At the very least the British tanks' reputation of unreliability has been quite overstated. I assume a combat-ready Covenanter would have been similar in performance to 2pdr Crusaders.

I am still curious about the exact reason its production stopped without any successor designed by LMS or evolution similar to the Crusader. My possible explanations are:
- the design itself just couldn't cope with the weight increases the Crusader could deal with, which is not impossible considering the likely lower net power and the lower amount of roadwheels and shorter track contact length to distribute weight.
- the design could cope with the weight increases, but the Crusader or Nuffield's industrial capability was considered more promising to standardize on.
- Nuffield had better PR.
- The most likely one, LMS was simply considered more useful for other purposes since it was a locomotive builder and thus was not made part of the A27 production team, and as such no effort was made to keep the Covenanter up to date.

I cannot find where I read it but around 42/43 many of the Locomotive factories that had been repurposed to making tanks returned to making Locomotives and rolling stock

There had been talk of shipping us made trains to the UK and Empire but the maths of it was that it was easier for the USA to ship 25-30 ton tanks across the Atlantic than it was to ship much larger and heavier Locomotives and rolling stock and easier for the UK to make its own while using US made tanks instead of its own.

Again going from memory during that period the UK went from 28 factory's making tanks in 1942 to 12 odd?

So I think the answer is as you say - UK Locomotive factory's repurposed for Tank production early returning to Locomotive and rolling stock production mid war in the face of the massive ramp up of US Tank production during 1942 and 43.

List of firms making tanks in the UK 1939-42 - note how many of them are railway related.

39-42tankproduction.png
 
True but I expect Musssolini's ego also played a part. He would rather be able to boast he had 1000 tanks, even if they were terrible, than accept fewer, better, tanks.
Yes during Compass 10th Army had 11 Tank battalions - 9 of them equipped with L33s and only 2 with the M11/39 - 72 in total with the 1st and 2nd battalions of the 32nd Tank Infantry Regiment and all were destroyed/captured with some later used by the 2/6th Cavalry Commando Regiment in Trobruk until they became totally unserviceable.

Too your earlier point regarding the MK VI light tanks verses the Covenanter - the otherwise porcine M11/39 was more than a match for the British light tank - had these light tanks been replaced with even a 'bad' cruiser like the Covenantor then that issue would not have happened with the 2 pounder gun more than adequate to deal with the Italian AFV.
 

Garrison

Donor
Yes during Compass 10th Army had 11 Tank battalions - 9 of them equipped with L33s and only 2 with the M11/39 - 72 in total with the 1st and 2nd battalions of the 32nd Tank Infantry Regiment and all were destroyed/captured with some later used by the 2/6th Cavalry Commando Regiment in Trobruk until they became totally unserviceable.
And the Italian armoured formations had terrible serviceability, their paper strength versus what they could actually deploy never matched up.

Too your earlier point regarding the MK VI light tanks verses the Covenanter - the otherwise porcine M11/39 was more than a match for the British light tank - had these light tanks been replaced with even a 'bad' cruiser like the Covenantor then that issue would not have happened with the 2 pounder gun more than adequate to deal with the Italian AFV.

And the 2pdr was pretty good against the German tanks as well. Overall the Mk VI B seems to have been designed on the assumption it would never have to face another armoured vehicle. And I suspect the crews who manned them in France would have been willing to accept as you say even a 'bad' cruiser.
 
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And the Italian armoured formations had terrible serviceability, their paper strength versus what they could actually deploy never matched up.



And the 2pdr was pretty good against the German tanks as well. Overall the Mk VI B seems to have been designed on the assumption it would never have to face another armoured vehicle. And I suspect the crews who manned them in France would have been willing to accept as you say even a 'bad' cruiser.
The MkVI would have been good for a recce tank or even as a infantry support tank in the mid 30s or verses a foe without any anti tank capability - Spanish Civil war and fighting tribes in Africa etc

And it was not really until the late 30s that Antitank rifles became common

But it was negligent (and given the 20 wasted years necessary) to have placed troopers in it

I imagine the Italians felt the same way regarding the L33

Most early war tanks had poor availability but yes the M11/39 was especially bad!
 
December 5th – December 30th - Germany - War Postponed

Garrison

Donor
December 5th – December 30th - Germany - War Postponed

The outcome of the Munich conference had as previously mentioned left Hitler angry and somewhat bemused as to how he had been denied his war by the ‘wily’ Chamberlain. The sense he had been tricked simply stiffened his resolve that the agreement had only postponed the destruction of Czechoslovakia. He remained determined that Czechoslovakia be removed from the map as soon as possible. German representatives in Bratislava were already working to foment secessionist sentiment among the Slovaks, finding a ready audience with the likes of Józef Tiso [1], who would become the leader of the breakaway Slovak Republic and collaborate with the Nazis in imposing their racial policies in Slovak territory. Far from rallying around the Czechs its neighbours were already pressing their own territorial claims, with Poland going so far as to invade Czechoslovakia on the 28th of December and seizing what they called the Zaolzie territory. Hitler had reason to hope that this might lead the Poles to accept German overtures for an alliance, though these hopes would be dashed in short order, the Poles were not about to tie themselves to Nazi Germany so long as it laid claim to Polish territory.

As it happened Hitler’s demands for the dissolution of Czechoslovakia by force as soon as possible provoked none of the anxiety, or scheming, it had in September for several reasons. Firstly, The Munich Agreement had physically stripped away the Czech border defences. Secondly internal tensions meant it was unlikely Czechoslovakia could even muster the whole of its army if they did decide to contest an invasion. Thirdly, and most importantly, the agreement proved that the British and the French would not go to war over Czech sovereignty. Able to launch attacks from multiple fronts against a country in disarray OKH was confident the Wehrmacht could occupy Czechoslovakia without unduly straining their limited resources. Goering jovially voiced the opinion that the mere threat of unleashing the Luftwaffe’s bombers on Prague would be more than enough to bring them to their knees.

When news of the passage of the MTA and the new military procurement plans reached Berlin Hitler presented a public face of being unimpressed by these actions, dismissing them as ‘window dressing’ designed to bolster ‘English’ morale and of no practical consequence, Britain was first and foremost a naval power after all and its army was insignificant. Behind closed doors it was a very different matter. Hitler was convinced that Munich had been nothing but a ploy by the British to play for time and address the inadequacies of their armed forces. By resisting his calls for an immediate move against the Czechs his subordinates had played into Chamberlain’s hands, and he made his displeasure crystal clear in a series of bruising meetings with von Brauchitsch, Halder and other staff officers. His response to the increased funding for the British forces was to demand an increase in Germany’s own armaments production that would dwarf anything the British could achieve, in the short term at least.

The branches of the Wehrmacht duly obliged with grandiose plans that did indeed put Chamberlain’s proposal in the shade. The Heer’s plan call for more artillery and more ammunition first and foremost, increasing tank production was certainly included but it was not regarded as a critical priority. The overwhelming bulk of the tanks in the German arsenal were the Panzer I and Panzer II Light Tanks. The former being another machine gun armed vehicle, though arguably a better machine than the MK VI B Light. The Panzer II was a more powerful machine with a 20mm cannon; however it was still regarded as an intermediate machine and the role of fighting other tanks was intended to be filled by the Panzer III, early models of which was already in production, but with only a few dozen completed by the end of 1938. The Panzer IV had also entered production and despite later better armed, models proving highly effective against other tanks later it was intended purely as an infantry support vehicle in 1938 and was only equipped with a short barrelled 75mm howitzer [2].

For the Luftwaffe Goering offered up bombastic plans for the construction of thousands of Ju 88 bombers alongside the proven Bf 109 single engine fighter and the Bf 110 twin engine fighter, the latter intended to serve as a long-range bomber escort. Neither the Bf 110 [3] nor the Ju 88 [4] would live up to the expectations placed upon them when they entered combat, but in 1938 they were both seen as key in improving the capabilities of the Luftwaffe, which fell far short of the dire predictions circulating in London.

The Kriegsmarine certainly proposed building more U-Boats, though priority remained with the creation of a powerful surface fleet. Admiral Raeder essentially ignored the clear warning from the Sudetenland Crisis that any notion of war being postponed until the mid-1940’s was simply unrealistic. That Raeder’s stuck to his plans probably reflected Hitler’s enthusiasm for large surface ships and the fear that if Raeder expressed any doubts about their utility, well then the funds allocated to the Kriegsmarine programs might be reallocated to the Heer and the Luftwaffe rather than being used for U-Boats and more practical surface ships.

As dramatic and ominous as these targets for thousand of bombers and tanks sounded it was, to quote Shakespeare, ‘all sound and fury signifying nothing’. All of them were doomed by the fundamental economic and resource limitations that had derailed previous nearly identical proposals for rapidly increasing arms production. Above all else the Reich’s steel industry could not meet the demands being placed on it. Civilian production, export industries, new industrial capacity, such as synthetic oil plants, the railways and the building of fortifications all had a call on the available production and while some might airily suggest cuts in the civilian sector the steel used in those industries was not being used to create luxuries for the ordinary German citizen but to make things like stoves and farm tools. Increasing the steel ‘ration’ of the Wehrmacht could only be done at the expense of German families and the exports that raised much needed foreign currency or could be bartered with friendly nations [5].

The industries of the Reich certainly tried to meet Hitler’s demands, they had little choice after all, but they would fall far short. The truth was that the Nazi military machine was reaching the limits of what could be done in a peacetime economy regardless of how ruthlessly the state regulated production and raw material allocation. Germany’s enemies could ramp up their rearmament and overtake Germany if they wished to do so, and the evidence from London and Paris suggested that was exactly what they intended to do. Sooner or later whatever advantages the Wehrmacht might enjoy would be eroded and this prospect increasingly weighed on Hitler’s mind.

[1] Short bio of Tiso here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Tiso

[2] The Wehrmacht proved remarkably stubborn about sticking with this separation of functions even though to the casual observer their similarities were far more pronounced than their differences.

[3] The Bf 110 would later prove to be an effective night fighter but as a daylight bomber escort it proved a failure when faced with modern single engine fighters. Efforts to replace it were undertaken but the Me 210 suffered serious issues that rendered them death traps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210

[4] The Ju 88 was supposed the be the schnellbomber the Luftwaffe so desperately wanted, but by the time it entered service fighter evolution had overtaken it and combined with early technical issues it was a severe disappointment during its early deployments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88

[5] I can’t come close to doing justice to the topic of the Nazi economy and some of you can already guess which book I am going to suggest for further reading if you really want to understand the subject:

Wages of Destruction
 

marathag

Banned
Yeah I used to just accept the 'British tanks were terrible' viewpoint, but the more you look into it the more you realize that they were actually pretty effective, once they were given time for crews and maintenance personnel to be trained and proper equipment and tools put in place. On the other hand the reputation of the Panzers is seriously overstated, as if every German tank was a Panther or a Tiger, which both also had issues.
Objectively, they were 2nd rate until 1945, chronic undergunned, and reliability issues until 1943.
Making over 1700 tanks that were of no use except training, you just can't much shine the Turd that was the Covenanter.
Could it have been better? Sure, but that's a low bar, considering all its issues.
It wasn't as good as the M2A4 of 1938, in 1941.
 

marathag

Banned
It's not that anyone is arguing that its a great tank, but that it just doesn't deserve to keep showing up as one of the worst tanks when vehicles like the Italian tankettes saw frontline service. It's hard to imagine it would have been less effective in France for the British than the Mk VI B.
But that's just it, the L3 actually was used in combat, poor as it was
 
Making over 1700 tanks that were of no use except training, you just can't much shine the Turd that was the Covenanter.
Could it have been better? Sure, but that's a low bar, considering all its issues.
It wasn't as good as the M2A4 of 1938, in 1941.
By that criterium the Ram was shit. Except both it and the Covenanter weren't. The reason the Covenanter remained used in training instead of going in combat is that by the time parts shortages had been solved, the British frontline units were flooded with similar or better tanks and there wasn't really any room for deploying the Covvies.
It would have been competitive with the Stuarts in some units but considering that the latter tanks were already more established logistically, there was no point.

As for M2A4, first it's only 1 year younger in production and it IS worse. 25-38mm armor instead of 40mm (Covvie can at least tank 37mm guns), less capable suspension offroad, 2-man instead of 3-man turret, similar armament.
 

marathag

Banned
By that criterium the Ram was shit. Except both it and the Covenanter weren't.
The Ram was reliable, and didn't roast the crew, or give the TC a concussion from poor hatch design.
If the Canucks had made 1700 Rams, they would have been used for other tasks, like APCs or SPGs, or use the Hull for other useful things, like recovery or same such.

Back to the Covenanter. They made enough tanks for training, that the UK could have trained -ten- Brigades worth of crews at the same time with them
That's excessive number of vehicles, given how many Armored units the UK actually fielded, with early- mid war formations having roughly 150-170 tanks

That Production line should have been closed after a couple hunded , and then convert to something that was combat worthy, like Valentine
 

Garrison

Donor
The Ram was reliable, and didn't roast the crew, or give the TC a concussion from poor hatch design.
If the Canucks had made 1700 Rams, they would have been used for other tasks, like APCs or SPGs, or use the Hull for other useful things, like recovery or same such.

Back to the Covenanter. They made enough tanks for training, that the UK could have trained -ten- Brigades worth of crews at the same time with them
That's excessive number of vehicles, given how many Armored units the UK actually fielded, with early- mid war formations having roughly 150-170 tanks

That Production line should have been closed after a couple hunded , and then convert to something that was combat worthy, like Valentine
That might have been better and I was at one time just going to have the program cancelled and replaced by something else. However I was persuaded that given the OTL insistence on pressing ahead and the investment already made in the Covenanter, not to mention the greater push for more equipment for a potential BEF, it would get accelerated along with the other designs and see some front line service. it was one of those things where it would be nice for the British to make a better decision but not totally plausible, and I'm saving the possibly less plausible moments for bigger things ;) . Its the same reason I decided against giving Frank Whittle more funding sooner or having an earlier Mosquito, the RAF would take extra funding and put it into more 'sensible' projects. Again if anyone has a solid argument otherwise to justify earlier jet fighters or Mosquitos I would love to hear it.
 
Hello,

So far, it is interesting reading. It appears tank and AFV development could be heading in a different direction. Is possible that with Chamberlain's injuries from the plane crash, his future health may have been adversely affected (i.e. an earlier debilitation or death)?

Also it looks like Germany's preparations for the future seem to be on track similarly to OTL. The biggest concern is that AdHit may still be gambling on a fast series of victories bas on the work of this person...
 
If we are talking about a war that starts more or less at the same date as in OTL, the type of british tanks doesn't really matter. As long as they have 2pdr instead of machine guns and organized and trained formations exist, it will be more than enough for spring 1940.

In my view, what matters most is the policy on expanding the BEF and BAFF in France and how urgent this built-up is perceived.

According to Smalley's "The British Expeditionary Force, 1939-1940":
The BEF deployed to France with no set training schedules, no standardized inspection mechanisms and no minimum capability requirements; these were considered internal matters and left to the discretion of each unit’s commanding officer.
Any improvement in training would pay dividends.

With more troops available due to the earlier conscription, it might be possible to send the green troops in Palestine and Egypt to finish their training while brigades of Regulars from these garrisons form the cadre for an additional 3-division corps in France.

In OTL the British hoped to field 20 divisions in France by September 1940 and 32 by September 1941. I am sceptical on the former figure, since it was a theoretical figure that clashed with the available production rate. In any case, I doubt the British intend to go to full war economy at January 1939. Furthermore, since they have to equip many more men than they have the current ability to, I doubt that they will prioritize new tank designs that need new industrial equipment. They have a hundred priorities from howitzers to AA guns. Therefore, I believe that they would stick to the A9s, A10s and Matilda IIs - perhaps Valentines also.

If you had to choose between a whole armoured division with A9s and A10s (plus replacement tanks to cover losses) after 12-15 months or a single armoured brigade with A13s and less general equipment (e.g. 25pdr) , what would you choose ?

If you check the production tables here, pushing up production by 4 months does not yield the equipment for a 20 division BEF or an armoured division with new (A13s) tanks.
 

Garrison

Donor
Hello,

So far, it is interesting reading. It appears tank and AFV development could be heading in a different direction. Is possible that with Chamberlain's injuries from the plane crash, his future health may have been adversely affected (i.e. an earlier debilitation or death)?

Also it looks like Germany's preparations for the future seem to be on track similarly to OTL. The biggest concern is that AdHit may still be gambling on a fast series of victories bas on the work of this person...
I can't really discuss Guederian or Manstein's role ITTL, but probably goes without saying things will be different.
 

Garrison

Donor
If you check the production tables here, pushing up production by 4 months does not yield the equipment for a 20 division BEF or an armoured division with new (A13s) tanks.
To be clear they will be nothing like fully re-equipped. They will be better off than OTL but the effect will build up across time in combinations with certain butterflies that are still quite a few posts away. And as a reminder I do have a rough draft of everything in that 1938-1942 period, so yes I do know where its going.
 
The Ram was reliable, and didn't roast the crew
It was literally shown in troop trials that Covenanter was not worse than any other type in service, which includes Grants and Valentines which are usually highly regarded for reliability. The roasting thing is overrated.

"The full fixes for the Cove cooling system were tested in Nov of 1941 and considered good for tropical conditions
Initial water temperature from unmodified Cove was 157C during a maximum torque test, the interim fixes applied to vehicles dropped that to 135C
After the rework it dropped to 110C"

That's why the Mk III and IV were considered suitable for deployment under emergency conditions (sudden need for a shitload of tanks in theater).
, or give the TC a concussion from poor hatch design.
So exactly like Crusader then? And it was a risk, not actual incidents.
That Production line should have been closed after a couple hunded , and then convert to something that was combat worthy, like Valentine
The Brits were screaming for Cruiser tanks, and the Crusader wasn't any better until the 6-pounder version, by which time it was too late to convert production of Covenanters. To say nothing of the fact that the British wanted as many tanks as they could get in the 40-early 43 period. And the Covenanters WERE combat-worthy, but it was simply more useful to keep them in UK-based units. Again, there are hundreds of Rams (those that were not converted into Kangaroos or OP vehicles) and hundreds of Shermans or Lees in CONUS that never fought. Not being used because there were more modern tanks in enough numbers when deployment was needed doesn't make a tank bad.

@Garrison
That might have been better and I was at one time just going to have the program cancelled and replaced by something else.
Another reason why this wasn't plausible is that its procurement off the drawing board made it impossible to see any problems before mass production was underway. ITTL, the British still don't have any good reason to go for a more conventionnal procurement decision. One could argue that it was redundant with Crusader even before production, but nobody could anticipate issues with this tank too so there was no guarantee that it would work. In this regard the redundancy may have been an insurance in case one of the Cruisers didn't work (although in reality, the Crusader also didn't exactly fit the same spec as Covenanter, as Armored Archive's video on the Crusader showed).
 
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marathag

Banned
The roasting thing is overrated.
There is an easy test.
Next summer, leave the heat on in your vehicle. Take a trip. Notice the difference?

Regular tanks were rolling solar ovens, that didn't have coolant lines going thru the crew compartment.


The Brits were screaming for Cruiser tanks, and the Crusader wasn't any better
And they wasted effort on 1700 that would -never- be used, while the 2pdr Crusader was, with all its unreliability

But the Covenanter wasn't used.
Even the Centaurs were used at D-Day, with their poor reliability for 1944 Liberty engines, and Crusaders too, or at least their hulls were as gun tractors and such
 

marathag

Banned
"The full fixes for the Cove cooling system were tested in Nov of 1941 and considered good for tropical conditions
Initial water temperature from unmodified Cove was 157C during a maximum torque test, the interim fixes applied to vehicles dropped that to 135C
After the rework it dropped to 110C"
That was for the engine overheating(that took several tried to fix), not what it did to the crew.
Engine cooling went from unacceptable, to acceptable. Not crew compartment
 
With an earlier push for rearmament, be interesting to see what happens with A10 production. According to Wiki when deployed in France, "...the cross country performance was recorded as poor, but they were still used later in North Africa at the defence of Tobruk in 1941, where reliability and suspension performance in the desert conditions was praised. Sixty worn out examples were taken to Greece by the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment and, although they performed well against the German tanks, over 90% were lost due to mechanical breakdowns as opposed to enemy action..."
I wonder how much of this was due to insufficient training and maintenance at first being addressed by 1941. Considering they are reasonably comparable with Pzkpfw35t, 38t and early III a higher number in France in better condition could have interesting butterflies.
 
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