Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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I was thinking more of this, at least at first. Something that can take an Infantry Valiant, or the equivalent weight in cargo.
4 October 1940. Alexandria, Egypt.
allanpcameron
Donor
4 October 1940. Alexandria, Egypt.
While the main convoy was still a couple of weeks away, but the first three ships with reinforcements, which had left Liverpool on the night of 22/23 August arrived in Egypt. The Denbighshire, Waiotira and Duchess of Bedford, convoy AP 1, had arrived at Port Tewfik on 23 September, where the men had been unloaded. Then the Denbighshire and Waiotira sailed through the Suez Canal and arrived at Alexandria with the first part of the equipment to reinforce the Western Desert Force.
The mixed cargo included 25-pdr guns, 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft guns, 2-pdr anti-tank guns, ammunition and spares. A substantial part of the load was the spares and tools of six Light Repair Sections, the Divisional Section of the Armoured Corps Workshop, a Base Ordnance Depot and a Base Ordnance Workshop. Finally, from the bottom of the holds were unloaded five each of Valiant Mark I and I* tanks. The first of 150 of these tanks to arrive in the Middle East. Because the tanks were still new, a mixed team from Vickers and Bovington had accompanied the tanks. There had been some debate about what was the best way to transport tanks overseas.
The only recent previous experience had been shipping the 1st Armoured Division from Southampton to Cherbourg. Someone had noticed that when the tanks had been emptied of all liquids before being loaded, they were then started up and driven in the hold so they could be moved to the edges to allow the following tanks to be loaded. The problem was that the tanks radiators, being emptied in advance, meant that the engines were being run dry and in danger of overheating. While the tanks arriving in Cherbourg weren’t seriously damaged by this, it was felt that it was something that had to be taken into account. Some thought had been given to the issue, and a solution had been worked out, which was being tried out in this first opportunity.
Once the tanks had been unloaded from the hold of the ship, a train was waiting for them to be loaded, then taken to the main RASC depot in the Delta to familiarise the fitters and mechanics with the new type. This was part of the reason for the men from Vickers and Bovington accompanying the tanks. A new type of tank, especially as the Mark I had a diesel engine, and the Mark I* with its aero-engine, would be a challenge to learn how to service it properly. Among the troops unloaded from Duchess of Bedford at Port Tewfik were the men to work in the depots, workshops and supply echelon. This included the whole support echelon of 22nd Armoured Brigade, with a substantial part of 2nd Armoured Division’s, along with much of 23rd Army Tank Brigade’s. These men were all trained on the Vickers Valiant, and so they would work with the already existing support for 7th Armoured Division, while awaiting to be moved to forward positions along with the tanks in due course.
Amongst the spare parts unloaded from the freighter was a box of the new air cleaners to avoid too much dust or sand getting into the engine. Getting to work on this was part of the preparations to get the tanks ready for action. Having the first ten tanks a couple of weeks before the main convoy arrived, gave the RASC men a head-start. When the majority of the 150 tanks arrived, the men would be already trained and experienced. It was hoped that this would speed the time taken to ready the tanks for action in the desert.
The other new thing that had been shipped from Liverpool was a batch of the prototype ‘Jerry Cans’. The speed at which these had been copied and put into production was a testimony to the almost religious devotion they had engendered in the men involved in logistics for the British army. There were only five hundred of the cans unloaded, but, if they met with approval, a great deal more would be produced.
A copy of the Jerry Can and blueprints had been sent onboard a ship bound for India. It was thought that the can could easily be produced there. Since Middle East Command had to look more and more to India for supplies, it was thought sensible to try and get production of the Jerry Can set up closer to the need.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL. I've attached a couple of pictures of some of the equipment unloaded from this very interesting site. I've taken liberties because I'm not sure just exactly what was shipped out, but I'm assuming that the rear echelon stuff was shipped as well as the tanks and guns. Regarding Jerry Cans, I've no idea how long it took to go from capture to copy, but I've been using 'religious zeal' to emphasise the importance. Also presuming a level of logic and foresight which perhaps is pollyanna-esque.
While the main convoy was still a couple of weeks away, but the first three ships with reinforcements, which had left Liverpool on the night of 22/23 August arrived in Egypt. The Denbighshire, Waiotira and Duchess of Bedford, convoy AP 1, had arrived at Port Tewfik on 23 September, where the men had been unloaded. Then the Denbighshire and Waiotira sailed through the Suez Canal and arrived at Alexandria with the first part of the equipment to reinforce the Western Desert Force.
The mixed cargo included 25-pdr guns, 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft guns, 2-pdr anti-tank guns, ammunition and spares. A substantial part of the load was the spares and tools of six Light Repair Sections, the Divisional Section of the Armoured Corps Workshop, a Base Ordnance Depot and a Base Ordnance Workshop. Finally, from the bottom of the holds were unloaded five each of Valiant Mark I and I* tanks. The first of 150 of these tanks to arrive in the Middle East. Because the tanks were still new, a mixed team from Vickers and Bovington had accompanied the tanks. There had been some debate about what was the best way to transport tanks overseas.
The only recent previous experience had been shipping the 1st Armoured Division from Southampton to Cherbourg. Someone had noticed that when the tanks had been emptied of all liquids before being loaded, they were then started up and driven in the hold so they could be moved to the edges to allow the following tanks to be loaded. The problem was that the tanks radiators, being emptied in advance, meant that the engines were being run dry and in danger of overheating. While the tanks arriving in Cherbourg weren’t seriously damaged by this, it was felt that it was something that had to be taken into account. Some thought had been given to the issue, and a solution had been worked out, which was being tried out in this first opportunity.
Once the tanks had been unloaded from the hold of the ship, a train was waiting for them to be loaded, then taken to the main RASC depot in the Delta to familiarise the fitters and mechanics with the new type. This was part of the reason for the men from Vickers and Bovington accompanying the tanks. A new type of tank, especially as the Mark I had a diesel engine, and the Mark I* with its aero-engine, would be a challenge to learn how to service it properly. Among the troops unloaded from Duchess of Bedford at Port Tewfik were the men to work in the depots, workshops and supply echelon. This included the whole support echelon of 22nd Armoured Brigade, with a substantial part of 2nd Armoured Division’s, along with much of 23rd Army Tank Brigade’s. These men were all trained on the Vickers Valiant, and so they would work with the already existing support for 7th Armoured Division, while awaiting to be moved to forward positions along with the tanks in due course.
Amongst the spare parts unloaded from the freighter was a box of the new air cleaners to avoid too much dust or sand getting into the engine. Getting to work on this was part of the preparations to get the tanks ready for action. Having the first ten tanks a couple of weeks before the main convoy arrived, gave the RASC men a head-start. When the majority of the 150 tanks arrived, the men would be already trained and experienced. It was hoped that this would speed the time taken to ready the tanks for action in the desert.
The other new thing that had been shipped from Liverpool was a batch of the prototype ‘Jerry Cans’. The speed at which these had been copied and put into production was a testimony to the almost religious devotion they had engendered in the men involved in logistics for the British army. There were only five hundred of the cans unloaded, but, if they met with approval, a great deal more would be produced.
A copy of the Jerry Can and blueprints had been sent onboard a ship bound for India. It was thought that the can could easily be produced there. Since Middle East Command had to look more and more to India for supplies, it was thought sensible to try and get production of the Jerry Can set up closer to the need.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL. I've attached a couple of pictures of some of the equipment unloaded from this very interesting site. I've taken liberties because I'm not sure just exactly what was shipped out, but I'm assuming that the rear echelon stuff was shipped as well as the tanks and guns. Regarding Jerry Cans, I've no idea how long it took to go from capture to copy, but I've been using 'religious zeal' to emphasise the importance. Also presuming a level of logic and foresight which perhaps is pollyanna-esque.
@allanpcameron - excellent choice for installing the (HV prefrerably) 2pdr pom-pom on a tracked chassis. Real shame it was not done in OTL.
I agree that small coasters arent a silver bullet, but the Compass logistics were very tight, a small improvement helps a lot.
Unloading 700-900 tons a day doesn't seem much, but it would supply 2-3 divisions out of combat (about 1 in combat, shells are heavy)
But that likely replaces a LOT of trucks.
Improving the ports is only an issue if Compass is won, until then my feeling is that extra tonnage makes a big difference.
Unloading 700-900 tons a day doesn't seem much, but it would supply 2-3 divisions out of combat (about 1 in combat, shells are heavy)
But that likely replaces a LOT of trucks.
Improving the ports is only an issue if Compass is won, until then my feeling is that extra tonnage makes a big difference.
I see your picture missed out the supply officer hitting his head against one of the tanks at the thought of having to support all that different kit? 
allanpcameron
Donor
Extraordinary isn't it! It kind of supports the theory that WW2 was an ASB timeline! If we wrote a timeline about a situation where the British had such a variety of poor tanks there'd be an uproar of Britscrew!I see your picture missed out the supply officer hitting his head against one of the tanks at the thought of having to support all that different kit?
This time its just two variants of the one tank, not five different tanks altogether.
Derek Pullem
Donor
IOTL it took two years to convince the Army that "jerrycans" were a better solution (after captured German cans became ubiquitous in the Western Desert) and then 6 months to produce 2 million of the blighters
Wonder if it went faster because they had one of their own punching them in the face with how much better they are also the fact the BEF did better this time around in France is also a major plus so there is less panic.
allanpcameron
Donor
Six months to produce 2 million is some achievement, over 10000 per day! I thought there was some local manufacture in Egypt before they went viral.
Allan
Wouldn't be surprised if it were in local production without the higher-ups of the General Staff approving of it per say squaddies are highly inventive heck that was the case in the last war with the Ross Rifle they only kept them if a high ranking officer were coming to look at them when they left they would go back in the cubby hole and take up a Lee-Enfield or other rifle they got from various sources,
Thing is, they’re designed to be cheap and easy to mass produce. It’s a very good idea to get the specs over to India, they’ll be able to crank them out like nobody’s business.
Hmm, wonder if someone has the idea to stuff them (empty) into any void spaces on merchant ships to increase subdivision in case of torpedo hits? Would take ages to haul them all out again though.
You could always tie them together in batches. Makes hauling them out easier and shouldn't affect flotation
marathag
Banned
Postwar, Disney had Donald Duck raise a sunken ship by filling it with Ping Pong balls.
Later found to be a valid recovery method, but with slightly fancier foam balls
Just a personal thanks for the continued discussion on ports and logistics.
If I could possibly ask for one additional layer of depth to be added: "What are the supply requirements per day of the different types of divisions? Infantry vs Motorized Infantry vs Mechanized Infantry vs Armoured? "
I'm just looking at the provided port capacities and wondering about maximum number of divisions supportable, and of what types for both sides (in Egyptian-Libyan Theatre of Operations)?
If I could possibly ask for one additional layer of depth to be added: "What are the supply requirements per day of the different types of divisions? Infantry vs Motorized Infantry vs Mechanized Infantry vs Armoured? "
I'm just looking at the provided port capacities and wondering about maximum number of divisions supportable, and of what types for both sides (in Egyptian-Libyan Theatre of Operations)?
I'd recommend against storing anything in a void space ever those places are highly dangerous and would need to be vented out before you could even entre them you'd need to set up blowers and I don't know how they tested the 02 content of those compartments but I'm not sure they did.
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