Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
They were part of the Topicalization process that the Hurrican IIB, sorry not A's got. From WiKi The Hurrican was better than the dismal Buffalo, but it was still outclassed. The RAF needed Spitfires and P-40's to tip the scales.
Far East[edit]
Hawker Hurricane Mk.II of 232 Squadron shot down on 8 February 1942 during the Battle of Singapore
Following the outbreak of the war with Japan, 51 Hurricane Mk.IIBs en route to Iraq were diverted to Singapore; 10 were in crates, the others partially disassembled, these and the 24 pilots (many of whom were veterans of the Battle of Britain), who had been transferred to the theatre, formed the nucleus of five squadrons. They arrived on 13 January 1942, by which time the Allied fighter squadrons in Singapore, flying Brewster Buffalos, had been overwhelmed during the Malayan campaign. The fighters of the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force, especially the Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar, had been underestimated in its capability, numbers and the strategy of its commanders.[128][129]
Thanks to the efforts of the 151st Maintenance Unit, the 51 Hurricanes were assembled and ready for testing within 48 hours and of these, 21 were ready for operational service within three days. The Hurricanes were fitted with bulky 'Vokes' dust filters under the nose and were armed with 12, rather than eight, machine guns. The additional weight and drag made them slow to climb and unwieldy to manoeuvre at altitude, although they were more effective bomber killers.[130]
The recently arrived pilots were formed into 232 Squadron and 488 (NZ) Squadron, flying Buffaloes, converted to Hurricanes. On 18 January, the two squadrons formed the basis of 226 Group; 232 Squadron became operational on 22 January and suffered the first losses and victories for the Hurricane in Southeast Asia.[131] Between 27 and 30 January, another 48 Hurricanes Mk.IIB arrived with the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable, from which they flew to airfields code-named P1 and P2, near Palembang, Sumatra in the Netherlands East Indies.
Because of inadequate early warning systems (the first British radar stations became operational only towards the end of February), Japanese air raids were able to destroy 30 Hurricanes on the ground in Sumatra, most of them in one raid on 7 February. After Japanese landings in Singapore, on 10 February, the remnants of 232 and 488 Squadrons were withdrawn to Palembang. Japanese paratroopers began the invasion of Sumatra on 13 February. Hurricanes destroyed six Japanese transport ships on 14 February but lost seven aircraft in the process. On 18 February, the remaining Allied aircraft and aircrews moved to Java, with only 18 serviceable Hurricanes out of the original 99.[132] That month, 12 Hurricane Mk.IIB Trops were supplied to the Dutch forces on Java. With dust filters removed and fuel and ammo load in wings halved, these were able to stay in a turn with the Oscars they fought.[133] After Java was invaded, some of the New Zealand pilots were evacuated by sea to Australia.
Hurricane V7476 sent to Australia in May 1941, arriving in August, was the only Hurricane based in Australia during the Second World War. The tropicalised Vokes air filter, which was fitted to many types operating in the Pacific, is visible under the nose.
When a Japanese carrier task force under the command of Admiral Chūichi Nagumo made a sortie into the Indian Ocean in April 1942, RAF Hurricanes based on Ceylon saw action against Nagumo's forces during attacks on Colombo on 5 April 1942 and on Trincomalee harbour on 9 April 1942.[134]
On 5 April 1942, Captain Mitsuo Fuchida of the Imperial Japanese Navy, who led the attack on Pearl Harbor, led a strike against Colombo with 53 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers and 38 Aichi D3A dive bombers, escorted by 36 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters.[135] They were opposed by 35 Hurricane I and IIBs of 30 and 258 Squadrons, together with six Fairey Fulmars of 803 and 806 Naval Air Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm.[136] The Hurricanes mainly tried to shoot down the attacking bombers, but were engaged heavily by the escorting Zeros.[137] A total of 21 Hurricanes were shot down (although two of these were repairable),[138] together with four Fulmars[139] and six Swordfish of 788 Naval Air Squadron that had been surprised in flight by the raid.[140] The RAF claimed 18 Japanese aircraft destroyed, seven probably destroyed and nine damaged, with one aircraft claimed by a Fulmar and five by anti-aircraft fire. This compared with actual Japanese losses of one Zero and six D3As, with a further seven D3As, five B5Ns and three Zeros damaged.[137][141]
On 9 April 1942, the Japanese task force sent 91 B5Ns escorted by 41 Zeros against Trincomalee port and the nearby China Bay airfield.[142] Sixteen Hurricanes opposed the raid, of which eight were lost with a further three damaged.[143] They claimed eight Japanese aircraft destroyed with a further four probably destroyed and at least five damaged. Actual Japanese losses were three A6Ms and two B5Ns, with a further 10 B5Ns damaged.[144]
Without those filters, however, you'd be looking at engine failure and inability to even get off the ground. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Not quite. Dust was apparently just as much of a problem in the East as it was in the Western Desert. The filters were never popular with pilots, to be sure, but the overall conclusion that most sources have drawn was that their benefits outweighed any reduction in engine performance caused by excess wear from dust entry.
The Hurricane, if it carried two or four less MGs could outmaneuver the Zero. It's turn was nearly as good and it's climb was only slightly worse. This was outlined in a memoire by a Hurricane pilot who served in Singapore and Sumatra, against the Japanese.
Some AVG pilots also opted to strip their P-40s' armament down to four guns instead of six to make them more nimble in a turning fight with the Hayabusas. Four .50s or eight .303s is still more than enough to torch any Japanese aircraft.
I believe that is with the filters off, and a minimal fuel, and ammo load as well as the lighter armament. It also depends on what altitude, and speed you're talking about. The 2C version was faster than the Zero, but it wasn't tropicalized. The Zero has a better power to weight ratio, and almost 8 lbs. lower wing loading, though at over 300 mph the Zero's controls get pretty stiff.
To a degree yes don’t get me wrong the Spit and the Hurri are very good airframe, but the turning is over hyped to a degree the majority of pilots didn't really push it due to warnings in the pilots notes, no fuel injectors that was fixed partially due to a washer but it suffered from cutouts without it which caused issues in a dog fight, limited ammo capacity of .303 which effected combat endurance as well, lack of a cannon which the pilots cried for, lack of a variable pitched propellor which effected climbing and menvuerbility, indeed mk1 had a lot of flaws the potential was there but it needed polish but compared to the 109 and it's successor the Spit had a great deal of room to get better and better and what could be fixed in the BoB was.
However unlike what it was flying against the biggest advantage of the spit and Hurri mk1 is an easier aircraft to train and fly one when compared to the 109 indeed the 109 had a nasty habit of killing inexperienced pilots who didn't have enough flight hours and training. Adding to this production rates and improvements made in BoB as well as the British and allied pilots also being in a better mental state than their German counterparts.
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Merrick, no London hasn't signed off Operation Betty, Matador or any other enterprise that results in violating Thai neutrality. However should the Japanese occupy any part of eastern Thailand, then Lord Gort and co won't have any problem landing troops on Phuket, western Thailand, to help evacuate British and Australian tin miners and their families. Oh, and if an Italian merchant ship or two gets snapped up, well all the better!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi patch_g, thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure how long the timeline will run for, at least until March 1942, but its very dependant on how things pan out for me, If I can't save Singapore, things could be over by then.
In OTL there were a few units, notably the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, who were trained and clued up for jungle warfare, and who did fight effectively against the Japanese.
There weren't enough of them, which may have been fixed iTTL.
But jungle training did exist, and was effective against the Japanese, in the Malaya campaign.
Just not enough of it.
Aye and when it came to it they got thrown into the fire more often as well because of this, the CO who trained them Ian Stewart was considered a crank but his training for them to operate in extreme and hostile environments meant they fought more effectively and could have live longer.
Heck Wavell said this about him
I am really enjoying this thread, and I am learning a lot from all the posts.
Thank you
Thank you
Possibly the RAF might have learned about the vulnerability of Japanese warplanes to fire by reports coming out of China. But yes, it does seem like quite an unlikely stretch. There were 303 incendiary ammunition in use with the RAF in Britain. Whether there was any shipped out to Singapore in OTL I don't know.
I can't remember if they were sent MkIIA or MkIIB , I mean MkIIA has a better engine set-up however I think they got the MkIIB which has a alightly better armament and the improvements of the 2a. Though I'd really want some cannon-armed fighters since given the relatively light construction on Japanese Fighters and Bombers they could get torn to pieces by some canon-armed fighters.
The .303 incendiary would do a number on the enemy but the problem is getting in in quantity, there maybe lines in Australia to produce this type of ammunition but not sure.
Though I'm not really an expert in air war.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
There are a significant number of differences between the Japanese and British application of radar and fighter forces, that go back to pre war. All though Britain and Japan are very similar nations being islands of the coast of a continent, filled with tea drinking hard working people, their geography, history and culture are very different. However up until the First World War their relationship was basically friendly, and it was a combination of Japanese resentment at what it saw was its exclusion from the opportunities to develop an Empire of its own, and American anti colonialism that saw the friendship degenerate. In addition Britain had seen its splendid isolation evaporated during WWI, as for the first time in a long time its cities were subjected to attacks. The primitive German air attacks, which were ineffectual on a material level, were however very effective morally. Thus Britain which had relied on its wooden walls the Royal Navy for its defence, now had to take into consideration a totally new threat, that of air assault. And so after the initial post war holiday, work was undertaken to deal with this threat. Various reviews in the early twenties saw the establishment of the Observer Corps in 1925, to monitor and report on air raids. Extensive work was carried out on methods to detect aircraft before they were in visual range, including research into sound detection and infrared systems. Research into a death ray, led to the rediscovery of the principal of radar, and its subsequent development in Britain.
Japan however hadn’t been subjected to any air attacks, and facing due to a number of factors, little chance of being so, distance from China and lack of Chinese technological capability. Didn’t prioritise this field of research, and being a much more controlled society didn’t develop the extensive amateur wireless/radio community that Britain did. This was also a problem for Germany which once the Nazis were in power, effectively shut down their amateur wireless/radio system. Germany and Japan, also regarded the experts as being less important than the front line officers. By the outbreak of WWII, Britain had the most sophisticated air defence system in the world, this despite the Germans having better radar. The German radar was far in advance of the basic British primitive lash up system. But an air defence system is made up of two parts, the hardware and the software, and while the Germans hardware was mostly better than the British, their software was virtually non existent until 1941. By the outbreak of the war, the British had developed the Dowding system, which made best use of the hardware available, and was the major factor in the relative success of the British in the BoB. And while the system that has been established in Singapore and Malaya, is yet another glorious British lash up. It is under the command of a man Park who commanded the most attacked sector of Britain during the BoB, and has managed to fill his present command with men who like him have seen action. Note the pilots in his fighter squadrons all though green, will have had more than six hours instruction, and are being led by men who have fought before.
The Japanese who neglected the development of radar, having received information from the Germans, and from their own agents in Europe, are now beginning to investigate. However they are very dependent on the Germans, and the Germans have a number of problems themselves. While there is no doubt that their radar systems are far superior to the British, and having examined captured British radar sets during the fall of France. They know just how primitive British radar is in comparison to theirs, they still don’t have an understanding of just how superior the British software is. And given the distance between Germany and Japan, there is little chance of the Germans being able to send a team of experts to assist the Japanese in their radar project. Remember this is pre war Japan, not the post war Japan that became an electronics powerhouse, unlike Britain, America, France or Germany, it has a very underdeveloped electronics industry. And unlike the Anglo American alliance, which was in place prior to American entry into the war, which shared a tremendous amount of information, the Germans were reluctant to share information with either the Italians or the Japanese. Yes the Japanese have an extensive spy network in Malaya and Singapore, but unless it is intellectually directed, and is able to gain insider information on the system being developed, all it can do is report that a radio/wireless site has been established at position X. And unless the signor officers listen to their junior intelligence officers, and have some understanding of what they are being told, the majority of the information that has been gathered will just end up buried in a filling cabinet.
There has been some discussion about the ability of the Japanese to conduct bombing missions against the British, without the British being able to do much about them. This has included sending the bombers through the central spine of Malaya, using the terrain to mask their approach. However I would postulate that such an attack during this period in time, would impossible. Without terrain following radar, and collision avoidance radar, trying to use the terrain to mask their approach, would see numerous aircraft having an encounter with a rock filled cloud. The standard practice at this time, if you were going to send a bomber formation through mountains, you send them over the top of the highest mountain with a thousand feet at least clearance. And if there are clouds around you would like to send them over the top of the clouds, that’s if your bombers have an oxygen delivery system fitted. Given the distances involved, it is doubtful that any of the initial attacks on Singapore will have fighter escorts. And providing that alongside the radar system, a radio monitoring system and observer capability has been developed. The fighter aircraft will have the time to respond to any attack and take off with sufficient time to reach an altitude higher than the attacking aircraft. In addition given the limited number of routes available for the attackers to return, additional fighters deployed along the route, will be able to be launched to attack the returning attackers. This isn’t Britain, were the retreating German aircraft were able to retire across the channel and be under the protection of their own forces. Any retiring Japanese aircraft have a long way to go before they are able to be protected. And if the British are clever, they will launch a long range twin engine aircraft to follow the Japanese formation, broadcasting its position, until it becomes too dangerous to carry on.
RR.
Japan however hadn’t been subjected to any air attacks, and facing due to a number of factors, little chance of being so, distance from China and lack of Chinese technological capability. Didn’t prioritise this field of research, and being a much more controlled society didn’t develop the extensive amateur wireless/radio community that Britain did. This was also a problem for Germany which once the Nazis were in power, effectively shut down their amateur wireless/radio system. Germany and Japan, also regarded the experts as being less important than the front line officers. By the outbreak of WWII, Britain had the most sophisticated air defence system in the world, this despite the Germans having better radar. The German radar was far in advance of the basic British primitive lash up system. But an air defence system is made up of two parts, the hardware and the software, and while the Germans hardware was mostly better than the British, their software was virtually non existent until 1941. By the outbreak of the war, the British had developed the Dowding system, which made best use of the hardware available, and was the major factor in the relative success of the British in the BoB. And while the system that has been established in Singapore and Malaya, is yet another glorious British lash up. It is under the command of a man Park who commanded the most attacked sector of Britain during the BoB, and has managed to fill his present command with men who like him have seen action. Note the pilots in his fighter squadrons all though green, will have had more than six hours instruction, and are being led by men who have fought before.
The Japanese who neglected the development of radar, having received information from the Germans, and from their own agents in Europe, are now beginning to investigate. However they are very dependent on the Germans, and the Germans have a number of problems themselves. While there is no doubt that their radar systems are far superior to the British, and having examined captured British radar sets during the fall of France. They know just how primitive British radar is in comparison to theirs, they still don’t have an understanding of just how superior the British software is. And given the distance between Germany and Japan, there is little chance of the Germans being able to send a team of experts to assist the Japanese in their radar project. Remember this is pre war Japan, not the post war Japan that became an electronics powerhouse, unlike Britain, America, France or Germany, it has a very underdeveloped electronics industry. And unlike the Anglo American alliance, which was in place prior to American entry into the war, which shared a tremendous amount of information, the Germans were reluctant to share information with either the Italians or the Japanese. Yes the Japanese have an extensive spy network in Malaya and Singapore, but unless it is intellectually directed, and is able to gain insider information on the system being developed, all it can do is report that a radio/wireless site has been established at position X. And unless the signor officers listen to their junior intelligence officers, and have some understanding of what they are being told, the majority of the information that has been gathered will just end up buried in a filling cabinet.
There has been some discussion about the ability of the Japanese to conduct bombing missions against the British, without the British being able to do much about them. This has included sending the bombers through the central spine of Malaya, using the terrain to mask their approach. However I would postulate that such an attack during this period in time, would impossible. Without terrain following radar, and collision avoidance radar, trying to use the terrain to mask their approach, would see numerous aircraft having an encounter with a rock filled cloud. The standard practice at this time, if you were going to send a bomber formation through mountains, you send them over the top of the highest mountain with a thousand feet at least clearance. And if there are clouds around you would like to send them over the top of the clouds, that’s if your bombers have an oxygen delivery system fitted. Given the distances involved, it is doubtful that any of the initial attacks on Singapore will have fighter escorts. And providing that alongside the radar system, a radio monitoring system and observer capability has been developed. The fighter aircraft will have the time to respond to any attack and take off with sufficient time to reach an altitude higher than the attacking aircraft. In addition given the limited number of routes available for the attackers to return, additional fighters deployed along the route, will be able to be launched to attack the returning attackers. This isn’t Britain, were the retreating German aircraft were able to retire across the channel and be under the protection of their own forces. Any retiring Japanese aircraft have a long way to go before they are able to be protected. And if the British are clever, they will launch a long range twin engine aircraft to follow the Japanese formation, broadcasting its position, until it becomes too dangerous to carry on.
RR.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
And
I'm not sure the incendiary rounds are such a big miss, the Hurricane packs a big enough punch for the Japanese fighters anyway, what's more difficult is hitting them, given such a manoeuvrable aircraft in the hands of an experienced pilot.
If you're building a radar network lots of people have to know it's a radar network. A Japanese spy seeing the kind of aerials being built would have to know they're not radio towers. Having inside information on air ground Leason would tell them it's a radar network. You don't build a supporting military camp with Commnications systems around a radio tower. The Japanese would know the British were building a radar network. Understanding that flying in at a lower altitude to cut down on warning time is a simple concept. To be in the radar shadow of a mountain you don't have to fly at treetop level, you just have to fly on the other side of the mountain.
Fighter Command had warning time because Luftwaffe bomber formations would take time to mass over France at high altitude. This gave time to take off and climb to an altitude above the bombers. The Japanese would be coming in to attack airfields at much lower altitudes, and at higher speeds than formations of HE-111's. Fighter Command had more of a problem defending against low level attacks for the same reasons. Even with radar the RAF in Malaya will have much less warning time, and with fighters with much slower rates of climb it's not likely they'll be slaughtering Japanese bombers.
The idea that they'd have reserve fighters to chase retreating Japanese aircraft is unrealistic considering the RAF is outnumbered and having to deal with a sea & land invasion at the same time. The RAF fighters in Malaya even in this TL are at a disadvantage against their Japanese counterparts. Radar will improve the odds against your operational aircraft being caught on the ground. It won't do much for the nonoperational aircraft on the airfields. The Japanese are still going to tear up the RAF in Malaya, and over run their airfield on the ground.