No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)

Problem is that Russia doesn't want such entanglement with Augustus, they could have had even more prestigious marriage i proposed to Augustus son but it was refused on the same ground and while Danish King did set a precedent thing is that Denmark was in quite different situation than Russia is. Heir appears to be healthy and they can wait.

Personally Wilhelmine of Prussia married to Peter is a go, they are of similar age and that means that baby making process can start soon. Regarding Federick II, i can him marrying future Swedish Princess being more advantageous to Federick I and it plays well into ties with Blastic Mafia without to big of reliance on Russia as I agree that double marriage is a little to much.

Is there a Swedish princess available? 😂 Of course, if she is then this match is to everybody’s benefit but I did not have time to deal with the family of Charles XII. OK, here is a deal: you guys are coming with a detailed set of the kids within the Mafia family and then we are going to arrange for their future. 😉

Natalya is going to be a problem because neither Austrian nor French marriage is serving the goals of the Russian-Swedish politics and Britain is also not realistic. Which probably leaves Charles Frederick, Grand Duke of Gottorp (in OTL married to Anna Petrovna). This should make both families very happy while providing the whole region with the Mafia coverage (PLC is the intended exception allowing Mafia a complete freedom of action).


Now that leaves good ol Natalia without a match though, i wanted French King but it proved to be not so advantageous.
Personally if there isn't some prominent marriage to be had i believe Natalia will marry within Russia as Russian princesses didn't tend to marry outside without big reason.
 
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Continue with the same thread. It is good this way.

Is there a Swedish princess available? 😂 Of course, if she is then this match is to everybody’s benefit but I did not have time to deal with the family of Charles XII. OK, here is a deal: you guys are coming with a detailed set of the kids within the Mafia family and then we are going to arrange for their future. 😉

Natalya is going to be a problem because neither Austrian nor French marriage is serving the goals of the Russian-Swedish politics and Britain is also not realistic. Which probably leaves Charles Frederick, Grand Duke of Gottorp (in OTL married to Anna Petrovna). This should make both families very happy while providing the whole region with the Mafia coverage (PLC is the intended exception allowing Mafia a complete freedom of action).

Personally i was more or less okay with marriage within Russia as a side note, though if there are no religious problems in Russia regarding the marriage then double is fine as well as it achieves the goal of marriage to Sweden indirectly via Russian imperial family without the need to keep Federick II waiting when there is a princess with high pedigree there .

Otherwise I'm fine with mostly focusing on Russian marriages, emperor more specifically, Gottorp are fine as well but they are already practically in the family with Charles being everyone's favorite Nephew.

I was mostly opposed to Wettin marriage. Aka, no extra work for me🙃 because that would mean Federick II to anonymous Swedish princess.
 
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Continue with the same thread. It is good this way.



Personally i was more or less okay with marriage within Russia as a side note, though if there are no religious problems in Russia regarding the marriage then double is fine as well as it achieves the goal of marriage to Sweden indirectly via Russian imperial family without the need to keep Federick II waiting when there is a princess with high pedigree there .

Otherwise I'm fine with mostly focusing on Russian marriages, emperor more specifically, Gottorp are fine as well but they are already practically in the family with Charles being everyone's favorite Nephew.

I was mostly opposed to Wettin marriage. Aka, no extra work for me🙃 because that would mean Federick II to anonymous Swedish princess.
Hey, don’t try to get yourself off the hook: you and @Valena are quite knowledgeable in the matrimonial and who-is-who-to-whom subjects and these are (among many other) areas which are absolutely not mine cap of a tea (I keep forgetting when the children that I mentioned had been born) so it would be really nice if somebody helps me with inventing the Swedish, Danish and Mecklenburgian children, preferably with the dates of birth and the names allowing, in the cases of the males, to have the kings with the names as closed to those of the OTL as possible (only the names are important). 😜

As of now, I have enough problems with figuring out the events of Alexey’s reign. 😢
 
As of now, I have enough problems with figuring out the events of Alexey’s reign. 😢

Well one thing is certain and that is that he needs to get those Kazakh Zuzs to close up the map . On short term civil war in Tibet (1727-28) is coming up so a deal with Qing regarding territorial dispute might be in sight.

(I keep forgetting when the children that I mentioned had been born)

Indeed you forgot Alexsei's second daughter Catherine (born 1713 after BFW) and there truly exists anonymous Swedish princess because Charles was on a way to become father in 1713 as well . So we'll just decide that the child is a girl and name her Urlike after her grandmother . Given that it's 1726 little Urlike would be around 13 years of age and now we have Swedish princess, let's say they had son in 1715 and name him Charles XIII .
 
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Indeed you forgot Alexsei's second daughter Catherine (born 1713 after BFW) and there truly exists anonymous Swedish princess because Charles was on a way to become father in 1713 as well . So we'll just decide that the child is a girl and name her Urlike after her grandmother . Given that it's 1726 little Urlike would be around 13 years of age and now we have Swedish princess, let's say they had son in 1715 and name him Charles XIII .
Re. Denmark, I doubt the name Praxedes becomes household name, but similarlry sounding Eve may.
So, Eve b. 1721 and Frederick born 1724 (an ATL & healthy version of Praskovia's OTL son from morganatic marriage).
The court news (for those interested in the royal lines, marriages, etc. 😜)
  • After giving a birth to a healthy daughter named Elizabeth, Empress Maria had to more babies, each of whom died within a month.
  • Alexey and Elena did not have more children leaving, so far, a single male succession line.
  • Charles XII got a heir named Frederick
  • Peter started considering matrimonial plans regarding his grandchildren.
  • There were rumors regarding Peter paying too much of an attention to one of his wife’s ladies in waiting, Maria Rumyantseva.
A Frederick was born in 1719.

So we have - for Sweden - 1713, 1715 and 1719 pregnancies, first two may be girls (Ulrika & Catherine)
For Mecklenburg, me thinks a couple of pregnancies is possible in late 1710ies- early 1720ies, or we can just copypaste Biron's children that were rumored Anna's bastard (as much as I think the rumor is baseless).
This gives us a Karl Peter born a year after wedding, daughter called Catherine b. 1723 and son called Johan Frederick b. 1727

For Denmark, same situation as Sweden - girls first, no surviving boy until 1724 (a copy of bad luck of Praskovia's mother with first two children dying in infancy). Probably prompting the before-mentioned Prince Karl of Denmark to marry his royal nephew's OTL wife and provide a backup.
 
drawing-5.svg

Well here is map of Europe and Asia after Peters death. Also i used Argun River as natural border for Russo-Qing border but i can fix it if im wrong. (Didnt go in a lot of details in Germany, for that we have one of the past maps as reference).
 
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Will be much obliged. As of now, before putting the names and dates anywhere, I have find them first. 😢
Threw some ideas in in the post above.

And throw my vote in "should continue" box. The second non-Tudor TL in the Turtledove voting deserves as much recognition as it gets.
 
Well one thing is certain and that is that he needs to get those Kazakh Zuzs to close up the map .

This is going to be a prolonged process, even if it is shorter than in OTL because the Dzungars are now Russian vassals which results in the earlier formal submission pf the Middle and Great Zhuzes. But a system of the effective incorporation was gradual and could take a generation or more. The process started with choosing a pro-Russian candidate for Khan’s position and gradually increasing the Russian influence until there is a convenient opening, the best case scenario was a succession crisis (in an absence of the succession laws, death of a khan more often then not was producing one). Then, if the Russian position was already strong enough, an abolishment of a khanate followed. If not, the most suitable candidate was backed while the administrative and military Russian presence kept increasing.


On short term civil war in Tibet (1727-28) is coming up so a deal with Qing regarding territorial dispute might be in sight.

Dzungars out of Tibet was a part of the Russian-Dzungar deal intended to keep the Qing reasonably happy.

However, there is no formal acceptance of the whole deal by the Qing which means that, while the current emperor has other priorities, his successor (who was seemingly more bellicose, all the way to an attempt to conquer Vietnam) may try to invade the Dzungar territories. But this conflict is decades away.
Indeed you forgot Alexsei's second daughter Catherine (born 1713 after BFW) and there truly exists anonymous Swedish princess because Charles was on a way to become father in 1713 as well . So we'll just decide that the child is a girl and name her Urlike after her grandmother . Given that it's 1726 little Urlike would be around 13 years of age and now we have Swedish princess, let's say they had son in 1715 and name him Charles XIII .
That’s fine even if it breaks the OTL names pattern (I’m not sure that “Frederick” would be a realistic name for the Swedish-born king). Maybe Charles-Frederick? @von Adler ?

As a side issue, how well would the Swedish landed nobility doing financially during a prolonged peace? As I understand, they are not seriously benefitting from the Baltic trade and there are not enough the state positions to satisfy them all. Would there be a “party” (not sure if Charles would tolerate any political party) preaching a more aggressive policies, all the way to damaging the Baltic Mafia?
 
Threw some ideas in in the post above.

And throw my vote in "should continue" box. The second non-Tudor TL in the Turtledove voting deserves as much recognition as it gets.
Thanks. But competition with the Britain-related subjects is pretty much hopeless. 😉
 
Thanks. But competition with the Britain-related subjects is pretty much hopeless. 😉
I helped to co-write Eastern Europe parts of Albion Rising (even up to writing one chapter myself when I felt it was too much клюква in there), so I kinda sorta in production team.
Tudor stuff OTOH needs to be sidelined by at least something.

Or Tudor TLs should be given their own POD cathegory.
 
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That’s fine even if it breaks the OTL names pattern (I’m not sure that “Frederick” would be a realistic name for the Swedish-born king). Maybe Charles-Frederick? @von Adler ?

As a side issue, how well would the Swedish landed nobility doing financially during a prolonged peace? As I understand, they are not seriously benefitting from the Baltic trade and there are not enough the state positions to satisfy them all. Would there be a “party” (not sure if Charles would tolerate any political party) preaching a more aggressive policies, all the way to damaging the Baltic Mafia?

With the frequent marriage ties to northern Germany, Adolph and Frederick might very well make an entrance sooner or later. But Karl and Gustav are more likely.

The landed nobility did quite well with peace - their tenants were safe and productive and provided money and/or labour and they themselves would often produce cash crops to sell abroad on their estates - hemp, charcoal, tar, grain, rapeseed, linen, wool and so on. The Swedish landed nobility were never shy of building proto-industrial businesses ("bruk") on their estates - from watermills to grind grain to brick laying enterprises to mining and iron smelting, often using the labour owed by their tenants for it. Since landed nobility's tenants were not extempt from conscription the way allotted free-holding peasants were, they could possibly suffer in war, losing decent chunks of their labour. So I would argue against them not profiting from the Baltic Mafia situation - it will give them safe and stable markets for the cash crops or goods they produce and keep them happy.

It was the low-landed or landless nobility that did less well with peace. The Swedish crown had a long tradition of diluting the nobility as a class and as a political factor in the estates parliament by ennobling deserving and competent individual in state/crown service - since some positions were reserved for the nobility, it was an easy way to get a competent person you wanted to promote into that position - ennoble them. This also created a class of landless or low-land nobility dependent on the crown/state and thus loyal to the monarch, as opposed to large parts of the landed nobility, who had their own ideas and priorities (as we know from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).

The class of landless or low-land nobility could not afford the lifestyle expected from the nobility on their own and were dependent on crown/state positions - they would be employed as officers, civil servants, diplomats and be dependent on that income. OTL, this policy came back to bite Sweden in the arse during the liberty era 1718-1772, since this class more or less seized power and widespread and endemic corruption was the result when they were both dependent on state income and controlled the state. However, with strong royal supervision still in place, this won't be the case. And while I agree that Karl XII won't allow parties to form like they did during the liberty era, there will be interest groups - and landless nobility seeing war as a chance to improve their position socially and economically (through plunder) will be a strong group.

OTL Karl X Gustav relied quite heavily on this group to stabilise his early rule as Kristina abdicated, as he could promise them war and plunder. However, Karl XII should have a very strong grip on the reins of the state, and I doubt this group could ever get strong enough to actually force him to adopt a more aggressive foreign policy.

However, since Sweden should be in a MUCH better position economically, sponsoring foreign tours like was done OTL but at a very small case should be possible. Basically, young and promising officers are granted a stipend and leave to go join another army and serve it and study the latest developments of war to return and bring that experience with them and gain a decently senior position in the army.

This combined with the expanded bureaucracy that is bound to exist due to increased investment in infrastructure and so on should provide a decent outlet for this class of landless or low-land nobility, IMHO.

One can note that this class never proved problematic for Karl XII's father Karl XI, despite him keeping Sweden at peace between 1679 and 1697. They are only really a problem in the absence of a strong monarch at the top to keep them in line.
 
On this I can’t give a coherent answer: know too little on the subject. But the list of the Swedish ships available in 1700 does contain the ships built in the mid XVII so probably they were reasonably OK technologically.

But the whole part-time system raises some questions about the crews and their preparedness. In the full-time navies even when the ships were staying in their bases the permanent crews had been doing at least some routine exercises and developing some team-based skills. The part-time sailors had been raised, as I understand, on availability/need basis, did not form permanent crews and weren’t trained as such. At least in theory, this should negatively impact their performance.


Exactly. With typhus and other diseases being a problem even with the almost vegan diet, can you imagine a damage which consumption of meat could be causing? 😂

Sorry to reply to this as late as I do, but I think there is a misunderstanding. Swedish part-time sailors were assigned to specific ships just like the part-time army was assigned to specific units. They would fit the ship and sail her for a 2-4 months every year in peacetime (and ~8-9 months per year in wartime). They did form permanent crews and were trained as such, just not as much as permanent navies.
 
Still in Asia
82. Still in Asia…
It is impossible [in the Central Asia] to go ahead in a passionate impulse - this path will not lead to the goal here. You need to move forward slowly, patiently and faithfully, be always ready to deal with new and new difficulties.”
Ivan Efremov
«Ходы прямые роет упрямый глупый крот; нормальные герои всегда идут в обход»
song from an old movie [1]
«На дурака не нужен нож, ему с три короба наврешь, и делай с ним что хош»
song from another old movie[2]
The last deed of the Peter’s reign, acceptance of Dzungar submission as a Russian vassal, was committed and now it was up to a new ruler to deal with its immediate and long-term consequences. Below is a map of the 1710s showing the Dzungar Khanate [3]
1647109787299.jpeg

And this is OTL regional map (“China” on the right is Dzungar Khanate IITL) to get a better idea of a broader regional situation.

1647110148785.jpeg

So here are the main “issues” and opportunities:
  • Acknowledgement of a vassal status by the Dzungars was fine but a lot of work will be needed for developing this formal acknowledgement into the effective Russian control of the Khanate. The schema, for achieving that goal was already in action in the Kalmyk Khanate and in the Junior Zhuz but this was a long-term and not a straightforward process starting with the “domestication” of the local ruling class, gradual increase of the Russian presence (including construction of the fortifications), establishment of a pro-Russian ruler and, eventually, after his death, replacing the local rule with the Russian administration while leaving, for a while, a considerable power in the hands of the tribal leaders. Rushing the process, as happened with the Bashkirs, could led to the uprisings. Of course, crushing these revolts was accelerating the process but it was also consuming the resources because the unhappy regions needed a permanent military presence and fleecing the unhappy “natives” was less productive then the happy ones. So, the first thing needed was strengthening the pro-Russian sentiments of the current Dzungar ruler and making sure that his successor is going to be even more loyal. He was already on his way to Moscow and the intention was to give him a very good reception.
  • The whole schema so far did not trigger any objections from the Qing but it was not officially acknowledged either, leaving the present Emperor or his successor with a free hand if he decides to attack the Dzungar Khanate, which, taking into an account the traditional Chinese imperial claims, was a distinct possibility. Which meant that Russian government will have to strengthen its defenses by building a new fortified line on the Dzungar-Chinese border to keep the Dzungars in (thus preventing the provocations against China) and Qing out. A vital part if the schema was a need to keep the Dzungar military force strong enough to be useful both for defense against China and for contributing to the Russian plans regarding the CA khanates while maintaining that strength below the level which may make a Khong Tayiji too independent.
  • The agreement made the Great and Middle Kazakh Zhuzes pretty much surrounded on the West (Junior Zhuz), North (Russia) and East (Dzungars) which made their acceptance of the Russian rule a matter of a very short time (“work” on their nobility was already going on and a formal application was expected to be a matter of few months, with an alternative being the Russian-Dzungar invasion). The problem was in a separation of these two Zhuzes from the Dzungars who considered them their tributaries (with the resulting Kazakh resistance). As the first step, this status was going to be preserved but under the Russian supervision to prevent the excesses and stop the fighting. A separating line of the forts has to be created, the yasak (tribute) was going to be collected by the Russian authorities and a part of it given to the Dzungars.
  • As soon as the remaining two Zhuzes will submit, the next step was going to be a two-prong attack on Kokand and Bukhara. Khiva was of a lower priority both logistically and economically but Bukhara, ruled by Astrakhanids, was too rich to let it to remain independent and a newly-created (in 1709) Khanate of Kokand, besides other considerations (like controlling the fertile Fergana Valley), was vital for a secure control of Bukhara.

All of the above required a continually increasing Russian presence in the region stretching from the Yaik River and all the way to the East of the Baykal Lake. Which, in turn, required a limited distraction by the European affairs, especially by those outside of the Baltic region. OTOH, an ability to dedicate more resources to the East required a greater positive balance of the Russian exports to the Western trade partners and growth of the domestic manufacturing, especially in the areas which may be relevant for maintaining the Eastward move, which meant production of a wide nomenclature of items from the weapons and all the way to the things used in the CA barter trade (fabrics, household utensils, grains, etc.).

The experience already demonstrated that for the increasing profitability of the western trade at least some part of it has to be conducted by the Russian merchants all the way to the ports of a destination even if this was not exactly a British or Dutch idea of a happy life. Which, in turn, meant that, besides encouragement of the Russian naval trade, the Empire has to spend considerable amounts of money on maintaining a meaningful navy, which, in conjunction with the Danish and Swedish fleets, can prevent the Brits from being excessively pushy.

In other words, Alexey had to run in more than one direction simultaneously. One of the first steps taken was to change the existing relations with Britain. By the Navigation Act of 1660 goods from Russia and specially named goods from Europe (enumerated articles), such as firewood, salt, tobacco, potash, olive oil, flax, bread, sugar, wine, vinegar, etc., can be imported only to England and only on English ships.

This provision now became unacceptable because it was preventing development of the Russian own maritime trade, hurting the Danish and Swedish trade interests, and because nomenclature of the Russian exports dramatically changed since 1660. Of course, the Brits were not eager to make the changes but, OTOH, the Baltic Mafia pretty much monopolized exports of the strategic materials and this made the British position rather difficult. A squadron dispatched to the Baltic Sea with the usual intimidation mission did not risk to force its way through the Straits with the Swedish-Danish-Russian squadron positioned behind the Sound and the government of Hanover had been informed that in the case of a British hostile action the Electorate is going to be considered a legitimate target for the invasion, which forced newly-crowned George II to cool down his bellicosity and to start advocating a more accommodating approach to the issue. Then, there was a serious possibility that the desired items are going to be sold to the Dutch thus hitting the British dominance in a naval trade. A negotiation followed ending in 1728 with a modification of the Act of 1660: the item regarding the Russian goods was removed as well as the list of enumerated items; they were permitted if carried by the ships of a country where they had been produced or, to accommodate the Baltic Alliance, the ships of the nations with which country of origin is in a common trade alliance. As a compensation, Russia agreed to review some items of the protectionist tariff established by Peter in 1724.

Tariff of 1724:
Goods that were manufactured in Russia in sufficient quantities were subject to a duty of 75%. Among them were tablecloths, napkins, canvas, silk brocade, taffeta, ribbons, caps, peeled wax, starch, potash, sulfate, turpentine oil, iron "not in products", needles, parchment and others.

A patronage fee of 50% of the price was imposed on Dutch canvases, velvet, drawn and spinned silver, cards, silk brocade.


Moderately - patronage fee of 25% - on all woolen fabrics, except for cloths, semi-silk fabrics, bike, made leather, stockings, fringe, mittens, paper goods, iron weapons, glass bottles.

The taxation of other goods was for fiscal purposes: 20% duty was levied on the finished women's dress, mirrors, toys; on porcelain, faience, copper and tin dishes - 10%.

Precious metal products, garden seeds, animals, except horses, many building materials, some food products were allowed for
duty-free import: oranges, lemons, oysters, etc.

Goods that were not produced in Russia were completely exempt from import duty: silk goods, various varieties of kitties, wallpaper, mathematical and surgical instruments, glasses, etc.

The export duty was left in the same amount - 3% of the price. Only some Russian goods, such as not processed moose, deer, saiga and goat leather, linen yarn, badyan, under the pretext of their use as raw materials in Russian factories and manufactories, were essentially subject to a prohibitive 75% duty or prohibited for export.



The top bracket was lowered from 75 to 50%. Russia already became exporter of the iron and was producing enough of the needles not to fear competition of the imports. Potash was a tricky issue because on one hand a lot of it had been produced domestically while OTOH, Peter I established a monopoly on the production of potash in 1721 to prevent a deforestation: "Nowhere to do or sell potash to anyone on pain of exiles to eternal hard labor" - in order to save the forest, as he introduced the technology for the production of potash from "bad barrels, kets and other scraps". So there was no logical reason for not importing a foreign potash, which would be most probably more expensive (with the tax and transportation cost) than a domestic one. More or less the same applied to the rest of the category.

In the 25% bracket the woolen fabrics and paper goods were taxed at 20%.

As a separate agreement, the Russian officers were permitted to serve in the British Navy and Russia got an official permission to hire the British sailors of all ranks providing that they are not in an active service and that their contract explicitly excludes an obligation to serve against the Britain in the case of war.

Taking into an account that by this time the Franco-British alliance already was losing its popularity on both sides of the Channel, Russia, in a secret item of an agreement, promised not to make a military alliance with France in the next 10 years (which it was not planning to do, anyway).

There was one domestic development, which initially looked unimportant but actually had the fundamental impact upon the further development. A traditional reward system of giving a person estate with the serfs (out of the state-owned pool) changed to the “arenda” system under which a beneficiary was getting, for a certain number of years, a profit (income minus the expenses including taxes) from a state-owned and state-run estate. This could come either in a form of a fixed income or in a form of an income from a specific estate but in both cases a beneficiary did not own the estate and the state retained ownership of its peasants. As a result, a pool of the serfs was not growing and a number of the “state peasants” was not shrinking.

A person could be awarded a land out of the “empty lands” pool and either move his own serfs into it or to allow the free peasants to rent it but purchasing of the serfs without a land was forbidden.

This had little to do with a charity or not yet existing “emancipation” ideas: (a) a state peasant had been paying a higher head tax than a serf (who had also to pay his owner in money, goods or labor), (b) it was easier to get the state peasants for various duties, like maintaining the roads or military service, because an intermediary, the estate owner, was absent [4].





____________
[1] “the stubborn stupid mole digs straight tunnels; normal heroes always go around”.
[2] “you don’t need a knife for a fool, you’ll lie to him and then do with him whatever you like.”
[3] In OTL it was composed by a Swedish officer who, with many others, ended up on the Russian service in Siberia after being captured at Poltava.
[4] And in the case of a military service estate owner was tempted to provide the worst serfs in the terms of health and character.
 
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