Malaya What If

[Ramp-Rat]

I read of a similar example years ago in regards to Germany forces during a NATO exercise, a German armoured brigade was ordered by a British divisional commander to advance to contact with a defending unit, and deal with them. The German commander ordered his forces to advance to contact, and then enter negotiations with the defending forces. Confusion between British and Americans is common, but add in different races and unless you have a standard dictionary that you use for all communications, you are about to enter a world of confusion. As a young man who was backpacking around New Zealand, I encountered a young British couple who had taken an extended stopover in LA on their way to NZ. While there they had taken a tour bus to see the sights, and as they lady was exiting the bus the driver said “ cute fanny” only to receive a resounding slap around his face. The husband quickly intervened and asked the driver what he said, and being more switch on, informed the driver to never say that again to a British woman, as fanny meant something completely different in English English, to what it meant in American English. As was the driver was lucky to not get his lights punched out, had the husband not been switched on to the difference, a lot of Brits would have gone completely ape shit.

RR.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Interesting squadron, the Tromp, although small and comparatively slow for a light cruiser, especially when compared to the E class like Enterprise which were very speedy ships for their time, the Tromp has by far the superior AA fit thanks to her Hazemere triaxially stabilized mounts for her 40mm Bofors guns. And moving the Enterprise into the ABDA command region adds some more power there as well as some more admittedly small Destroyers. The Hermes is a big one though, her refit should turn her into a useful little carrier that can at least provide some local defence and scouting with a limited strike capability.

Hi Steamboy, you didn't mention HMS Emerald by name, nor talk about her 16 torpedo tubes, come on show her a little bit of love! 😞

 

[Driftless]

A thousand years ago, in the days of my youth, I was part of a group of US college students in London. One of the local British lads had cozied up to one of the girls in our group, but brought everything to a screeching halt when he (thought) he politely asked if he could "Come around and knock her up sometime soon." American idiom at least for that time equated "knocking her up" with making her pregnant. That innocent misunderstanding of common language nearly ended in a fist fight, but cooler minds prevailed and the language quirks were soon resolved.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Congrats, I hope you both had a good time !🍻

Thank you Parma, we did!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

That is how many Europeans/Indo's saw it indeed, as their homeland

Hi Parma, am I right in thinking there was that very difference between the officials in the Dutch East Indies and the Dutch Government in exile in London

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

The formation of a joint naval force earlier than it was IOTL, will pay .enormous dividends ITTL. And should avoid the major mistakes that occurred IOTL, that led to the series of disasters that occurred with the ABD command during the campaign in the Java Sea after the fall of Singapore. Although if the Time Line basically follows the one of Time Line, there will only be just over a month to implement the changes required by the formation of this combined command, or more likely two months. As has already been said the principal advantage will come from the chance to sort out the problems with inter communication between the various forces involved. While two of the Navies involved are reputed to speak the same language, which to a degree they don’t, as numerous words have different meanings in British to what they do in American. There are also major differences in the communication protocols and procedures, between the three navies, and the problem that the British frequently made use of biblical quotes and Latin in their messages. One of the first things to establish is a single protocol for radio messages, and a universal code which is to be used by all three navies. While each Navy can use their own code to communicate with their own Headquarters, especially for administrative messages, they do need to be able to communicate with each other and each others Headquarters in one universal code. There is also the problem that the Dutch speak a completely different language to the others, and it will require the posting of bi lingual personal to the British and American ships and Headquarters. With luck the three navies will by the outbreak of hostilities have done enough work on integrating their communications systems, to enable their forces to cooperate successfully.

RR.

Hi Ramp-Rat, only the British and Dutch have this improved relationship, the Americans are still being very cagy about commitment!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

The classic communications misunderstanding between American and British forces has to be the Imjin River and the defence of the glorious Glosters - essentially the British reported that things were 'a bit dicey' i.e being assaulted by multiple Chinese divisions and about to be overrun but interpreted as - tricky but holding on nothing to worry about!

Possibly a trifle unfair on both sides but as clear a picture as ever of two allied forces separated by a common language!

Hi Admiral Jellicoe, yes you're right, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_understatement

I quite like that expression, things a re a bit sticky at the moment, I'll stick it in another story later down the road, I think!

 

[general]

Not just between nationalities! I remember an exercise decades ago. We were defending an air base. The "enemy" tried an entebbe style raid. A C 130 landed and out drove some landrovers fitted with machine guns, intent being to race down the flight line to strafe the fighters.
Unfortunately for them, our C.O. had just moved our MG platoon, resulting in the raiders driving straight into massed machine gun fire. At the finish, the C.O. ordered a platoon to "sweep" the runway, which for us meant patrol along to make sure no one was hiding out. To our surprise, the RAAF said not to bother, they would do it. Five minutes later, we heard the street sweepers start!

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Sir I assume that the principal difference between the Anglo American, and the Anglo Dutch relationship, let alone the Dutch American. Goes back to the pre war period if not longer, as the British, Dutch, French and Portuguese had by the inter war era sorted out their differences. Where as the Americans had a number of problems with the other four, and internally with the subject of relations with other nations. Internally the majority of Americans were apposed to agreements between America and other powers, especially if they involved the military. On the military front, America was never happy to take second place, and was insistent that they were not willing to be under the command of foreigners. In the this situation were as London was calling the shots for both the British and the Dutch, and the call was to cooperate. The Americans will be getting conflicting signals from Washington, and have the additional problem that one of the local commanders is against cooperation unless it’s on his terms.

RR.

Hi Ramp-Rat, only the British and Dutch have this improved relationship, the Americans are still being very cagy about commitment!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Sir I assume that the principal difference between the Anglo American, and the Anglo Dutch relationship, let alone the Dutch American. Goes back to the pre war period if not longer, as the British, Dutch, French and Portuguese had by the inter war era sorted out their differences. Where as the Americans had a number of problems with the other four, and internally with the subject of relations with other nations. Internally the majority of Americans were apposed to agreements between America and other powers, especially if they involved the military. On the military front, America was never happy to take second place, and was insistent that they were not willing to be under the command of foreigners. In the this situation were as London was calling the shots for both the British and the Dutch, and the call was to cooperate. The Americans will be getting conflicting signals from Washington, and have the additional problem that one of the local commanders is against cooperation unless it’s on his terms.

RR.

Hi Ramp-Rat, yes, we're talking about the American isolationism of the interwar years, and Roosevelt's careful wooing of his general public to come around from that and take a major role on the worlds stage. If he was allowed, I think Admiral Thomas Hart would be much more involved in closer co-operation with the British and Dutch.

 

[Parma]

Hi Parma, am I right in thinking there was that very difference between the officials in the Dutch East Indies and the Dutch Government in exile in London

Yes. The Dutch "war cabinet" in exile, who came in charge after domestic infight in August 1939 was led by Mr De Geer as Prime Minister.

Other Cabinets during the 30ties were led by Mr. Colijn, a controversial but capable and very worldly man.
He had strong ties with the Dutch East Indies. First, as a young officer he was deeply involved in the Atjeh war at the start of the 20th century. Prior to the Great war he became politician and was involved with the attempts to build a Battlefleet and after the Great war the Cruiser/submarine-based fleet plan of 1920/1922 al in order to protect the DEI against Japan.. During the twenties he was CEO of Shell, a company very strong involved in the DEI. And as last he had family, his son and daughter, living in the Dutch East Indies . During his position as PM he orderd the, at that time, state of the art B10 bombers as an attempt to improve the defenses of the DEI.

Mr. De Geer, 70 in 1940, had long political career. He had strong pacifist tendencies and was the main responsible figure for the cancelation of the Dutch fleet plan of 1920/1922. This would give the RNN a fleet roughly double the size of what it had in 1941.

According to people who worked with him he had a world view which ended at the Dutch- German border. More concerning was his out of reality view of Germany and complete absence of interest in the overseas possessions of the Netherlands. His out of reality world view forced him to resign in August 1940 as PM in exile, and he moved in 1941 back to occupied Netherlands! Mr. de Geer was replaced by Mr. Gerbrandy of who I do not know much.

Other members of the Dutch Cabinet in exile did not have much better qualifications.

Mr. Welter was the minister of colonies, who had a career as civil servant in DEI. How ever he opposed the dominion status of the DEI during the 30ties and in exile he was a fan of Petain and was there for regarded as defeatist. He had to resign in 1941.

Mr. Dijxhoorn was, one of the ‘’younger’’ members of the cabinet in exile and was the secretary of Defense. He was a very controversial figure who was responsible for the resignation of the Dutch Commander of the Armed Forces and his Chief of Staf in February 1940. He lost confidence of other members of the cabinet in exile and the Queen and resigned in 1941.

Exception these group of men was the secretary of foreign affairs Mr. Van Kleffens. A very capable diplomat but he refused to become chairman, PM, of the cabinet in exile.

I do think HJ Tulp know much more regarding the Dutch gouvernement in exile.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Bob smoothly crooned on, ending with a little quip about ‘Double Dutch’ as the newsreel finished with a scene of British and Dutch matelot’s huddled together, thumbs up.

This is an anachorism I'm afraid. The term 'Double Dutch' (meaning the use of both a condom and the pill as contraceptives) did only emerge in the '90s.

Furthermore, pressure from the Dutch government in exile, in London, on the need to move into the Allied camp, forced Governor Tjarda van Starkenborgh Stachouwer to make more and more concessions and agreements with the Allies, primarily the British, without any formal guarantee of security. Stachouwer wasn’t anti British, but was greatly concerned over the threat to what both he and many in leadership roles saw as their homeland, and not just a colony.

This could very well have led Tjarda Van Starkenborgh Stachouwer (yes, that's his full last name!) to resign, though I can also imagine his sense of duty to keep himself from that (especially if the Queen would have implored him to stay on).

Hi Parma, am I right in thinking there was that very difference between the officials in the Dutch East Indies and the Dutch Government in exile in London

Somewhat yes. The main difference IMHO was that the government in exile was in essence a political institution and the government of the Dutch East Indies was bureaucratic. The government in exile did have far less career-politicians than was normally the case, but still their first, second and third priority was the liberation of the Netherlands. That is also clear in where it was located. By constitutional law the seat of government could not be outside the Kingdom. In that sense it would have been logical if the government-in-exile would be situated in Batavia as the colonial government suggested. The Queen deemed that too far way from the occupied Netherlands so in London they remained. The government of the Dutch East Indies, on the other hand, was composed out of career bureaucrats who would live in the colony and rise up the ranks of it's colonial government. A significant number of them were born in the Indies and otherwise spend their professional lives their. This was the same in the KNIL and the KM. Even among their ranks was the liberation of the Netherlands paramount but not as all-encompassing as it was for the government in London.

 

[ArtosStark]

This is an anachorism I'm afraid. The term 'Double Dutch' (meaning the use of both a condom and the pill as contraceptives) did only emerge in the '90s.

Before the 90’s Double Dutch could refer to the skipping rope game using two ropes or a language game similar to pig-Latin.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Before the 90’s Double Dutch could refer to the skipping rope game using two ropes or a language game similar to pig-Latin.

Ah man! I even looked it up and stuff before posting

 

[ArtosStark]

Ah man! I even looked it up and stuff before posting

Google is a fickle mistress. 😉.

However, I am not sure if either of the uses I mention would fit into a quip from a British news reader. So it still might be an anachronism.

 

[Mark1878]

Google is a fickle mistress. 😉.

However, I am not sure if either of the uses I mention would fit into a quip from a British news reader. So it still might be an anachronism.

The normal usage for Double Dutch in British English is in the phrase "... is speaking Double Dutch" meaning that they are speaking an incomprehensible foreign language - so not something you want in a diplomatic event.

Collins, Cambridge and Britannica dictionaries give this as mainly British usage and the skipping rope game as US and only the as the two definitions.

An example of the latter Malcolm McClaren's song

(poor quality video)

 

[Driftless]

All of the posts about language translation, even within a common root language (i.e. British English vs American English vs Australian English, etal) are fascinating to me. Add in the quirks of common idiom and the fluttery passage of slang, Diplomats especially would need to be on their toes.

An example that could cause serious problems if not understood by all parties: To "table an agenda item".... (As I understand it,) in British English that means the item is accepted and action is forthcoming on that item. In American English, to "table an item" means no immediate action to be taken, but the item will be reviewed and discussed again at some future date. That difference of common idiomatic definition could have huge impacts if not understood by both sides.

 

[Parma]

This could very well have led Tjarda Van Starkenborgh Stachouwer (yes, that's his full last name!) to resign, though I can also imagine his sense of duty to keep himself from that (especially if the Queen would have implored him to stay on).

A very capable, sucseesor would be Hubertus van Mook. Born and bred in Indonesia. Member of the ‘’Volksraad”.
In 1938, he was an negotiator with Japan, resulting in the Van Mook-Kotanu Agreement. From September 1940 to June 1941 he again successfully led negotiations with Japan on trade relations. In October 1940 he received an honorary doctorate in economic sciences from the Law School in Batavia.
On 20 November 1941 he was appointed Minister of the Colonies in the Dutch government in exile in London, but he remained in the Dutch East Indies and his position was held by the Prime Minister until February 1942.

Hubertus van Mook - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again an example of the Dutch/European/Indo colonials living and ruling the Dutch East Indies, like the KNIL and Royal Nehterlands Navy officers G.J. Berenschot, H.J. Ter Poorten and C.E.L. Helfrich who had a stronger connection with Indonesia than with the Netherlands.

Just like to know, was this identification with the colonies like; Malaya, Singapore, Bengalen or India by British colonials also that strong?
In other words did these European and mixed descendant regarded the colonies as their home instead of Great Brittain?

 

[chad]

The Rhodesians I knew certainly did. They had grown up there and it was their home.

 

[HJ Tulp]

The Rhodesians I knew certainly did. They had grown up there and it was their home.

Rhodesia was a settlement colony though, unlike the DEI and Malaya.