Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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It was not a knock off it was a fully paid for licence produced copy with full technical documentation and support from Vickers Armstrong including Soviet workers spending time building tanks in the UK.
It was found to be superior to all Soviet tanks then under development such as the porcine T19 and while the tank enjoyed development as the T26 with an improved turret and increased armour etc it was to all intents and purposes a Vickers 6 ton.
Designed incidentally by our Hero John Carden and his colleague Vivian Loyd - which means that the Majority of tanks then in existence at teh outbreak of WW2 were ether designed by these 2 Gentlemen or were derived from their designs.
I though the Valiants were welded not riveted or have I got my TLs confused?
Perhaps it's just an early artist's impression.
NotBigBrother
Monthly Donor
I wonder how many of them later were shot or went to GULAG as spies of British imperialists.
allanpcameron
Donor
@Claymore was very patient with me trying to describe what I was trying to do. So yes, there is a level of artist's impression of confused descriptions.
Allan
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True, but there's a difference between keeping development ticking over (and potentially working in new ideas and improvements) and pushing the design into volume production. Britain in 1941 is essentially fighting Germany solo, and has lots more demands than she has industrial resources to meet them. From the current perspective TTL, there just doesn't look to be much requirement for large numbers of tanks in then next year or two. And if you're not expecting to need new tanks until 1944, the smart thing to do is to spend 1941-2 in development work on the tank you're going to mass-produce starting 1943 for service in 1944, not churning out tanks in 1942 just to watch them become outdated before they're ever used (see OTL's Covenanter).
For example if the 17pdr is available in 1942 and there is a perceived need for extra AP performance to tackle the new German heavies, then it may be worth revising the design to mount it as standard (rendering the whole 75mm vs 3" debate entirely pointless). The Victor may yet be remembered as a low-volume intermediate design that was superseded by the Vulcan (or whatever) prior to D-Day.
It's still May 1941, and while British Intelligence and the higher levels of government certainly suspect that the Germans are about to strike against the Soviet Union, I'm not sure this has percolated down to the industrial planners. If sending tanks to the Soviets becomes a priority in 1941-2, I'd expect them to churn out Valiant IIs (which are what the factories are set up to produce now) while shipping the old Valiant Is and Matildas to Murmansk, rather than push for a new tank (particularly one that's bigger and harder to ship). And yes, they will undoubtedly be following any action reports coming out of Russia - which may feed back into design changes in new tanks under development.
Pop quiz - if the Malaya-Burma-DEI campaign goes better for the British than OTL, is that likely to lead to more British involvement on the Russian Front?
Thanks for the pictures @allanpcameron and @Claymore
That is effectively what is happening. The Victors at the moment are prototypes being used to work out the bugs, not production-line vehicles undergoing acceptance trails.
The 17-pounder isn't even finished the design process just yet, so trying to fit it to any tank would be premature. It's probably going to get fitted to the Valentine II though. as for a follow-on design, I doubt the next one will be ready by D-Day, or at least, if it is, very few will be in service by that point.
Seems like a decent solution.
Stalin was very much against direct involvement by other parties on Soviet terrain, so probably not.
except as far as I have read on one or two occasions he asked for the British to deploy forces in the South of Russia to help the Red Army out
Need to find the book - I think it was '42 but it might have been '41
I don't yet see a driver for early adoption of the 50mm L60 in tanks. In OTL, the 50mm L42 was available late 1940 and despite having faced Char B1, Somua S35 and Matildas in France, and Valentines and Matildas in the desert, the 50mm L60 tank gun wasn't introduced until well into the Soviet Union.
Better British tanks in the desert may encourage faster introduction, but for now, the 50mm L42 in tanks in partnership with L60 AT guns should be good enough against 2 pounder armed tanks. I'd expect alarm bells to go off once the 6 pounder tanks come in, since these can damage German amour when outside effective range of the short 50mm. Even then, if the PaK/tank combination is used well, the imbalance won't be overwhelming unless they are used en masse. And there'd still be time needed to retool, manufacture and issue upgraded tanks.
I should probably apologise here for risking a 50mm gun discussion to go with the 75mm ones on only my second post.
I think you're good. People don't seem to care as much about 50mm, and the generally-Anglophone population here are much more willing to tear each other to bits if there sources they can read to hurl at their opponents. See what happens if you ask about artillery, though, and especially US artillery in this time period.
You forget that, as well as having .50 Browning and .50 Vickers, that there was .55 Boys and 15mm BESA. There were also various different 4" guns, and at the upper end, (albeit a lot had been scrapped), 9.2", 12", 15" and 18" naval guns and howitzers, each using a different shell. Then there were two different British 13.5" guns, plus an export version, then there were 14" guns - British, export to Chile, export to Russia, export to Japan, import from America. There was an export 15" for Brazil that was finally retired from Spanish service in the mid 2000s... I can keep going but I'll leave it at that.
Eh, I think that there's a pretty decent chance that the Germans will switch to the long 50mm gun in their tanks earlier than IOTL; the combination of the Valiant's speed, armor, and availability is going to put greater pressure on them compared to IOTL, even before the 57mm gun is introduced. The Panzer III had the advantage of speed over the Matilda and Valentine; not so with the Valiant; it'll be much harder to gain advantages in positioning to hit the side armor or draw them into ambushes like with countering the armor of the Matilda. The Valiant Mk 1's armor is also thicker than the Valentine's; the already marginal 50mm L/42 will struggle even more comparatively.
They're probably going to begin the process of fitting the Kwk 39 to their tanks even before the introduction of the 6pdr Valiant II, though North Africa probably won't see any due to logistics/manufacturing/refitting until the time that the Valiant II shows up as well, when it'll gain much higher priority.
The Pak 40 and Kwk 40 will probably also be available earlier as a result as well, its priority increased as to be able to counter the Valiant like with what occurred with the encountering of Soviet tanks.
The Valiant II is probably going to be harder for the Germans to combat than the T-34, after all, due to early T-34s' awful ergonomics, bad battlefield awareness, and two-man turret, even discounting training/tactics.
Good point on the mobiliy. I had overloked that side. But even with a reason to bring forward the adoption of the KwK L60, can they do this? Remember they would have suffered more losses in France that need to be made up, probably captured a few less tanks (even if these were only used for training etc, they will be missed), and have to make more transport as they will have captured less. Even if only a percent or two down on OTL (and it could be more), this means the most important units in Barbarossa (panzer and motorised divisions) are a bit weaker and a bit less well supplied right from the start. Less effective encirclements, fewer panzer1s and other light tanks available for suppressing partisans could easily lead to big changes over a year or two - should be fun.
marathag
Banned
The first German tank with the KwK 40 75mm L43 was with the Panzer IV F2 and Stug III F with production started in March, 1942, a response mostly from the T-34 and KV Tanks, not the combat experience with Char B1 and Matilda II in France and North Africa.
Krupp got the green light in November 1941 to develop a tank gun, rather than using the more powerful PaK 40 AT gun, that used a very long cartridge, 714mm with a 100mm diameter rim, vs the KwK 40 with 495mm long and 111mm base
Krupp got the green light in November 1941 to develop a tank gun, rather than using the more powerful PaK 40 AT gun, that used a very long cartridge, 714mm with a 100mm diameter rim, vs the KwK 40 with 495mm long and 111mm base
Maybe in this TL they try & squeeze the PAK 40 into a tank rather than waiting for a new gun.
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