could ship in the needed crew from the netherlands proper with the metaknowledge from said time machine presumably. also by this point they're co belligerents with the UK.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
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@Fatboy Coxy
here is a list that might help you with the Dutch fleet:
| CL De Ruyter | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| CL Java | Patrolling in the Gulf Of Siam | Netherlands |
| CL Tromp | Patrolling in the area of Natuna - Badas Islands | Netherlands |
| CL Sumatra | Surabaya Not In Commission | Netherlands |
| DD Van Ness | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Banckert | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Kortenaer | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Piet Hein | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Evertson | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Van Ghent | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| DD Witte De With | Unmanned at Tarakan, Borneo. Crew Of Van Ghent was Transferred to Witte De With December 15 after Van Ghent Ran Aground And Lost | Netherlands |
| SS K-8 | Surabaya Refitting | Netherlands |
| SS K-9 | Surabaya Non operational Was Put back In Service February 1942 | Netherlands |
| SS K-10 | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| SS K-11 | Patrolling in the area of Natuna - Badas Islands | Netherlands |
| SS K-12 | Patrolling in the area of Natuna - Badas Islands | Netherlands |
| SS K-13 | Patrolling in the area of Natuna - Badas Islands | Netherlands |
| SS K-14 | Patrolling in the Banda Sea | Netherlands |
| SS K-15 | Patrolling in the Banda Sea | Netherlands |
| SS K-16 | Patrolling in the Banda Sea | Netherlands |
| SS K-17 | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| SS K-18 | Surabaya | Netherlands |
| SS O-16 | Patrolling in the Gulf Of Siam | Netherlands |
| SS O-17 | Patrolling in the Gulf Of Siam | Netherlands |
| SS O-19 | Patrolling in the Karimata Strait | Netherlands |
| SS O-20 | Patrolling in the Karimata Strait | Netherlands |
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Errolwi
Monthly Donor
I'm sure it is an instructor putting on a morale-raising show for the Volksraad!
Thanks, it's actually I while since I've seen that one display. I have seen another ex-NEIAF example more recently, but that is in a pure silver scheme rather than 1940 markings.
Sure- I found an a piece by Baugher laying out a timeline.
Dutch Gov’t in Exile placed order for DB-7Cs in OCT 41 with expected delivery date of MAY 42.
24 DEC 41 US and UK divert DB-7Bs to NEI to get aircraft there earliee
I couldn’t pin down when exactly they arrived, but one was confirmed captured and tested by the Japanese and the survivors sent on to the RAAF.
Apparently a wreck was recovered post-war in New Guinea with the ML-KNIL markings overpainted with RAAF roundels!
Hopefully this is helpful.
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The above entry is very much mistaken. If Witte de With would have been unmanned it would certainly not be at Tarakan but at Surabaya or - maybe - Tandjong Priok (Batavia). Also, the Van Ghent was not lost on December 15th but on Januari 15th. The Van Ghen was unmanned at Surabaya because it was being retrofitted.
Would love to have the source, out of interest
EDIT: Spotted the source!
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Yep. Not what I used, but a more updated version attached below.The above entry is very much mistaken. If Witte de With would have been unmanned it would certainly not be at Tarakan but at Surabaya or - maybe - Tandjong Priok (Batavia). Also, the Van Ghent was not lost on December 15th but on Januari 15th. The Van Ghen was unmanned at Surabaya because it was being retrofitted.
Would love to have the source, out of interest
EDIT: Spotted the source!
Also gives an arrival date in Tjilatjap for the first 6 of 32 diverted DB-7Bs of 27 FEB 42. The Japanese captured the town a little over a week later. One of the 6 was assembled. Apparently the USAAF was given four of the remaining 26, with the RAAF given the remaining 22.
Would love to have the source, out of interest
EDIT: Spotted the source!
Sorry for the double tap on the source!
I‘ve got a soft spot for some of the less idolized designs that served effectively and for longer than expected, if not in the roles envisaged. The A-20, Wellington, P-40, Hudson, Storch, etc.
Driftless
Donor
Yup, for sentimental appreciation to those planes you've listed plus P-36, Maryland, CW-21 Demon, Skua, Bloch MB-174 (and others) for me. Planes that might have made a somewhat bigger contribution in a somewhat different time frame. Not the "star' out front, but the chorus line dancers in back.
The P-36 seems to fall off the radar, maybe because it only had a single day of combat in US service. its contribution in both sides of the war in multiple theaters gets scant mention. Ironically the Maryland was evaluated and passed on in favor of (drumroll) the DB-7.
Driftless
Donor
That late 30's, very early 40's saw such a rapid development of aviation technology that a plane that was genuinely "hot stuff" in 1938 should have been scrapped by 1941, but depending on theater, desperate need overwhelmed woulda-coulda-shoulda.....
Hi Logan2879, thank you for this, but it has a few major mistakes, which makes me question its use a source.
As HJ Tulp pointed out The destroyer HNLMS Van Nes was in Surabaya undergoing a refit, while the destroyer HNLMS Witte de With was at sea with the cruiser HNLMS De Ruyter. Also, I believe the cruiser HNLMS Java was on her way to Singapore, via the Sunda Strait, and thankfully not in the Gulf of Siam!The above entry is very much mistaken. If Witte de With would have been unmanned it would certainly not be at Tarakan but at Surabaya or - maybe - Tandjong Priok (Batavia). Also, the Van Ghent was not lost on December 15th but on Januari 15th. The Van Ghen was unmanned at Surabaya because it was being retrofitted.
Would love to have the source, out of interest
EDIT: Spotted the source!
and
Hi Amir and Driftless, well you should hear about the P-40, and the Hudson, and a bit about the CW-21 and P-36, which the Dutch were flying. Maybe we'll get a A20 or a Wellington in a story, but unless its a North Africa story, I can't see a Storch putting in an appearance. But lets show some love to the Vickers Vildebeest which will be in a number of stories, the Brewster Buffalo, Bristol Blenheim, and with an historical change, the Fairey Battle, these babies need love too!
MWI 41082005 The Rats Of Tobruk
1941, Wednesday 20 August;
The signal lamp winked out a jaunty message of mission complete, time to head home, to one to the two light cruisers, HMS Ajax, with Rear Admiral H B Rawlings aboard, the other, HMS Neptune, further seaward, as the ship shuddered, its engines responding to the request for more speed. HMS Latona, a newly built minelayer of the Abdiel Class, just commissioned in May, began her turn eastwards towards Alexandria, the battered port of Tobruk already lost in the black ink night behind her. Racing along with her were the three destroyers, HMS Kingston, HMS Kipling and HMAS Nizam, who had also made the trip in, and were just as heavily laden with troops from the Tobruk Garrison.
For over four months now, troops of the Australian 9th Division, under Lt Gen Leslie Morshead, known to his men as ‘Ming the Merciless’, had held the town against repeated German and Italian assaults, as well as coming under numerous air attacks. But growing concerns for the safety of the division, as well as the welfare of its men, had seen calls from the Australians for its relief. Two attempts on land to relieve it, operations, Brevity and Battleaxe had failed, a third attempt would be several months more in the coming. The Australians wouldn’t wait, and so the British High Command had devised a plan to replace the division with the British 70th Division, which was the British 6th, renamed to confusion German Intelligence about troop deployment, along with supporting units, including a Polish Brigade and a Czechoslovak infantry battalion, all by sea.
It was called Operation Treacle, and required fast warships to make quick passages during moonless periods, a three-day turnaround, to minimalise the expected air attacks on the ships. The first set of runs had begun yesterday with these ships, and would continue for ten days, planning to replace the whole 18th Australian Infantry Brigade, and supporting troops with the Polish Carpathian Brigade. A second set of runs would happen in September, a third in October and the last lot in November.
Losses in men would turn out to be quite light, indeed the operation was an outstanding success, but there was a price to pay and the Royal Navy paid it. Keeping Tobruk supplied, as well as the renewal of its garrison, cost the Royal Navy dearly, in 66 days’ time, Latona would be sunk, bombed by a Stuka, while two destroyers, three sloops and twenty other ships would also be lost, with another seven destroyers and many other ships damaged, totalling, 62 ships lost or damaged. Because of these losses, the redeployment slipped slightly, and the Australian 2/13 battalion, along with two companies of the 2/15 battalion had to remain, serving under the command of recently promoted Maj Gen Ronald Scobie, who took over the Tobruk garrison from Morshead.
But all of that was quite immaterial to Lt Reginald Thompson, or Thommo, as his friends called him. Wounded the night before by rock fragments, when an Italian grenade exploded close by, while he was out leading a platoon patrol, he was one of the first to be evacuated. The Polish 1st Battalion had disembarked off Latona, in less than 30 minutes, and quickly they began to embark a number of sick, and the wounded, who could travel, Thommo, with them, followed by a mis-mash of Australian 18th Brigade support units. After them, the remnants of the 1st King’s Dragoon Guards and the 3rd Kings Own Hussars aboard. These men had been part of the cadre of the British 3rd Armoured Brigade refitting in Tobruk, when the siege started. About 90 minutes after she came alongside the cleverly camouflaged jetty, Latona pulled away, with Thommo laying on a bunk bed, his body unfamiliarly swaying to the motion of a boat at sea, being lulled into sleep.
The signal lamp winked out a jaunty message of mission complete, time to head home, to one to the two light cruisers, HMS Ajax, with Rear Admiral H B Rawlings aboard, the other, HMS Neptune, further seaward, as the ship shuddered, its engines responding to the request for more speed. HMS Latona, a newly built minelayer of the Abdiel Class, just commissioned in May, began her turn eastwards towards Alexandria, the battered port of Tobruk already lost in the black ink night behind her. Racing along with her were the three destroyers, HMS Kingston, HMS Kipling and HMAS Nizam, who had also made the trip in, and were just as heavily laden with troops from the Tobruk Garrison.
For over four months now, troops of the Australian 9th Division, under Lt Gen Leslie Morshead, known to his men as ‘Ming the Merciless’, had held the town against repeated German and Italian assaults, as well as coming under numerous air attacks. But growing concerns for the safety of the division, as well as the welfare of its men, had seen calls from the Australians for its relief. Two attempts on land to relieve it, operations, Brevity and Battleaxe had failed, a third attempt would be several months more in the coming. The Australians wouldn’t wait, and so the British High Command had devised a plan to replace the division with the British 70th Division, which was the British 6th, renamed to confusion German Intelligence about troop deployment, along with supporting units, including a Polish Brigade and a Czechoslovak infantry battalion, all by sea.
It was called Operation Treacle, and required fast warships to make quick passages during moonless periods, a three-day turnaround, to minimalise the expected air attacks on the ships. The first set of runs had begun yesterday with these ships, and would continue for ten days, planning to replace the whole 18th Australian Infantry Brigade, and supporting troops with the Polish Carpathian Brigade. A second set of runs would happen in September, a third in October and the last lot in November.
Losses in men would turn out to be quite light, indeed the operation was an outstanding success, but there was a price to pay and the Royal Navy paid it. Keeping Tobruk supplied, as well as the renewal of its garrison, cost the Royal Navy dearly, in 66 days’ time, Latona would be sunk, bombed by a Stuka, while two destroyers, three sloops and twenty other ships would also be lost, with another seven destroyers and many other ships damaged, totalling, 62 ships lost or damaged. Because of these losses, the redeployment slipped slightly, and the Australian 2/13 battalion, along with two companies of the 2/15 battalion had to remain, serving under the command of recently promoted Maj Gen Ronald Scobie, who took over the Tobruk garrison from Morshead.
But all of that was quite immaterial to Lt Reginald Thompson, or Thommo, as his friends called him. Wounded the night before by rock fragments, when an Italian grenade exploded close by, while he was out leading a platoon patrol, he was one of the first to be evacuated. The Polish 1st Battalion had disembarked off Latona, in less than 30 minutes, and quickly they began to embark a number of sick, and the wounded, who could travel, Thommo, with them, followed by a mis-mash of Australian 18th Brigade support units. After them, the remnants of the 1st King’s Dragoon Guards and the 3rd Kings Own Hussars aboard. These men had been part of the cadre of the British 3rd Armoured Brigade refitting in Tobruk, when the siege started. About 90 minutes after she came alongside the cleverly camouflaged jetty, Latona pulled away, with Thommo laying on a bunk bed, his body unfamiliarly swaying to the motion of a boat at sea, being lulled into sleep.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Blamey: "Australia is an independent nation. She came into the war under certain definite agreements. Now, gentleman, in the name of my Government, I demand the relief of these troops."
The Far East is always going to be a low prioirty for aircraft until the Japanese get frisky. As this story has fantastically shown, it's all about odds ans sods being pressed into service. I therefore feel it quit possible and fitting for TTL if during the desert fighting a storch or 3 got captured by the British and one ends up being sent to Malaya as surplus to requirments and pressed into service as an army cooperation aircraft. 😉
Driftless
Donor
Oh, could be... though I'd bet a Storch would be more likely to be farmed out for SOE clandestine use in Europe or North Afr. By comparison, there were several He.115 floatplanes in Norwegian service in early 1940. A few made their way to Britain following the invasion of Norway and were put to use for undercover trips to occupied Europe.
Its interesting how things might have gone in the Middle East for both Australian and New Zealand formations. Recovering from the bruising adventures of Greece and Crete, and keen to keep control of their forces in the theatre, united under their own commands, Blamey, supported by both the New Zealand and Australian governments, suggested two Corps Commands be created, the ANZAC Corps, with the New Zealand Division and the 6th Australian Division, commanded by Freyberg, and the Australian Corps, with the 7th and 9th Australian Divisions, commanded by Lavarack.
But more pressing was the need to get Australian units back under Australian Commands. The Australian 7th Division's Cavalry Regiment had been sent to Cyprus, as part of the British garrison, without either Blamey or the Australian Governments knowledge or approval.
Furthermore Blamey complained about a further 10 AIF units not serving under Australian command, not counting those in Tobruk. The British cavalier approach to deploying Australian units was going to have consequences later when Japan attacked, and the Australian homelands were threatened.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
I didn't think Blamey suggested Freyberg, rather NZ said that as Blamey had commanded an AU and the NZ Div in Greece, it was obviously Freyberg's turn. The AU Government seems to have got a bit quiet after that...
The NZ Division went to Greece because the NZ Govt (at Freyberg's insistence) said it wasn't allowed to be deployed until the Brigade slice that had been diverted to the UK in May 1940 joined them in the Middle East. So the Div ended up going on to the transports to Greece a few days after the "2nd Echelon" arrived in Egypt.
The NZ Division went to Greece because the NZ Govt (at Freyberg's insistence) said it wasn't allowed to be deployed until the Brigade slice that had been diverted to the UK in May 1940 joined them in the Middle East. So the Div ended up going on to the transports to Greece a few days after the "2nd Echelon" arrived in Egypt.
Hi Errolwi, yes I think I've got that slightly wrong, the Australian official history, which I'm taking this from quotes
"The policy of concentrating the A.I.F. into one force had been complicated by another development. In March, after the composition of the expeditionary force for Greece had been determined, Mr Menzies proposed that the 6th and 7th Australian Divisions and the New Zealand Division , all allocated to the expedition, should be formed into an Anzac Corps . The suggestion was not immediately adopted; but, when the campaign in Greece brought the 6th Australian Division and the New Zealand Division together under the command of Blarney's I Australian Corps, the corps was renamed "Anzac Corps" . The conclusion of that campaign and the piecemeal evacuation of the force from Greece dispersed the formation and dissolved the organisation ; but then consideration was given to re - establishing the Anzac Corps as soon as regrouping became possible . On 8th May the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs informed the Australian and New Zealand Governments that General Wavell had welcomed the suggestion that, on being re-equipped, the 6th Australian Division and the New Zealand Division should again be formed into an Anzac Corps ; the British Government, he said, favoured the proposal and Wavell recommended that General Freyberg should command the corps. Mr Fadden, the Acting Prime Minister of Australia, telegraphed the proposal to General Blarney but pointed out that, on 18th April, the Government had telegraphed the Dominions Office asking that " subject to over-riding circumstances " the Australian troops should be reassembled as a complete corps under Blarney's command . He commented : The proposal now made would result in a splitting of the Australian force. The 6th Division would, with the New Zealand Division, have the right to be termed Anzacs which they so nobly earned in Greece together . . . but the 7th and 9th Divisions would presumably be excluded from this privilege, which may cause some heart-burning . He sought Blarney's recommendations both on the reconstitution of the corps and on the appointment of General Freyberg to command it .
Blarney replied that efforts were being made in the Middle East to bring about a more permanent grouping of higher commands: the tentative proposals contemplated one corps headquarters generally for each two infantry divisions. He was strongly of the opinion that to group the three Australian divisions and one New Zealand division in two corps would strengthen their fighting value . He recommended that the 6th Division and the New Zealand Division should be grouped together as Anzac Corps; if this were agreed to, he would recommend that the 7th and 9th Divisions should form Australian Corps when they could be released from the Western Desert. He recommended that General Freyberg, "a bold, skilful and tireless commander", should command Anzac Corps, General Lavarack Australian Corps".