Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vanguard to me sounds like too excellent a name for some front line vehicle - a tank, a scout car or anything in between - to be applied to a vehicle which really should be a few hundred yards back in most scenarios.
Agreed, 'Vanguard' sounds like a perfect name for a potential Victor successor, the much-anticipated 'can we make a Centurion-equivalent before the war is over?'
As the de facto type-setter for the modern MBT, Vanguard is rather ideal for a Centurion.

Maybe 'Vindicator' or 'Vanquisher' for the SPAAG platform?
 
I don’t know what the availability and condition of any airfields in Rhodes was in 1941, but I will take a guess, and say very poor.
Actually, Rhodes being Italian, the Germans don't have to build any airfields there. It already had four .. at Maritza, near Rhodes town, Kattavia on the southern tip of the island, Gadurra on the coast near Kalathos and Kalathos itself. There were CR 42s stationed on the Island as well as S79s. In fact on 19 October 1940, Italian bombers from Rhodes flew a 2800 mile round trip to bomb the refineries at Bahrein before refuelling in Eritrea and returning to Rhodes.
When the Italians attacked Greece in October 1940, and the British forces started landing in Crete, they Italians raided the convoy with 14 S79 escorted by 6 CR42s. On 29th Jan , some 17 HeIII of II/KG26, a few recon Ju88D from I(f)/121 and supporting Ju52/3m transferred from Sicily to Rhodes.
This lent some urgency to the planning of Op Mandible. a plane to invade Rhodes using the newly formed and thus inexperienced commando units. The plan was to first land on Castellorizzo then island hop to Rhodes. I won't go onto the details of the Operation but it was a failure.
On the night 30/31 January, the Germans carried out their first mining of the Suez Canal from Rhodes, experiencing light AA fire. Airborne minesweeping was used and by a chance one mine was exploded just before the SS Dominion Monarch was due to sail over it. The sinking would have closed the Canal for about three months!
Over the next few weeks other mines from that sortie sank 2 more ships, fortunately not totally blocking the Canal.
 
Agreed, 'Vanguard' sounds like a perfect name for a potential Victor successor, the much-anticipated 'can we make a Centurion-equivalent before the war is over?'
As the de facto type-setter for the modern MBT, Vanguard is rather ideal for a Centurion.

Maybe 'Vindicator' or 'Vanquisher' for the SPAAG platform?
I am going to suggest the SPAAG platform be named "Vigilant". Starts with "V", plays off "Valiant" well, and describes what ack ack really needs to be.
 
There'll still be a few in England as training tanks, just as in OTL.
OTL production of the A11 continued into August. ITTL production was finished in February/March (forget which), and all the extant models were rushed to France, thus keeping Calais going another few days.

Actually, Rhodes being Italian, the Germans don't have to build any airfields there. It already had four .. at Maritza, near Rhodes town, Kattavia on the southern tip of the island, Gadurra on the coast near Kalathos and Kalathos itself. There were CR 42s stationed on the Island as well as S79s. In fact on 19 October 1940, Italian bombers from Rhodes flew a 2800 mile round trip to bomb the refineries at Bahrein before refuelling in Eritrea and returning to Rhodes.
When the Italians attacked Greece in October 1940, and the British forces started landing in Crete, they Italians raided the convoy with 14 S79 escorted by 6 CR42s. On 29th Jan , some 17 HeIII of II/KG26, a few recon Ju88D from I(f)/121 and supporting Ju52/3m transferred from Sicily to Rhodes.
This lent some urgency to the planning of Op Mandible. a plane to invade Rhodes using the newly formed and thus inexperienced commando units. The plan was to first land on Castellorizzo then island hop to Rhodes. I won't go onto the details of the Operation but it was a failure.
On the night 30/31 January, the Germans carried out their first mining of the Suez Canal from Rhodes, experiencing light AA fire. Airborne minesweeping was used and by a chance one mine was exploded just before the SS Dominion Monarch was due to sail over it. The sinking would have closed the Canal for about three months!
Over the next few weeks other mines from that sortie sank 2 more ships, fortunately not totally blocking the Canal.
Well here, the position on Rhodes will be far more tenuous, since Crete will be in Allied hands.

As to V names, what about 'ventilator'? It'll be good at adding impromptu ventilation (ie, large holes) to German tanks.
 
Last edited:
Oh yes, that's a much better name. Vanquisher might be a good name for a SPG now that I think of it, much as I like the idea of keeping the tradition of the Birch Gun and naming SPGs after trees.
"The Vesuvius was a limited production assault tank built for the Royal Engineers. In place of the normal gun, it was fitted with an 11" spigot mortar that fired a high explosive demolition charge weighing 40 pounds."
 
Last edited:
"The Vesuvius was a limited production assault tank built for the Royal Engineers. In place of the normal gun, it was fitted with an 11" spigot mortar that fired a high explosive demolition charge weighing 40 pounds."
Even the name might unnerve the Italians slightly in this case.
 
Except the most in OTL sonnenblume was 1 german division - 5th light (which wasn't much more than brigade strength), and 3 italian - Ariete armoured, and Brescia "motorized".
Well there were bit of two German divisions.

And you've missed off Savona, Trento and Pavia from the italian side which could have been used and were in theatre
 
15th did not start arriving until May so not really part of Sonnenblume. And the Italians wanted to keep some divisions on the French/Tunisian border so that. And then keep a couple of divisions without tpt to fortify Tripoli?
 
"The Vesuvius was a limited production assault tank built for the Royal Engineers. In place of the normal gun, it was fitted with an 11" spigot mortar that fired a high explosive demolition charge weighing 40 pounds."
Surely you would save Vesuvius for the flamethrower version?

Also assuming the British stick with religious names for Self-propelled guns then there may well be a Victor based model would be called the Vicar?
 
"The Vesuvius was a limited production assault tank built for the Royal Engineers. In place of the normal gun, it was fitted with an 11" spigot mortar that fired a high explosive demolition charge weighing 40 pounds."
Think the weight of shot is a bit off as a 6.5 inch ( 165mm ) L9 Demolition gun used on Centurion AVRE's fired a 40lb HESH round.
 
15th did not start arriving until May so not really part of Sonnenblume. And the Italians wanted to keep some divisions on the French/Tunisian border so that. And then keep a couple of divisions without tpt to fortify Tripoli?
Sabratha was fulfilling garrison duties at this time plus some other misc. units.
 
A few thoughts about the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean ITTL.
Just remember my starting position for most things is that OTL events will pretty much be as they were, unless the changes in British tanks makes a difference. So Luftwaffe operations in the Mediterranean will pretty much be the same as they were.
If the British retain control of Benghazi, this will bring major advantages for the British. They can now provide air cover for their convoys to Malta, without having to organise a major fleet campaign including their precious Aircraft Carriers. They can also provide reenforcement aircraft without having to risk their Aircraft Carriers, as even fighters can manage the hop from Benghazi to Malta. Bomber Aircraft flying from forward bases in Benghazi, can carry out a program of attacks on the principle supply port for the Germans Tripoli. Including the dropping of mines in the approaches to the harbour, causing the week Italian navy to carry out mine sweeping, and delaying any convoy.
The build up of the RAF, RAAF and SAAF all will take time, the same amount of time as they did OTL. Having land based fighters and bombers around the Benghazi area will help, if they can be logistically supported. On top of all the increased British and Australian forces in the area too.
All in all, if the British retain control of Benghazi and Crete, the Luftwaffe is in for a world of hurt, and events ITTL, are going to take a major division from those IOTL.
RR.
Again, hopefully. But in fact the Luftwaffe's attempts to mine the Suez canal was actually pretty successful. They also used acoustic and magnetic mines, and the British had no solution to the acoustic mine. Stringing nets over the canal to see where the mines broke through, having men posted all along the length of the canal to watch for mines dropping to mark them. Increasing the numbers of searchlights and AA guns. It caused quite a headache.
Congrats on the Turtledove @allanpcameron - a well-deserved award for a fine writer.
Much appreciate, thank you.
As an ole COMINT guy, it does my heart good to read a post like yours...
Thanks for your service, and, please point out any defects you see here.
That means that North Africa and supporting the Afrika Korps is relegated to at best 3rd place.
Again, hopefully, but we've got a way to go. The British Empire also has a lot on their plate.
Speaking of Malta, is Keith Park AOC on the island ITTL? Have Leigh Mallory and co managed to get Dowding and Park sidelined? As he literally refought the Battle of Britain there ITL.
Whatever happened OTL happens TTL unless better British tanks makes a difference.
Congratulations for the victory! Well-deserved, that.
Cheers. I wish I had time to read more of the other threads. I've never even gone into pre-1900 to see what's there. Shamed to admit it.
This is only too true. Still, things going better in the Mediterranean might mean that instead of the Dieppe raid, the first British landings as the landing craft get designed and tested are carried out against major islands in the Mediterranean, instead of against occupied France.
The arrival of the Glens, the first converted LSI is due in March for a spot of work in the Dodecanese. Obviously that didn't happen so much because of circumstances. But it might be nice to see what could have/should have happened. Now, DD Valiants....
Might you be thinking too small? There ought to be a Victor variant with hextuple or octuple Pom-Poms, surely.
I just want some ZSU-23-4 action.
Sending the A13s to Greece as the first armoured units to be deployed there makes a fair deal of sense. A 15 ton cruiser tank is likely to go more places in the low-infrastructure mountainous terrain which makes up the bulk of Greece, particularly without Royal Engineers´building and reinforcig bridges. Also, I'd take it the A13 is the much cheaper alternative to write off.
Writing off was on my mind!
This is a major key to future success in my mind. The British soldiers are not afraid of the Germans, not moreso at least than they feel any fear facing any potentially deadly battle. However, the senior officers are far from overconfindent and even without German forces present, thet.
If we can avoid a Benghazi Derby it should help morale. Certainly at the end of Compass here the XIII Corps aren't as completely shot as they were OTL. More betta tanks...

Actually, Rhodes being Italian, the Germans don't have to build any airfields there. ... Over the next few weeks other mines from that sortie sank 2 more ships, fortunately not totally blocking the Canal.
If you wanted pods there are plenty there. If they'd been successful enough, what would that have meant for the RN, the replacement carrier for Illustrious, Formidable hadn't been able to come through the canal?
Surely you would save Vesuvius for the flamethrower version?
Also assuming the British stick with religious names for Self-propelled guns then there may well be a Victor based model would be called the Vicar?
Flamethrower tank we'll come back to. Some Italian versions were captured at Mechili TTL.
The Bishop got its name from the turret, looked a bit like a Bishop's Mitre. The Priest was because of the pulpit like MG position. So the SPGs in this TL probably won't have those names. Birch, oak etc are interesting names, as others have mentioned.

Thanks again everybody.
Allan.
 
Something that might make Rhodes a target is that in October 1940 the Italian air force launched a raid on Bahrain from there.
 
28 January 1941. Kassala. Sudan.
28 January 1941. Kassala. Sudan.

The 24 Matilda II Infantry Tanks of 42nd Bn RTR, A Squadron (less one troop), with C and HQ Squadrons, organised themselves having gotten off the train that had carried them up through Khartoum. They had arrived with 30 tanks, but discovered that whoever had packed the spares had made a serious error. Instead of Matilda II spares, there were 15 tons of material to keep Mark VI light tanks going. It was decided to cannibalise six Matildas to keep the rest running. At least the fuel shipped along with them was diesel and not petrol, otherwise their presence in Sudan would have been completely pointless. Messages were sent back to Egypt to see if the mistake could be corrected, but since there weren't any Matilda IIs in Egypt, it would take a long time to fix the problem.

Waiting for them were B Squadron of the 51st Battalion RTR. Only seven of their original 15 A11s were still running, but they were going back to Egypt to rest and refit, possibly also to take over some new tanks and were happy to do so. There was the usual back and forth between two units of men, with some useful advice being passed and lots more insults and banter.


Also waiting for the Infantry Tanks was General Beresford-Peirse, GOC 4th Indian Division. The role the 48th Bn RTR had played in the battle at Sidi Barrani was now legendary, and Beresford-Peirse and his men were looking forward to cooperating with tanks again. The Matilda II was a different kettle of fish from the Valiant, but the Indian troops were waiting to show what they had learned cooperating with tanks. In some ways over the next day or so, it was the Indians who taught the 42nd Bn RTR men how best to overcome an enemy by artillery, infantry and tanks working together.

Meanwhile the men of B Squadron 51st Bn RTR were fast asleep as soon as the train pulled away from the siding where they had loaded their tanks.

NB Text in italic differs from OTL. The part about sending the wrong parts happened. Cannibalising six out of 30 is proportionate to what they had to do. It still gives them far more Infantry tanks than they had. I'm not going to do much about the East Africa battles. They will go much the same as the did OTL, but having more tanks might shave a bit of time off the campaign. The A11s heading back to Egypt is most of the reason for this update.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top