Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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This does seem to be one of the problems of the British Armour regiments - they are allocated a tank that's just as fast & well armed as their previous ones but has better armour & range & is more reliable unfortunately because it's called an Infantry tank they are predisposed not to think it's suitable for use by an Armoured division.

They could always just rename the tank....

"Based on the adoption of the model in multiple combat arms, its previous name of being an infantry tank is deemed to be obsolete. The decision has therefore been made to rename the model as the British Medium Battle Tank Mark I."

Problem solved..... :cool: 🍻
 
I suspect they are. Between the stirling defences of Areas and Calais (British troops in other parts of France were under-resourced), the stunningly fast advance in North Africa, and the effective (despite being badly under-resourced) withdrawal in Greece, they are looking a lot stronger than OTL.
In practice true, But IMHO the Americans won't notice the difference

They will only see that the Limeys have been thrown out of Europe three times by the Germans, each campaign taking mere weeks

and haven't been able to deal with the Italians even though having months and months to do so
 
In practice true, But IMHO the Americans won't notice the difference

They will only see that the Limeys have been thrown out of Europe three times by the Germans, each campaign taking mere weeks

and haven't been able to deal with the Italians even though having months and months to do so
That’s an absurdly reductive, biased view, so yes, that’s likely how the Isolationists will spin it.
 
Found this (December 25th, 1941) note on the hazards of shipping tanks in WW2 from General Auchinleck (regarding two tanks which he had received in North Africa) in Churchill's memoirs:
General Auchinleck said:
...These vehicles were stowed on forward well-deck, unsheeted and unlocked. In consequence vehicles were exposed to sea-water, and when received both tanks had water on floors and showed rust markings nine inches up the walls.
Considerable damage to electrical and wireless gear, requiring fourteen days' expert attention before tanks can run. Method of dispatch and stowage most unsatisfactory. All American tanks are dispatched with all crevices and doors pasted up with masking tape...
- The Second World War, Volume III, 'Appendix L'

Apparently early WW2 British tank-shipping arrangements could be abysmal.

Edit:
Apparently (according to further material in Appendix L) there was an enquiry, which blamed it primarily on the fitters not accompanying their tanks. They had been flown out by aircraft instead so as not to waste several weeks on board a ship...
 
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This does seem to be one of the problems of the British Armour regiments - they are allocated a tank that's just as fast & well armed as their previous ones but has better armour & range & is more reliable unfortunately because it's called an Infantry tank they are predisposed not to think it's suitable for use by an Armoured division.
It's the British Army, if they're not complaining about something then things have gone badly wrong. As it is if they've just been given a new piece of kit and the only thing they're complaining about is the name so there's nothing to worry about.
 
Found this (December 25th, 1941) note on the hazards of shipping tanks in WW2 from General Auchinleck (regarding two tanks which he had received in North Africa) in Churchill's memoirs:

- The Second World War, Volume III, 'Appendix L'

Apparently early WW2 British tank-shipping arrangements could be abysmal.

Edit:
Apparently (according to further material in Appendix L) there was an enquiry, which blamed it primarily on the fitters not accompanying their tanks. They had been flown out by aircraft instead so as not to waste several weeks on board a ship...
Early war tanks such as the Crusader when shipped to North Africa needed hundreds of man hours in what was effectively a tank factory in Egypt in order to 'finish' them before they were fit to be issued to a unit

This was because UK industry due to the rapid expansion and demand on its trained manpower lacked enough Quality Control Engineers to inspect all of the tanks before they had to be shipped out before the end of 1942 and of course the British tank building industry matured around this time making the end product such as the later Crusaders, later Cromwell and later Churchill, better anyway.
 
Just catching up here, and not trying to stir the pot or anything...
But this 76.2mm gun being produced for the Finns...
Wouldn't it, um, you know, poke a hole in a tank? As-is?
Without needing lots of fiddling around to make it, I dunno, sexy?
 

marathag

Banned
This was because UK industry due to the rapid expansion and demand on its trained manpower lacked enough Quality Control Engineers to inspect all of the tanks before they had to be shipped out before the end of 1942
Shipping machinery by sea was nothing new. It was expected that getting them soaked with seawater would be bad

US in WWI, but the UK had shipped locomotives to Africa and India
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The Baldwin Locomotive Works was contracted to supply 1,500 locomotives, and after testing and acceptance these had to then be disassembled and crated for shipment, a process which took several days. Even with economies of scale, as all of the units were identical 2-8-0 engines, inevitably called ‘The General Pershing’ Class, there were serious delays in reassembling them in France. At first the average time to get a disassembled locomotive in operation after arrival was thirty-three days, but this increased due to the large number being received and the inevitable mixing-up of crates.

This problem landed in the lap of Samuel Morse Felton Jr. (1853-1930), who had been appointed the Director-General of Military Railways. He was the son of a pioneer railroad builder, an 1873 graduate of the predecessor of MIT and had spent his life in American railroading, finishing as the head of the Chicago Great Western Railroad.

It became apparent that the best solution would be to ship the locomotives fully assembled. Felton had the tonnage market searched for single deck ships with large open holds and at least four hatches of sufficient size to admit locomotives that were 35 feet 8 inches long and 9 feet wide. They found four ore-carriers of the same class, two of which were recently completed and two under construction by the Bethlehem Shipyard. These ships were:

  • the S.S. Feltore, which later ran aground in Chile in 1930,
  • the S.S. Santore, which was sunk by a mine laid by U701 on June 17th, 1942,
  • the S.S. Cubore, which was torpedoed and sunk by UB107 on August 15th, 1918, outward bound in the Bay of Biscay, and
  • the S.S. Firmore, post-war history unknown.

They found a derrick at Sparrows Point, Maryland capable of dead-lifting the 75.5 ton locomotives. The first shipment was loaded on the Feltore on April 30th, 1918.


Loading a locomotive onto the S.S. Feltore

Thirty-three locomotives and their tenders, essentially ready for steam, were placed in the hold of the Feltore, with bales of hay wedged around them to keep them from shifting. The shipment arrived at St. Nazaire without incident.

By this means, the time required in getting a locomotive in operation after its arrival in France was reduced to eight hours.

Later an improved stowage plan made it possible to load thirty-six locomotives and tenders in the holds of these four vessels, and Felton’s staff requisitioned another twelve ships capable of holding the units on their wheels, although not as many as in the ore-carriers.



You can see above, they were sealed and tarped up, even when in the hold.
 
Hm, if Malaya holds as long or longer than the Philippines, how would that effect things?
Depends on who's listening in all likelihood.
Some people will likely brush it off because Britain is already at war so ready to fight while America isn't.
Others will likely get more respect for Britain. These are the people who will already respect Britain more ITTL because of the better performance.
 
A guy I know had an after school or uni job where he helped man a facility with an acid bath, which was needed to help remove the rust from electrical equipment shipped from India to NZ for a new powerplant, as it had been shipped on deck, without much mitigation. This I believe was in the 1980s.
 
Depends on who's listening in all likelihood.
Some people will likely brush it off because Britain is already at war so ready to fight while America isn't.
Others will likely get more respect for Britain. These are the people who will already respect Britain more ITTL because of the better performance.
Britain had other battlefields to worry about, America really only had the Pacific, and managed to screw that up completely.
 
One of the big problems was lack of shipping. This meant a lot more stuff had to be carried as deck cargo, and so was subject to much worse conditions. Tanks seemed for some reason to be OK to ship on deck (even though they obviously weren't)
 
So, I take it that the Italians were completely kicked out of East Africa including all of Ethiopia here? Meaning they had the Italians out of everywhere south of Libya more than half a year earlier than OTL. Might this mean that Prince Amedeo is in better conditions than OTL and survives the war this time around?

I can definitely see the force detailed in the latest post being strong enough that the apparent parity with Germans is overwhelmed. Given the events of past campaigns, the likely end result will be a general assumption that in a battle between British and German forces in this timeline, the parity in equipment and training is such that numbers will decide the victor.
 
It's the British Army, if they're not complaining about something then things have gone badly wrong.
Being too busy to gripe about the situation is one of the true hallmarks of the Brown Stuff making contact with rotary air impellers.
"Based on the adoption of the model in multiple combat arms, its previous name of being an infantry tank is deemed to be obsolete. The decision has therefore been made to rename the model as the British Medium Battle Tank Mark I."
I like this, it seems sensible without requiring much effort on the part of the Army beyond reprinting some documents.

Any updates on Nuffield and the A22 program? I wonder if events have inspired the project managers to re-think their design and go for the shorter, faster A23 chassis and accompanying turret. It'd make a decent export model for the Russians if the Army is set on keeping the Valiant as it's primary asset, to say nothing of its suitability for Gen. Hobart's ideas for conversions.
 
Any updates on Nuffield and the A22 program? I wonder if events have inspired the project managers to re-think their design and go for the shorter, faster A23 chassis and accompanying turret. It'd make a decent export model for the Russians if the Army is set on keeping the Valiant as it's primary asset, to say nothing of its suitability for Gen. Hobart's ideas for conversions.
Something tells me the A15 isn't going to see a lot of service, and the A22 will be restricted to secondary roles, such as the Funnies.
 
I'm also pretty sceptical. The army only had just over 500 at the start of the war and lost around 300 in France. Though that could explain the source of 3 inch 20cwt the Germans used. After that pretty much all the rest of the army supplies were used up in conversion to the 16cwt gun.
Outside of that the Royal Navy had some 1000 guns in service at the start of the war, or just under. Most of those were on Submarines though older destroyers got some as well. As far as i know non were removed during the war so don't see any going to the Russians.
The 76.2 used in the assorted Marders (and some adapted as towed AT guns) were captured soviet field guns. I'm near certain that AT ammo was specially made in Germany, but don't have anything to check this with right now.
 
27 May 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
27 May 1941. Cairo, Egypt.

Lieutenant-General William Holmes had arrived in Egypt, along with the Headquarters staff of X Corps, along with the 9th (Highland) Division. Having done well with the 42nd Division in the withdrawal to Dunkirk, Holmes had been promoted and given command of X Corps, which had been responsible for the defence of the North-east of England in the event of a German invasion. General Wavell had the happy problem of troops pouring into his area of responsibility, but lacked the General Staff Officers to sort these men into proper organisations. X Corps HQ had been chosen to come to Egypt and provide another experienced leadership cadre to add to General O’Connor’s XIII Corps.

Wavell had been requesting that London concentrate on sending him drafts of troops as replacements as well as many more Signals, Medical, Supply, Workshops, and Transport units. Prime Minister Churchill had scoffed about the tail becoming much bigger than the teeth, but Wavell replied that 'I have fighting troops standing idle for lack of vehicles which my workshop and recovery organization working night and day cannot repair quickly enough. Work on essential airfields is hampered by insufficiency of engineer units, and the capture of 100,000 prisoners has thrown a severe strain on the medical and supply services...' Churchill relented and agreed to send the requested units, but also insisted on sending the 9th and then the 50th Infantry Divisions as well.

Wavell’s plan was eventually to turn what had been the old Western Desert Force into a full-blown army. When Holmes and his HQ had arrived, Wavell could envision an army with XIII and X Corps making up its constituent parts, and the possibility of the ANZACs adding a third Corps. Wavell had cabled London with this recommendation to give O’Connor command of that army, which would likely be named ‘Eighth Army’. Wavell had suggested that XIII Corps could be well run by Philip Neame, with William Holmes continuing in command of X Corps.

General ‘Jumbo’ Wilson, after his efforts in Greece, had been appointed GOC Palestine and Transjordan, and he had worries about the situation in Syria. The Free French General Georges Catroux had been pushing the story that the Vichy French had not only been supportive of the Iraq uprising, but there was growing evidence of German Luftwaffe elements on Syrian airfields. Catroux was convinced that a show of strength would have the Vichy forces capitulate and Syria would join the Free French. While the situation in Iraq was now stabilised, Wilson was convinced by Catroux that something would need to be done about Syria. Wilson had therefore asked for X Corps to be attached to his command to bring together his disparate forces into a unified force capable to invading Syria.

Wavell was once more concerned about over-reach. The end of the fighting in East Africa wasn’t far off, and Wavell had looked forward to receiving the complete 5th Indian and 1st South African Divisions to add to the forces in Egypt, but they would need time to rest and recuperate before they could be thrown back into the fray. Iraq’s coup had led to the 10th Indian Division being sent, not to Malaya as planned, but to Basra, and the efforts to turn the Cavalry Division into 10th Armoured Division had had to be postponed while they took Baghdad. Greece had taken the ANZACs, (6th and 7th Australian and 2nd New Zealand Division), along with an Armoured Brigade, to do little more than slow down the Germans. Now all these units had to be replenished, rested and re-equipped. Crete had been held, thanks to the forces there, but the Polish, New Zealand and British Brigades would likely have to stay there, at least, for the foreseeable future. Wavell now also had tens of thousands of Greeks on the ration strength, and was still trying to shift 100000 Italian Prisoners of War out of his hair.

What Wavell’s intelligence told him was that the threat of German intervention in Syria was actually remote, and that the loss of the Airborne Division in Crete would probably mean that Cyprus (and Malta) was safe too. It was clear to Wavell that Wilson believed the Free French, who were keen to do something to push General Henri Dentz, the commander-in-chief of the Vichy forces towards De Gaulle. At this point Wavell, in consultation with Chief of the Imperial General Staff, John Dill, thought the best thing was to postpone a decision about invading Syria until after Operation Battleaxe, due to begin on 7 June, had concluded. He agreed with Wilson that it would be possible to put together a force, but whether it would be strong enough was another matter. This force would include some of the Cavalry Division, possibly with much of an Australian Division and the Free French. What settled the matter for Wavell was that the RAF was far too stretched to do much to support an effort in Syria, while maintaining their crucial work over the main threat and problem in Libya.

To satisfy General Wilson, Wavell agreed to place Holmes’ X Corps HQ under the Palestine and Transjordan Command. This Corps would eventually have the 10th Armoured Division, the 5th Indian Division and the 50th Infantry Division under its control. Obviously, this would take some time for these units to arrive, complete their acclimatisation, train together and be fully worked up. For the moment, General Blamey’s ANZACs and the Free French would continue to guard the northern border with Lebanon, and regular reconnaissance would be undertaken by the RAF to make sure that the Germans were not arriving in any numbers. If General Dentz could be persuaded to throw off the shackles of the collaborationist Vichy regime by peaceful means, all the better. Having a substantial force building up on his border might make the American adage ‘speak softly, but carry a big stick’ work in this case.
 
Given how badly British and Commonwealth Forces have beaten the Axis recently aside from in Greece as well as the fact that the Allies essentially have uncontested air and naval supremacy in the Eastern Med I'm imagining that General Dentz and whoever the governor is are probably sweating bullets right now. I'm sort of surprised that there have been no covert inquires to whoever the Free French Rep is in Egypt about switching sides.
 
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