasion forces (which he failed to find, possibly because he decided he would have a better chance of spotting the Japanese ships than the RAF would)
Phillips was aware of the threat of air power, but believed the Japanese did not have a TBR with the range to threaten Force Z from their bases in French Indochina. And they were pretty much at the limits of their range. First time he would have realised he was in trouble was when Tenedos reported being (not very accurately) bombed.

OTOH he never radioed for air cover, even after the first attack and after the PoW was crippled, at which point radio silence to keep hidden from your enemy was possibly redundant. It was Tennant in Repulse who actually made the call.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top