I'd spotted cortz#9's drawing on the AFV thread but it hadn't registered it was under development ITTL.
Just make the turret a bit bigger to fit a 5.9" naval gun and add destiny, willpower, etc etc....
 
As I say it will be a modest boost to the effectiveness of the Panzers over the long run, and you are right it doesn't fix the basic logistical constraints and better protected, better armed tanks is going to mean fewer tanks. So its a trade off the tanks the Heer has might survive longer, which might offset the somewhat smaller numbers.
Isn't having to support fewer tanks a potential 'win' for the logistics, maybe? (Unless they have higher logistics demands, I guess...)
 
Isn't having to support fewer tanks a potential 'win' for the logistics, maybe? (Unless they have higher logistics demands, I guess...)
These are German tanks, Tigers were awful on reliability and fuel usage , Panther was not much better when deployed originally. Of course they will also make a million silly versions delaying service entry as they chase the perfect tank ( overengineered , stupid sized gun , too heavy to cross most bridges etc )
 
These are German tanks, Tigers were awful on reliability and fuel usage , Panther was not much better when deployed originally. Of course they will also make a million silly versions delaying service entry as they chase the perfect tank ( overengineered , stupid sized gun , too heavy to cross most bridges etc )
Indeed. Something the Germans never seemed to be able to grasp was that the 'Perfect' Tank is, in fact, 'A decent, preferably good Tank in sufficient quantity'.
 

Garrison

Donor
Isn't having to support fewer tanks a potential 'win' for the logistics, maybe? (Unless they have higher logistics demands, I guess...)
Indeed. Something the Germans never seemed to be able to grasp was that the 'Perfect' Tank is, in fact, 'A decent, preferably good Tank in sufficient quantity'.
These are German tanks, Tigers were awful on reliability and fuel usage , Panther was not much better when deployed originally. Of course they will also make a million silly versions delaying service entry as they chase the perfect tank ( overengineered , stupid sized gun , too heavy to cross most bridges etc )
The logistics are a bit of a wash. There may be a small number of tanks, though that depends on the whims of resource priority in the Reich. They will though use more fuel as they are heavier and having to supply 50mm and 75mm AP ammunition in addition to the other tank ammo from OTL will make things more complicated, especially once autumn arrives.
The Germans are of course going to insist on continually pursuing the next big thing with their tanks, looking for something that can overcome their numerical inferiority. A full optimized Pz IV would be about the best option for the Wehrmacht, but it would not be able to stop them being buried under the weight of T-34s, Shermans, and ITTL A24 Churchill and A27 Centaurs.
 
Tigers were awful on reliability and fuel usage

Tiger was a good tank, badly used. Low fuel economy was an inevitable consequence of the firepower and protection it carried, and poor reliability was an inevitable consequence of of being used continuously after it had been designed as a breakthrough tank, with the intention of sending a unit to a given sector to lead the assault, and then withdraw it for rest and refit.

Panther, of course, was another matter entirely.
 
If anything the Germans were building too many tanks, neglecting sufficient amounts of spare parts. You can carry several sets of tank parts in the space taken by a single tank. They might actually get more tanks into the field than if they were just building complete tanks.
 
Tiger was a good tank, badly used. Low fuel economy was an inevitable consequence of the firepower and protection it carried, and poor reliability was an inevitable consequence of of being used continuously after it had been designed as a breakthrough tank, with the intention of sending a unit to a given sector to lead the assault, and then withdraw it for rest and refit.

Panther, of course, was another matter entirely.
Disagree on the Tiger , it was too heavy which limited where it could go and cost too much in time/resources vs more Pz IV's. The suspension was a mess if mud/snow was involved and the reliability issues were mainly due to it being over design weight.
 
1st September – 4th December 1941 – East Africa – The End in Ethiopia

Garrison

Donor
1st September – 4th December 1941 – East Africa – The End in Ethiopia

The shift in priorities for supplies and reinforcements caused by the demands of supporting Crete and the offensive in Libya certainly didn’t make life easier for General’s Platt and Cunningham, commanding the forces attacking into Ethiopia from Sudan and Kenya respectively, their position was though still substantially better than that of Duke Aosta and his troops. The flow of materiel to the Italian forces in Ethiopia had been effectively blockaded even before the seizure of Massawa, while access to the port greatly assisted the British in delivering supplies and troops being sent to the theatre. The advancing British forces had taken Addis Ababa on the 6th of April, with Emperor Haile Selassie triumphantly entering the city a few days later. This made for wonderful propaganda, however within a few months fault lines would open up among various factions in Ethiopia who had had largely been united by the desire to see the Italians kicked. They did not intend to become a British colony, and many were not happy about the return of Haile Selassie to the throne. This does not even touch on the thorny issue of the future status of Eritrea [1].

As the year wore on the vagaries of the weather in East Africa proved almost as much of an impediment to British advances as Italian resistance, though the latter should not be underestimated. By the summer pro-Italian partisans were making their presence felt in Italian Somaliland. They managed to cause some grief for the British forces, and only finally abandoned their guerrilla warfare in 1943. Overall though these actions had little impact on the military situation in Ethiopia [2].

For Duke Aosta the situation Libya during July and August may have absorbed most of the attention of the British and delayed their final assault in Ethiopia. At the same time the crumbling defence in North Africa meant that whatever hopes he might have had that his forces would be rescued by a victory in Egypt had vanished and he was thrown back on his own dwindling resources. The responses to his increasingly desperate requests for supplies and reinforcements brought nothing but promises that if his troops just held on relief would come, soon. How this would have achieved with the Regia Marina bottled up in the Mediterranean and no possibility of any merchant shipping reaching Ethiopia is an excellent question. The British were naturally only too happy to broadcast their successes in the Middle East to undermine Italian morale, trumpeting the victories at Tobruk, Benghazi, etc. for all they were worth, with the RAF unhappily pressed into service dropping leaflets [3].

Even without the propaganda effort few Italian soldiers could have doubted how dire their predicament was. Italian morale declined sharply but it didn’t completely collapse, in places dug in Italian troops still put up a bitter fight against the inevitable. Aosta’s problem was that these strongpoints faced almost inevitable defeat once British forces cut their lines of communications and the British didn’t need to get bogged down trying to overrun them when they could be left to ‘wither on the vine’. Without any hope of breaking out or being relieved these troops were lost to Aosta and as painful as the casualties they inflicted might have been the British kept pressing forward.

By November the Italian defenders had been compressed into a few small pockets and once Gondar was surrounded Aosta had no choice, the Italian forces in East Africa surrendered on the 27th of November 1941. For the British this was another significant victory. The Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea approaches to the Suez Canal were now completely secure and free to be used to move supplies to Egypt, including supplies from the USA as they had officially declared the route no longer a warzone.

For the Italians the entire campaign had been ill conceived. Their position in East Africa was a weak one. If they had executed their original plan, they might well have taken British Somaliland, which would still have left them extremely vulnerable to counterattacks from the British as the Italian forces lacked to means to mount major offensives into Sudan or Kenya [4]. The British in East Africa were relatively strong and once they got organized the Italian effort had little hope of success, which became something of a recurring theme in Italian operations. The entire campaign seems to have been based on the gamble of achieving a quick victory in anticipation of Britain being forced to make peace. With the British choosing to fight on and events elsewhere going poorly for the Italians the fate of Duke Aosta and his men was all but inevitable. As for Ethiopia the British made lavish promises about the future of the country, and they did do their best to deliver on those post war, even when faced with competing visions over the shape of the country from the Ethiopians themselves [5].

[1] It’s not going to be all sunshine even with the defeat of the Italians.

[2] This is as per OTL, the pro-Italian partisans held out for a remarkably long time given their lack of external support.

[3] Obviously the timing was different OTL, here though the British have the opportunity to trumpet their successes.

[4] Which is of course what happened OTL, the whole venture was ill conceived and followed much the same pattern as Egypt, a relatively weak initial offensive soon brought to a halt and rapidly reversed.

[5] Ethiopia is the first major piece of territory liberated by the British in the war and they feel compelled to make a big deal of it, which gets them sucked into some nation-building.
 
The British do nation building. Then I'm sure Ethiopias ethnic rivalries will be even worse in this TL, as wherever they've gone in this world the British are experts at wielding power despite small numbers.
 
23rd October – 29th October 1941– Libya – The Axis Counteroffensive – Part I – Vaunting Ambition

Garrison

Donor
23rd October – 29th October 1941– Libya – The Axis Counteroffensive – Part I – Vaunting Ambition

From the moment he set foot In Tripoli Sepp Dietrich began throwing his weight around, insisting on the Afrika Korps being given priority for food, fuel, and water. He also began a campaign of intimidation against the locals, particularly the local dock workers whom he regarded as feckless and looking for any opportunity to steal supplies. More ominously he suggested that there were Jews amongst the ranks of the locals, and the brutality of the SS troops towards anyone suspected of ‘sabotage’ soon earned them an evil reputation in Tripoli. Graziani did little to protest these actions, unwilling to risk angering Dietrich’s patrons in Berlin. The few diary entries Graziani made expressing dismay at the behaviour of the LSSAH all seem to have been added retroactively, he certainly did not dismiss the idea floated by Dietrich that the einsatzgruppen should be let loose in Libya to root out all undesirables, especially ‘secret Jews’. That such units would have to be deployed once Palestine had been conquered was practically a given for Dietrich, an idea that was fanciful and horrifying in equal measure [1].

Fulfilling such grandiose ambitions was not going to be achieved by waiting for the British to regroup and launch a new attack. Dietrich wanted the Axis forces to go on to the offensive while the British were still overextended and exhausted, naturally with the Afrika Korps taking the lead. Apell was far more ambivalent. He understood the merits of seizing the initiative but believed it would be necessary to wait until the 22nd, the LSSAH and the 90th were at full strength. Apell was also unhappy with the low priority the 22nd was receiving for shipments of new men and equipment. During September the LSSAH had received fresh tanks and vehicles to bring it closer to full strength, including two full platoons of the new Panzer IV Ausf G, the first model to be fitted with the long barreled75mm gun on the production line. The HQ of the 90th had also arrived as well as the first elements of the 347th Infantry Regiment. The 22nd Panzer on the other hand had received little more than a few ‘second hand’ Panzer 38(t) and Panzer II. Most of these tanks had been surplus after other units had replaced them with newer models and many of them need extensive work by the mechanics attached to the 22nd to get them working and some ended up being cannibalized to provide a supply of spares for the rest of the division.

Apell was hardly alone in being cautious, Marshal Graziani was pleased that he was finally receiving meaningful reinforcements and supplies. He was however aware that his battered forces needed time to recover and make themselves ready for fresh offensive actions. He was acutely aware of how Marshal Balbo’s offensive had left the Italian forces exposed to the British counteroffensive. Any attack on the British position at Sirte would have to be aimed at encircling the forces of what had now been renamed from Western Desert Command to 8th Army. The British had to be pinned in place and destroyed, which would require meticulous planning and the element of surprise.

Unfortunately for Apell and Graziani neither Mussolini nor Hitler was interested in such considerations. Mussolini had been demanding action practically since the British had come to a halt at Sirte. His only caveat was that while he certainly wanted to see the Afrika Korps involved in such an attack they would have to be subordinated to Italian command. Given the relative numbers of troops in Libya this made sense, but Mussolini’s primary concern was to ensure that any victory would be seen as an Italian one. He wanted something to restore battered Italian pride and to stop the whispers about his leadership that were already circulating in Rome.

For Hitler the change of strategy from shoring up the Italians to launching a full-scale offensive had nothing to do with prestige and everything to do with the developing military situation in the USSR. In August when the Afrika Korps had been dispatched it had seemed that victory in the east was imminent. In September that optimism was vanishing. The drive through the Ukraine had been a success but Moscow remained out of reach, and it seemed no matter how many Soviet divisions were destroyed more appeared to replace them. The Wehrmacht was now preparing for a fresh attempt to take the city in the shape of Operation Typhoon. This required a major shift in plans as the original, highly optimistic, intention was for resources to be shifted to the war in the west in the Autumn after the defeat of the USSR, with the Luftwaffe receiving high priority to build up its strength in the face of an anticipated ‘Anglo-American bomber fleet’. This was not the only reason to be concerned about the actions of the USA. The United States Navy’s actions in the Atlantic were those of a nation at war as far as Hitler was concerned and the fact that the best efforts of the U-Boats to sever the Atlantic supply line had failed just compounded matters. It now seemed likely that even the defeat of the USSR wouldn’t make the British see sense, they would have to be attacked directly and if the home islands were out of reach, then their Imperial possessions were the obvious target [2].

On the other side of the line at Sirte the British were certainly not exhausted or overextended at this point. They may have been reaching their limits during the last days of Operation Compass, however by the end of September things had improved considerably. The 2nd New Zealand and 50th Northumbrian Division had come up to relieve the Australian and Indian forces to allow them to be pulled back and refitted. On the 28th of August the 8th Army had been down to barely 90 running tanks. Courtesy of REME approximately another 60 had been restored to service and in addition to the tanks delivered by Convoy Lion a further smaller convoy codenamed Stag had delivered 33 Crusader IB and II. Among the Infantry Tanks delivered by Lion were 41 Valentine III models, also equipped with the 6pdr gun. These tanks should have been available before the similarly armed Crusaders, but for once the decision had been taken to iron out all the bugs in the vehicle before they entered full production and this desire for perfection had gotten somewhat out of hand. It fell to Alan Brooke, now a Field Marshal and CIGS, to point out that the tanks were needed, ‘in 1941, not 1951’ [3].

The Valentine III was a significant step up from previous versions, despite later claims to the contrary it was not a ‘universal tank’. It was very much still an infantry tank, lacking the proper balance of speed, protection and firepower to really be able to cover both the Infantry and Cruiser roles, that honour probably belongs to the successor to the Crusader, the Centaur [4].

Regardless by the end of September the British had almost 300 operational tanks with about 60% being Infantry tanks and the position at Sirte was being fortified with minefields and mutually supporting ‘brigade boxes’, the anglicized version of the Hedgehog system. This defensive posture caused some anxiety in London, with some seeing echoes of the stalemate on the Escault Line and Churchill was almost as eager for an offensive as Hitler or Mussolini, he however had three factors restraining him. Firstly, the dramatic success wrought by Alexander and O’Connor meant they could hardly be accused of lacking drive or aggression, thus their insistence that they needed time to prepare carried a lot of weight. Secondly, Alexander and O’Connor had the full support of Alan Brooke, doing a sterling job of fending off some of Churchill’s more outrageous ideas. Thirdly was the fact that Bletchley Park was becoming increasingly effective at penetrating the Enigma code. The arrival of the Afrika Korps and the volume of traffic between Tripoli, Berlin and Rome prompted by Dietrich’s ambitions allowed them to form a picture of German and Italian intentions, bolstered by other intelligence sources.

The British Generals agreed that if the enemy was willing to come out of their defences, they would be far easier to destroy, so long as they could be persuaded to attack where it suited the British. Thus, even as Berlin and Rome were planning their assault on Sirte the British were preparing to receive it [5].

[1] Dietrich actions are as a much a power play versus Graziani as it is genuine ideological commitment.

[2] Mussolini wants to restore his wounded pride and Hitler is still trying to find a solution to the puzzle of how to force the British to make peace.

[3] A reaction to issue with previous new models, which simply got out of hand.

[4] With the A24 Churchill and the A27 Centaur the line between cruiser and infantry is getting blurred and the British will in time shift to the medium and heavy designations, before MBT is adopted.

[5] So the British are well prepared for the defence, with no demands to send troops elsewhere while on the other side a mixture of ego and bad strategy is driving the Axis towards an impetuous counterattack.
 
with the Luftwaffe receiving high priority to build up its strength in the face of an anticipated ‘Anglo-American bomber fleet’.
Was/is that already anticipated with the US still not in the war?
On the other side of the line at Sirte the British were certainly not exhausted or overextended at this point. They may have been reaching their limits during the last days of Operation Compass, however by the end of September things had improved considerably.
Wouldn't the British have had similar logistics problems as Rommel had? Although they had more portcapacity in Egypt than Rommel had in Libya, there's still the issue that everything had to be transported by road (on a single road). Because if I'm right there was only a narrowtrack railway up to El Alamein, which isn't that helpful.
Although the British may have been smart enough not to keep driving forward until the logistics hit them in the face (as Rommel did).
 

Garrison

Donor
Was/is that already anticipated with the US still not in the war?
Oh yes, in OTL that was the plan, knock off the USSR and then concentrate on the air war. The Nazis knew the US was planning to build huge numbers of bombers, it was only a question of who would be flying them.
Wouldn't the British have had similar logistics problems as Rommel had? Although they had more portcapacity in Egypt than Rommel had in Libya, there's still the issue that everything had to be transported by road (on a single road). Because if I'm right there was only a narrowtrack railway up to El Alamein, which isn't that helpful.
Although the British may have been smart enough not to keep driving forward until the logistics hit them in the face (as Rommel did).
The British have a better logistical system, their convoys are more secure, they have more merchant shipping available and their war industries can just massively outproduce anything the Italians could approach. The Italians were chronically short of trucks in large part because they just couldn't produce nearly enough of them.
 
The British have a better logistical system, their convoys are more secure, they have more merchant shipping available and their war industries can just massively outproduce anything the Italians could approach. The Italians were chronically short of trucks in large part because they just couldn't produce nearly enough of them.
Still all those trucks have to use one single road, which limits the logistics. Also because literally everything you need has to be transported from port to the front. And that is a bottleneck. AFAIK one of the main reasons that the war in NA swung back and forth was that both sides had logisticical issues and tended to overstretch. After an advance, you stretched your lines of supply, while the enemies' supply became easier.

So I'm not so sure that the British would be able to make a really strong defensive position at Sirte when it's still only a 4-6 weeks after Compass ended. Just replenish the losses will take some time.
 
Still all those trucks have to use one single road, which limits the logistics. Also because literally everything you need has to be transported from port to the front. And that is a bottleneck. AFAIK one of the main reasons that the war in NA swung back and forth was that both sides had logisticical issues and tended to overstretch. After an advance, you stretched your lines of supply, while the enemies' supply became easier.

So I'm not so sure that the British would be able to make a really strong defensive position at Sirte when it's still only a 4-6 weeks after Compass ended. Just replenish the losses will take some time.
The problem for the Axis is that they are not falling back on their source of supplies which are in the other side of the Mediterranean & everything needs to be shipped over contested waters.
The British supplies have even further to travel but they have larger & more efficient shipping and even if travelling around Africa can make much of the trip unthreatened.
They also seemed to be more willing to use coastal shipping to the captured ports of Tobruk & Benghazi and even fairly small coasters can carry much more than lorries.
 
Still all those trucks have to use one single road, which limits the logistics. Also because literally everything you need has to be transported from port to the front. And that is a bottleneck. AFAIK one of the main reasons that the war in NA swung back and forth was that both sides had logisticical issues and tended to overstretch. After an advance, you stretched your lines of supply, while the enemies' supply became easier.

So I'm not so sure that the British would be able to make a really strong defensive position at Sirte when it's still only a 4-6 weeks after Compass ended. Just replenish the losses will take some time.
OTL , El Alamein, the German lines break 4th November 1942 ( battle officially finishes however on the 11th ), Tripoli falls 22nd Jan 1943, that's only 11 weeks total. So a pause of 4-6 weeks appears to be enough to resupply fully.
 
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