They were part of the Topicalization process that the Hurrican IIB, sorry not A's got. From WiKi The Hurrican was better than the dismal Buffalo, but it was still outclassed. The RAF needed Spitfires and P-40's to tip the scales.Hi Belisarius, I thought the heavy air filters on the Hurricanes were a hangover from operations in the North African deserts.
Without those filters, however, you'd be looking at engine failure and inability to even get off the ground. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.The tropicalized Hurrican IIB in Malaya had heavy air filters which reduced performance giving them little chance unless they had an attitude advantage at the beginning of the engagement.
Not quite. Dust was apparently just as much of a problem in the East as it was in the Western Desert. The filters were never popular with pilots, to be sure, but the overall conclusion that most sources have drawn was that their benefits outweighed any reduction in engine performance caused by excess wear from dust entry.Hi Belisarius, I thought the heavy air filters on the Hurricanes were a hangover from operations in the North African deserts.
The Hurricane, if it carried two or four less MGs could outmaneuver the Zero. It's turn was nearly as good and it's climb was only slightly worse. This was outlined in a memoire by a Hurricane pilot who served in Singapore and Sumatra, against the Japanese.In the case of the Italians, they were fighting against know obsolete designs. How long did it take in the OTL to understand how dangerous Japanese fighters and pilots were, before they could change tactics? It wasn't until the RAF got heavier, and faster fighters in SEA like the Spitfire Mk V that they could take on the Zero, or Oscar. The P-40's was faster than the Zero, and could out dive them, but no Allied fighter at the time had a faster rate of climb or could out turn ether of them. The tropicalized Hurrican IIB in Malaya had heavy air filters which reduced performance giving them little chance unless they had an attitude advantage at the beginning of the engagement.
Some AVG pilots also opted to strip their P-40s' armament down to four guns instead of six to make them more nimble in a turning fight with the Hayabusas. Four .50s or eight .303s is still more than enough to torch any Japanese aircraft.The Hurricane, if it carried two or four less MGs could outmaneuver the Zero. It's turn was nearly as good and it's climb was only slightly worse. This was outlined in a memoire by a Hurricane pilot who served in Singapore and Sumatra, against the Japanese.
I believe that is with the filters off, and a minimal fuel, and ammo load as well as the lighter armament. It also depends on what altitude, and speed you're talking about. The 2C version was faster than the Zero, but it wasn't tropicalized. The Zero has a better power to weight ratio, and almost 8 lbs. lower wing loading, though at over 300 mph the Zero's controls get pretty stiff.The Hurricane, if it carried two or four less MGs could outmaneuver the Zero. It's turn was nearly as good and it's climb was only slightly worse. This was outlined in a memoire by a Hurricane pilot who served in Singapore and Sumatra, against the Japanese.
To a degree yes don’t get me wrong the Spit and the Hurri are very good airframe, but the turning is over hyped to a degree the majority of pilots didn't really push it due to warnings in the pilots notes, no fuel injectors that was fixed partially due to a washer but it suffered from cutouts without it which caused issues in a dog fight, limited ammo capacity of .303 which effected combat endurance as well, lack of a cannon which the pilots cried for, lack of a variable pitched propellor which effected climbing and menvuerbility, indeed mk1 had a lot of flaws the potential was there but it needed polish but compared to the 109 and it's successor the Spit had a great deal of room to get better and better and what could be fixed in the BoB was.Sure, no fighter is invincible, but in a turning, or climbing contest it was tough to beat. Are you saying the Spitfire Mk I was overhyped? The RAF claims are heavily exaggerated in the BoB. On one day they claimed they shootdown 175 German aircraft. The real number was I think 75 on the worst day of the battle. Hard to understand when most of the enemy aircraft were crashing in England. Just count the wrecks.
Hi Merrick, no London hasn't signed off Operation Betty, Matador or any other enterprise that results in violating Thai neutrality. However should the Japanese occupy any part of eastern Thailand, then Lord Gort and co won't have any problem landing troops on Phuket, western Thailand, to help evacuate British and Australian tin miners and their families. Oh, and if an Italian merchant ship or two gets snapped up, well all the better!Interesting little plan there. One question - has London signed off on it?
OTL, the problem with Matador and related operations (apart from the inadequate force available) was that violating Thai neutrality - or even looking like you were planning to violate it - was a political no-no of the highest order until it was confirmed that Japanese military units were operating in/from Thailand, which in practice was always going to be 24 hours too late.
Giving the pro-Japan faction in Thailand the excuse to throw their armed support to the Japanese, not mention headlines (particularly in US papers) along the lines of "Britain launches invasion of Thailand, Japan declares support for fellow Asians" were regarded as likely to do more harm than any cross-border operation that could be mounted would do good.
Hi patch_g, thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure how long the timeline will run for, at least until March 1942, but its very dependant on how things pan out for me, If I can't save Singapore, things could be over by then.Have read through this fascinating timeline and waiting for more with anticipation.
Also, query for the author:
Do you have a set finish date and general plan of how this timeline will run?
In OTL there were a few units, notably the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, who were trained and clued up for jungle warfare, and who did fight effectively against the Japanese.They are just working out tactics to fight in Jungle ( which they did not do OTL ). They are not trying to counter specific Japanese tactics, which they don't know, just what their own troops have found they can do. So they know you can infiltrate, they know that holding a solid line is all but impossible due to lack of line of sight etc and they are training to counter that. Its not rocket science, its not countering unknown tactics, its just simply not being complacent as they were OTL.
Aye and when it came to it they got thrown into the fire more often as well because of this, the CO who trained them Ian Stewart was considered a crank but his training for them to operate in extreme and hostile environments meant they fought more effectively and could have live longer.In OTL there were a few units, notably the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, who were trained and clued up for jungle warfare, and who did fight effectively against the Japanese.
There weren't enough of them, which may have been fixed iTTL.
But jungle training did exist, and was effective against the Japanese, in the Malaya campaign.
Just not enough of it.
If all units in Malaya had been led with the same foresight and imagination that Brigadier Stewart showed in the training of his battalion, the story of the campaign might have been different. It was the realization of this that led me to order Brigadier Stewart's return to India...to impart his knowledge and ideas to units preparing for the return match with the Japanese.
Possibly the RAF might have learned about the vulnerability of Japanese warplanes to fire by reports coming out of China. But yes, it does seem like quite an unlikely stretch. There were 303 incendiary ammunition in use with the RAF in Britain. Whether there was any shipped out to Singapore in OTL I don't know.That's a very good point, but how would the RAF come to that conclusion before the shooting started, it's obvious with hindsight, but back then?
And did they subsequently deploy incendiary rounds OTL
I can't remember if they were sent MkIIA or MkIIB , I mean MkIIA has a better engine set-up however I think they got the MkIIB which has a alightly better armament and the improvements of the 2a. Though I'd really want some cannon-armed fighters since given the relatively light construction on Japanese Fighters and Bombers they could get torn to pieces by some canon-armed fighters.Possibly the RAF might have learned about the vulnerability of Japanese warplanes to fire by reports coming out of China. But yes, it does seem like quite an unlikely stretch. There were 303 incendiary ammunition in use with the RAF in Britain. Whether there was any shipped out to Singapore in OTL I don't know.
Hi stubear, so am I, and I'm writing the timeline!I am really enjoying this thread, and I am learning a lot from all the posts.
Thank you
AndPossibly the RAF might have learned about the vulnerability of Japanese warplanes to fire by reports coming out of China. But yes, it does seem like quite an unlikely stretch. There were 303 incendiary ammunition in use with the RAF in Britain. Whether there was any shipped out to Singapore in OTL I don't know.
I'm not sure the incendiary rounds are such a big miss, the Hurricane packs a big enough punch for the Japanese fighters anyway, what's more difficult is hitting them, given such a manoeuvrable aircraft in the hands of an experienced pilot.I can't remember if they were sent MkIIA or MkIIB , I mean MkIIA has a better engine set-up however I think they got the MkIIB which has a alightly better armament and the improvements of the 2a. Though I'd really want some cannon-armed fighters since given the relatively light construction on Japanese Fighters and Bombers they could get torn to pieces by some canon-armed fighters.
The .303 incendiary would do a number on the enemy but the problem is getting in in quantity, there maybe lines in Australia to produce this type of ammunition but not sure.
Though I'm not really an expert in air war.
If you're building a radar network lots of people have to know it's a radar network. A Japanese spy seeing the kind of aerials being built would have to know they're not radio towers. Having inside information on air ground Leason would tell them it's a radar network. You don't build a supporting military camp with Commnications systems around a radio tower. The Japanese would know the British were building a radar network. Understanding that flying in at a lower altitude to cut down on warning time is a simple concept. To be in the radar shadow of a mountain you don't have to fly at treetop level, you just have to fly on the other side of the mountain.There are a significant number of differences between the Japanese and British application of radar and fighter forces, that go back to pre war. All though Britain and Japan are very similar nations being islands of the coast of a continent, filled with tea drinking hard working people, their geography, history and culture are very different. However up until the First World War their relationship was basically friendly, and it was a combination of Japanese resentment at what it saw was its exclusion from the opportunities to develop an Empire of its own, and American anti colonialism that saw the friendship degenerate. In addition Britain had seen its splendid isolation evaporated during WWI, as for the first time in a long time its cities were subjected to attacks. The primitive German air attacks, which were ineffectual on a material level, were however very effective morally. Thus Britain which had relied on its wooden walls the Royal Navy for its defence, now had to take into consideration a totally new threat, that of air assault. And so after the initial post war holiday, work was undertaken to deal with this threat. Various reviews in the early twenties saw the establishment of the Observer Corps in 1925, to monitor and report on air raids. Extensive work was carried out on methods to detect aircraft before they were in visual range, including research into sound detection and infrared systems. Research into a death ray, led to the rediscovery of the principal of radar, and its subsequent development in Britain.
Japan however hadn’t been subjected to any air attacks, and facing due to a number of factors, little chance of being so, distance from China and lack of Chinese technological capability. Didn’t prioritise this field of research, and being a much more controlled society didn’t develop the extensive amateur wireless/radio community that Britain did. This was also a problem for Germany which once the Nazis were in power, effectively shut down their amateur wireless/radio system. Germany and Japan, also regarded the experts as being less important than the front line officers. By the outbreak of WWII, Britain had the most sophisticated air defence system in the world, this despite the Germans having better radar. The German radar was far in advance of the basic British primitive lash up system. But an air defence system is made up of two parts, the hardware and the software, and while the Germans hardware was mostly better than the British, their software was virtually non existent until 1941. By the outbreak of the war, the British had developed the Dowding system, which made best use of the hardware available, and was the major factor in the relative success of the British in the BoB. And while the system that has been established in Singapore and Malaya, is yet another glorious British lash up. It is under the command of a man Park who commanded the most attacked sector of Britain during the BoB, and has managed to fill his present command with men who like him have seen action. Note the pilots in his fighter squadrons all though green, will have had more than six hours instruction, and are being led by men who have fought before.
The Japanese who neglected the development of radar, having received information from the Germans, and from their own agents in Europe, are now beginning to investigate. However they are very dependent on the Germans, and the Germans have a number of problems themselves. While there is no doubt that their radar systems are far superior to the British, and having examined captured British radar sets during the fall of France. They know just how primitive British radar is in comparison to theirs, they still don’t have an understanding of just how superior the British software is. And given the distance between Germany and Japan, there is little chance of the Germans being able to send a team of experts to assist the Japanese in their radar project. Remember this is pre war Japan, not the post war Japan that became an electronics powerhouse, unlike Britain, America, France or Germany, it has a very underdeveloped electronics industry. And unlike the Anglo American alliance, which was in place prior to American entry into the war, which shared a tremendous amount of information, the Germans were reluctant to share information with either the Italians or the Japanese. Yes the Japanese have an extensive spy network in Malaya and Singapore, but unless it is intellectually directed, and is able to gain insider information on the system being developed, all it can do is report that a radio/wireless site has been established at position X. And unless the signor officers listen to their junior intelligence officers, and have some understanding of what they are being told, the majority of the information that has been gathered will just end up buried in a filling cabinet.
There has been some discussion about the ability of the Japanese to conduct bombing missions against the British, without the British being able to do much about them. This has included sending the bombers through the central spine of Malaya, using the terrain to mask their approach. However I would postulate that such an attack during this period in time, would impossible. Without terrain following radar, and collision avoidance radar, trying to use the terrain to mask their approach, would see numerous aircraft having an encounter with a rock filled cloud. The standard practice at this time, if you were going to send a bomber formation through mountains, you send them over the top of the highest mountain with a thousand feet at least clearance. And if there are clouds around you would like to send them over the top of the clouds, that’s if your bombers have an oxygen delivery system fitted. Given the distances involved, it is doubtful that any of the initial attacks on Singapore will have fighter escorts. And providing that alongside the radar system, a radio monitoring system and observer capability has been developed. The fighter aircraft will have the time to respond to any attack and take off with sufficient time to reach an altitude higher than the attacking aircraft. In addition given the limited number of routes available for the attackers to return, additional fighters deployed along the route, will be able to be launched to attack the returning attackers. This isn’t Britain, were the retreating German aircraft were able to retire across the channel and be under the protection of their own forces. Any retiring Japanese aircraft have a long way to go before they are able to be protected. And if the British are clever, they will launch a long range twin engine aircraft to follow the Japanese formation, broadcasting its position, until it becomes too dangerous to carry on.
RR.