Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[allanpcameron]

29 January 1941. Rome, Italy.

The German Military Attaché in Rome Major-General Enno von Rintelen had been keeping Berlin well informed of developments in Cyrenaica. He was personally acquainted with the ground, and had been following with great interest the clash in the desert between two European Powers, each with up-to-date weapons and equipment. The problem, as he saw it, was that the Italians weren’t are as advanced in their re-armament as the British. Also, the British understood the use of mobile warfare much better. The Italian invasion of Egypt had relied on mass, but the logistics made that too slow. The British however had used their motorised troops to pick off the Italians piecemeal. It was really quite impressive.

In his current report von Rintelen noted that the Deputy Chief of the Supreme General Staff General Alfredo Guzzoni had informed him it would only be possible to hold a fortified camp at Tripoli itself. Von Rintelen had told him to his face that he was far from satisfied with this defeatist outlook. If nothing more than a local defence of Tripoli were intended it would be useless to send German troops to Africa at all. The Italians were strengthening their air force, but their navy was making no attempt to intervene with the British establishing a new base at Tobruk. When pressed whether the Italians could hold the British for long enough to allow the German forces to arrive, Guzzoni had replied in the affirmative. The two Italian Divisions that were being rushed to Tripoli would allow a forward defence, possibly at Sirte, with the main line at Misurata.

The initial German plan had been for an anti-tank formation to be sent, but now was obviously insufficient. From a German point of view, it was essential that the defence should be conducted aggressively. Von Rintelen had communicated that there were conditions on German divisions being sent. Firstly, the Italians needed to hold on, and did not retreat to Tripoli. Secondly, Malta must be bombed incessantly to reduce the scale of attack on shipping, and the British fleet must be prevented from establishing any new bases to support the advancing forces. These conditions had been accepted, Marshal Graziani had resigned, and replaced by General Italo Gariboldi.

When von Rintelen’s report arrived in Berlin and was discussed, orders were sent out to the units designated as 5th Light Division to prepare for embarkation to Libya.

NB This is all as OTL, though some of it is slightly accelerated.

 

[allanpcameron]

Over the next few days there will be some some short updates to put in some background.
Allan

 

[MattII]

Cool. Not that the Germans can really do anything at this point, they're working with the cast-offs of the Berbarossa buildup, and won't have nearly the strength to dislodge the British.

 

[kelgar04]

Hmm Germans can’t really do much with the lead up to Russian operations adding to this the intact base at Tobruk means the navy can run light warships out of there fairly easily which means interceptions become easier since you can run them our of there as well as the embattled grand harbour in Malta which mean convoy intercepts become easier.

 

[Colin Haggett]

Kangaroos can be vicious and wombats are nothing to sneer at.

 

[MattII]

Kangaroos can be vicious and wombats are nothing to sneer at.

Um, sure. Not sure what either would be doing in North Africa though.

 

[MarcH]

Some more good updates. Looking forward to the next lot.

A few notes, musings and query's.

Just remember my starting position for most things is that OTL events will pretty much be as they were, unless the changes in British tanks makes a difference. So Luftwaffe operations in the Mediterranean will pretty much be the same as they were.

While this is understandable you may need to be wary. More than just the British tanks have changed and there are already driver's to make some quite big changes not directly because of Tanks but influenced by them. A cheep example will be situation C is influenced by situation B that does not contain tanks, Situation B however was in part determined by Situation A that does contain British tanks. Obviously that is a bit nebulous but I hope illustrates the potential issue, I also assume you have already thought about this but felt it should be said.
We have also already skirted around this but, other than the A11, the most important thing Carden has given Britain is Time. Whilst there is something to be said for that allowing Britain to take the time needed on things like Tanks it is also possible for Britain to stop and think. For me when I look at how Britain behaved during the war I see a lot of reacting to events and trying to make what they have work. That is partly because events were simply going against them for the first 3 or so years. The other problem though was they never really had chance to stop and review things, they continued with what they had because they had no time to try and consider any alternatives. That is, I think at least, particularly true with tanks and can perhaps be illustrated very well with them. Pretty much as soon as Britain got some breathing space to think about what kind of tank it really wanted in late 42 and early 43 they came to the conclusion we want a Universal tank, as a stop gap however Comet and Black Prince were set in motion as quick fixes.
It is also important to note that any improvement tanks bring on the battlefield will have wider consequences. Take the possible scenario in North Africa. The Germans arrive and either try to hold the British or attack them. Either way things don't go well for the Germans and Britain gets one or more victories against the vaunted Germans and their panzer's early. That will affect how Britain is perceived by other nations that will impact how they they interact with Britain. The obvious case is America where a reevaluation of Britain may well happen, particularly if Britain puts up at least a reasonable show in Greece. This kind of went on longer than I thought it would so gonna stop now.

The British holding Crete opens up some rather interesting possibilities for naval operations. Now Crete as well as helping protect the eastern Mediterranean also allows the British to put quite a bit of pressure on Rhodes. Firstly Crete has the ability to hold far more aircraft as well as boats/ships than Rhodes, this is balanced out by mainland Greece but Rhodes is fairly isolated. It isn't inconceivable that the Aegean becomes a battleground for not only aircraft but also Submarines, MTB's and MGB's. I can also see Britain getting idea's about invading Crete along with Kasos and Karpathos, gives you a nice little barrier that does. The prospect may be enough to even prevent Dieppe. Probably wont be enough to keep Winston quiet though.

OK I know I said I was done but random thought occurred when considering Crete and I ran with it. So an unintended consequence of better tanks could be no Hawker Tempest, at least not as we knew it also Typhoon II and drop tanks sooner. So as has been previously discussed Crete as a base for the RAF will be "problematical" to the Germans and Hitler in particular. Suppressing Crete will be given a pretty high priority I imagine so will require a decent fighter force to defend it. That will be a force above and beyond what was needed OTL. Now the potential good thing for the British is if they can hold Tobruk then it is only a short 220ish mile hop straight north to Crete, easily within the range of Spitfires and Hurricanes. That means that as long as you can get enough fighters to Tobruk, assuming it is held by the British, you can get them to Crete to defend the island. The problem for the British will be getting enough fighters, particularly as Malta is also in play a lot more if Benghazi is held. The 410 or so mile flight is again within range for both Spitfires and Hurricanes meaning that not only will it be potentially possible to get far more fighters to Malta easier but you aren't risking naval assets to do it. So that is two locations that will need a lot of fighter aircraft and they are both likely to be within easy-ish reach of land based air bases to act as crossing points. That adds an extra drain on the number of fighters Britain is building and I am wondering how, if this scenario plays out, will Britain go about meeting it. My guess would be prioritise existing fighter production so more Spitfires and Hurricanes which could possibly delay the full transition to the Typhoon. Yes Gloster and a couple other companies were getting geared up to build the Typhoon around this time but that was only a small part of production. So Britain is focusing more on existing planes and limiting the switch to newer types in the interim, what does that mean for the newer types and existing ones.

• Will the Hurricane see upgrades it did not in OTL. I don't think this is that likely but thought I would ask the question.
• Could the Typhoon II upgrades go ahead instead of the OTL delay and switch to Tempest. The changes were ready in October 41 so in a scenario where the switch to the Typhoon has been delayed and the issues in the airframe are known could they get pushed ahead with as the Hurricane will be really suffering and you have less Typhoons to cover.

On top of all that potential shenanigans the flight from Benghazi to Malta is just doable for spitfires so range extending tanks will be a bonus. Slipper tanks were used by the RAF and I wonder if they become more common quicker and drop tanks are picked up sooner. Now this is dependant on what happens in North Africa. If Benghazi falls it is a non issue, if Britain advances on Tripoli you shorten the distance the planes need to fly over water meaning it is less needed.
That's a few potential changes that could occur that are caused by Tanks indirectly. I really don't envy you @allanpcameron, please keep writing though.

This got a little sidetracked again.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Another knock on. If the Axis are held in Libya and defeated in Crete then there's no Axis support for the Iraqi Revolt (if it still happens with Britain still looking like a winner) and so no British invasion of Syria.

 

[Schlock]

What it might do is stop the RAF from doing the pointless Rhubarb operations over occupied France and send the aircraft to the Med/North Africa instead. It would be a better return on investment than OTL, that is for sure.

 

[diesal]

One other thing that will have massive flow on effects is just the monetary and man power savings from having more capable armour. Every soldier whose life is saved because a tank is available is one who doesn’t need to be replaced, this reduction in wastage will have significant flow on effects. More experienced troops will survive which improves unit performance which means more soldiers survive etc. This will reduce the strain on the economy required to fight the war allowing more effort to be made to improve equipment provided. There will be much less wasted on pointless gear that was not required, no blacker bombards etc.

 

[MattII]

One other thing that will have massive flow on effects is just the monetary and man power savings from having more capable armour. Every soldier whose life is saved because a tank is available is one who doesn’t need to be replaced, this reduction in wastage will have significant flow on effects. More experienced troops will survive which improves unit performance which means more soldiers survive etc. This will reduce the strain on the economy required to fight the war allowing more effort to be made to improve equipment provided. There will be much less wasted on pointless gear that was not required, no blacker bombards etc.

Blacker Bombards eventually became Hedgehog, so that may be a slight detriment to the British.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The British Army still left most of their equipment in France so emergency Weapons like the Blacker Bombard were still probably designed and tested, if not actually issued.

 

[kelgar04]

The British Army still left most of their equipment in France so emergency Weapons like the Blacker Bombard were still probably designed and tested, if not actually issued.

Could mean also they put more thought into Anti tank man portable weaponry as well, the PIAT had some advantages but was a pain in the ass most of the time to use.

Not suggesting the British R&D shoot for the moon here but with pressure lessened out in Africa it will allow for a better infantry Anti tank weapon to be developed and be moved out sooner.

 

[duckie]

Could mean also they put more thought into Anti tank man portable weaponry as well, the PIAT had some advantages but was a pain in the ass most of the time to use.

Not suggesting the British R&D shoot for the moon here but with pressure lessened out east it will allow for a better infantry Anti tank weapon to be developed and be moved out sooner.

I am not so sure, if you look at the effective range on the PIAT and early models of Panzerfaust (30 of 60meters), I would prefer the PIAT because it almost had no signature when fired, where as the Panzerfaust user put up a big "Shoot Me" sign

 

[kelgar04]

I am not so sure, if you look at the effective range on the PIAT and early models of Panzerfaust (30 of 60meters), I would prefer the PIAT because it almost had no signature when fired, where as the Panzerfaust user put up a big "Shoot Me" sign

Again I just want something better than what was the PIAT it had some issues which make it less than practical to be honest its large and rather unwieldy adding to this the weapon is difficult and hard way to actually cock the weapon before the first firing which is a difficult processes from what I understand and if it fails to fire you have to re-cock the whole thing which is even harder under fire.

 

[duckie]

Only if something went wrong, normaly when fired, it would cock itself for het next round,

take a look at this video: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/piat-britains-answer-to-the-anti-tank-rifle-problem/

 

[MarcH]

Again I just want something better than what was the PIAT it had some issues which make it less than practical to be honest its large and rather unwieldy adding to this the weapon is difficult and hard way to actually cock the weapon before the first firing which is a difficult processes from what I understand and if it fails to fire you have to re-cock the whole thing which is even harder under fire.

The thing about the PIAT is it had the potential to be a lot more versatile than it was OTL. Yes the design was less than optimal but it also had some nice advantages over things like Panzerfaust's. For a start the lack of Back-blast meant you could fire from a hidden position and have it stay hidden, very useful if you miss. Secondly it meant that confined spaces were a viable place to fire from whereas other man portable AT weapons couldn't be. These points both mean crew survivability is potentially higher when using the OIAT over other weapons. The PIAT also has the ability to fire other ammunition types, things like HE and Smoke that could make the weapon far more versatile. Yes they were not developed OTL but their is no reason they could not be. If they had been developed and issued then I imagine the PIAT would have been viewed much more favourably.
It comes down to that whole time issue again. The PIAT was rushed out the door because of the pressure Britain was feeling and the need for a new Infantry AT weapon. Had the British been able to step back even slightly they could well have seen the potential in things like a HE round.

 

[Orry]

Again I just want something better than what was the PIAT it had some issues which make it less than practical to be honest its large and rather unwieldy adding to this the weapon is difficult and hard way to actually cock the weapon before the first firing which is a difficult processes from what I understand and if it fails to fire you have to re-cock the whole thing which is even harder under fire.

I believe it is a lot easier to use the PIAT as an improvised Morter

 

[diesal]

My thinking is that better armour has to save the British army roughly 5%, casualties and cash money, now compounding that over the 5 years of active combat 41-45 that will have a significant effect.

 

[duckie]

I believe it is a lot easier to use the PIAT as an improvised Morter

If you read through the comment section of the Forgotten Weapons section it is mentioned, also the use in urban combat and firering from inside buildings, bunkers etc..