Malaya What If

[El Pip]

Unfortunately it was deemed that without a main water main working correctly she was combat ineffective.

I have tried to determine if this issue was really such an issue and if she could have sortied anyway? But I’ve never found a satisfactory answer.

The site I read said it was the "fire main" that was suffering corrosion, if that is the case then the ships is some sense "combat effective" but severely compromised in damage control. I would guess the judgement was that things were not so desperate as to send a ship into combat that would have to be abandoned immediately if any fire broke out.

Another option is HMAS Sydney not forgetting she is a warship and carrying out the search of the raider Kormaron ‘by the book’ and not getting sunk.

However I am not sure if she had radar fitted?

This Link suggests not. She had radio detection facilities, but in the voice radio sense. Her sister the HMAS Hobart did get a radar fit out in a 1942 upgrade so the hull could take it, but they hadn't been fitted at the time.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The site I read said it was the "fire main" that was suffering corrosion, if that is the case then the ships is some sense "combat effective" but severely compromised in damage control. I would guess the judgement was that things were not so desperate as to send a ship into combat that would have to be abandoned immediately if any fire broke out.

This Link suggests not. She had radio detection facilities, but in the voice radio sense. Her sister the HMAS Hobart did get a radar fit out in a 1942 upgrade so the hull could take it, but they hadn't been fitted at the time.

Yes the main fire main system

I am not sure if it was a case of it did not work at all or if it was in pieces when force z sortied?

As for poor old Sydney yes I saw some pictures of her from late 41 and there was no obvious radar.

 

[Belisarius II]

Mauritius was built with an experimental internal degaussing system.

Unfortunately it was found that this system started to corrode her main water main requiring dry docking at Durban and then at Singapore to try and correct.

She ultimately had to return to the UK for it to be rectified.

Unfortunately it was deemed that without a main water main working correctly she was combat ineffective.

I have tried to determine if this issue was really such an issue and if she could have sortied anyway? But I’ve never found a satisfactory answer.

Another option is HMAS Sydney not forgetting she is a warship and carrying out the search of the raider Kormaron ‘by the book’ and not getting sunk.

However I am not sure if she had radar fitted?

A ship without a fire main can sail, but she better not take a hit, or have an accident.

 

[Logan2879]

Also I like to add a couple of destroyers that were damage and could have been repair by the end of November: HMS Iris (at Singapore), HMS Nubian (at Bombay), HMAS Voyager (at Singapore), HMS Ilex (at Aden) and HMAS Vendetta (at Singapore)

 

[Cryhavoc101]

A ship without a fire main can sail, but she better not take a hit, or have an accident.

My understanding is that she was in dock trying to rectify the issues not that it was stopping her from 'serving'.

After all she sailed halfway around the world with the problem - first stopping in South Africa and then to Singapore - so it might not have been the case that the fire main was non operable only that it was corroding and they were trying to fix the problem.

I do wonder if the reason she did not sail with Force Z was not so much the corrosion issue but that she was in dry dock trying to fix it when Force Z sailed?

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi all, apologies for the sabbatical, I went paddling up the channel in a boat and popped into Amsterdam for a Heineken to celebrate my wife's 60th birthday, an event that seems to take a year to celebrate.

Anyway, onwards

Why would they replace pom-poms one for one with Oerlikons? That sounds like a downgrade in both range and firepower. I'd have thought it more likely that they just tried to shoehorn a couple of Oerlikons on as extra guns.

Thank you, The Mole's Revenge, that's a good question, and I would have come back with, well its just what happened historically. Except, checking my notes, I'm very uncomfortable saying that now, given the poor quality of source I have.

Durban was one of the Danae class light cruisers which were completed just after WW1, with an armament of six single mount 6-inch guns, and two 3-inch guns for AA defence. Sometime in the interwar years, all ships of the class had the two 3-inch guns replaced by 4-inch, with a third being added, and the two 2-pdr Pom-Poms added on the bridge wings. OK so far, now my main source is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danae-class_cruiser, which then goes on to say all ships received upgrades, with radar and 20mm Oerlikon guns, early WW2, and this is what I based my upgrade on.

And this is where the problems come, firstly, this is Wikipedia, which is ok for general stuff, but is often found wanting on finer detail. Secondly, all Royal Naval ships received upgrades when and where they could, with what was available, and I'm aware there could be differences between ships of the same class. Thirdly by WW2, the Danae class was strictly second class, so just like the preceding C, alternative uses were being explored, with some undergoing conversion to AA cruisers. And lastly I have no clear idea of Durban's upgrades.

And then The Mole's Revenge question on why would you downgrade from a 40mm to a 20mm, losing range and weight of shell. To answer this, I'd turn to http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_2pounder_m2.php which mentions that the 2 Pdrs were prone to stoppages and jams. I could speculate that possibly it was easier to add more Oerlikon's, they may be an easier install, and keeping to one type of light AA helps with ammunition logistics. To add to my conundrum, I don't think the Royal Navy was overrun with spare 20mm Oerlikon mounts in the autumn of 1941, making the possibility of this change of armament less likely.

Moving forward with this, I've posted a question of what armament HMS Durban carried on a couple of forums, and will listen to what comes back from them, along with what you all might post, and depending on all of that, I might just edit out the light AA upgrade, as this is defiantly not storyline critical.

 

[Logan2879]

Hi all, apologies for the sabbatical, I went paddling up the channel in a boat and popped into Amsterdam for a Heineken to celebrate my wife's 60th birthday, an event that seems to take a year to celebrate.

Anyway, onwards


Thank you, The Mole's Revenge, that's a good question, and I would have come back with, well its just what happened historically. Except, checking my notes, I'm very uncomfortable saying that now, given the poor quality of source I have.

Durban was one of the Danae class light cruisers which were completed just after WW1, with an armament of six single mount 6-inch guns, and two 3-inch guns for AA defence. Sometime in the interwar years, all ships of the class had the two 3-inch guns replaced by 4-inch, with a third being added, and the two 2-pdr Pom-Poms added on the bridge wings. OK so far, now my main source is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danae-class_cruiser, which then goes on to say all ships received upgrades, with radar and 20mm Oerlikon guns, early WW2, and this is what I based my upgrade on.

And this is where the problems come, firstly, this is Wikipedia, which is ok for general stuff, but is often found wanting on finer detail. Secondly, all Royal Naval ships received upgrades when and where they could, with what was available, and I'm aware there could be differences between ships of the same class. Thirdly by WW2, the Danae class was strictly second class, so just like the preceding C, alternative uses were being explored, with some undergoing conversion to AA cruisers. And lastly I have no clear idea of Durban's upgrades.

And then The Mole's Revenge question on why would you downgrade from a 40mm to a 20mm, losing range and weight of shell. To answer this, I'd turn to http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_2pounder_m2.php which mentions that the 2 Pdrs were prone to stoppages and jams. I could speculate that possibly it was easier to add more Oerlikon's, they may be an easier install, and keeping to one type of light AA helps with ammunition logistics. To add to my conundrum, I don't think the Royal Navy was overrun with spare 20mm Oerlikon mounts in the autumn of 1941, making the possibility of this change of armament less likely.

Moving forward with this, I've posted a question of what armament HMS Durban carried on a couple of forums, and will listen to what comes back from them, along with what you all might post, and depending on all of that, I might just edit out the light AA upgrade, as this is defiantly not storyline critical.

this is what the D class cruisers should have been by 1940 ... @Fatboy Coxy

 

[Paul_Sussex]

This site - https://www.world-war.co.uk/ - has always seemed quite good for cruiser and battleship data.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Ok so,

this is what the D class cruisers should have been by 1940 ... @Fatboy Coxy

and

This site - https://www.world-war.co.uk/ - has always seemed quite good for cruiser and battleship data.

Thank you Logan2879 and Paul_Sussex for your help.

One of my forum questions came back, https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/war...ns-carried-by-hms-durban-t48773.html#p1051725
and thanks to Ewen I can confirm that Durban had Oerlikons fitted in April 1942, so I'm going to edit my last post and move on.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Just read through the other posts, I won't be commenting on what ships might be available for Force Z, what ever that might be?

OK, time to get on with the story, so if your all sitting comfortable, I'll continue

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

1941, Monday 29 September;

The stirring music started, introducing another Pathé news reel, before the clipped but jaunty tones of Bob Danvers-Walker began commentating “ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy join the Royal Navy in creating a joint formation called ‘The Light Squadron’ based here in Singapore” as footage ran of the Dutch flag flying high on the mast of a grey warship, then quickly moving on to a scene of a Dutch Commander shaking hands with a British Captain, both in splendid crisp white uniforms. Bob smoothly crooned on, ending with a little quip about ‘Double Dutch’ as the newsreel finished with a scene of British and Dutch matelot’s huddled together, thumbs up.

Earlier in the day HMS Emerald had dropped anchor, safe in the Johore Straits, the Naval Dockyard laying over on the western banks. Her days on convoy escorting and raider hunting in the Indian Ocean were over for now. Today she was becoming the flagship of the newly forming ‘Light Squadron’ an Anglo-Dutch formation, each ally providing one light cruiser and two destroyers. Joining her were the two WW1 vintage destroyers, HMS Scout, coming from the dissolved Force T, Hermes now in a South African dock undergoing a significant rebuild, and HMS Tenedos, having recently transferred from Hong Kong.

Lying close by was HNLMS Tromp, the youngest ship in the Dutch East Indies fleet, a small light cruiser, or destroyer leader, depending on how you wanted to view that. She had arrived a few days earlier from Soerabaja. Also joining, was the destroyer Kortenaer, currently at sea in the Singapore Straits with HMS Thanet and HMS Rover on anti-submarine training, having just completed the fitting of ASDIC here in Singapore. A second Dutch destroyer joining, Piet Hein, the seventh and last Admiralen class in the Dutch East Indies Squadron, was tied to a quayside in the Naval Base, the fitting of her ASDIC only just beginning.

Historically, the Netherlands had chosen a path of strict neutrality, which had served them well in World War One, and the Governor of the Dutch East Indies, which had some degree of political freedom, had faithfully pursued that strategy. Despite the shocked fall of Holland in May 1940, the DEI had tried to continue that policy with regard to Britain, America and Japan. This is explained, in part, the reluctance of the Allies to form a defensive pact with the Colony. The Allies remained suspious that the Dutch would do little for their own defence, relying Allied power to deter Japan, while the Dutch noticed how few resources the Allies allocated to the Far East. The fall of Holland highlighted a need for the East Indies to have a modern credible defend, and numerous orders of military equipment had been placed with the USA. Japan’s insistence on talks with the DEI over increasing oil sales had been met with cancellations of military equipment sales by the US Government, keen to make the point. Furthermore, pressure from the Dutch government in exile, in London, on the need to move into the Allied camp, forced Governor Tjarda van Starkenborgh Stachouwer to make more and more concessions and agreements with the Allies, primarily the British, without any formal guarantee of security. Stachouwer wasn’t anti British, but was greatly concerned over the threat to what both he and many in leadership roles saw as their homeland, and not just a colony.

The British and Dutch had agreed as part of the American, Dutch, and British Conference agreement, held back in April, to working much closer together, and the commitment of some Dutch ships, as well as aircraft, to British commands for the defence of both nations. Both Vice Admiral Layton RN and Vice Admiral Helfrich RNN had fully embraced that agreement, and had driven this new initiative. Along with a British cruiser joining the Dutch fleet, this would ensure a much better working relationship between both Navies. Joining all six ships of the light squadron would be liaison officers, Dutch on the British ships, British on the Dutch ships, who were bilingual, to ensure good communications were kept. In addition, there were small signalling parties attached to each Dutch ship, all ships in the Light Squadron would be working under the British signalling system.

Commanding them would be Captain Francis Flynn, commander of HMS Emerald, who would fly the temporary pennant of Commodore second class. Based out of Singapore, his task was to turn them into a single, well-oiled and functioning command, to be used in the waters of the British Far East Command and the Dutch East Indies. Initially, he would concentrate of general working together, as well as individual ships improving their anti-submarine skills, before, in early November, working them as an offensive fighting formation.

 

[steamboy]

Interesting squadron, the Tromp, although small and comparatively slow for a light cruiser, especially when compared to the E class like Enterprise which were very speedy ships for their time, the Tromp has by far the superior AA fit thanks to her Hazemere triaxially stabilized mounts for her 40mm Bofors guns. And moving the Enterprise into the ABDA command region adds some more power there as well as some more admittedly small Destroyers. The Hermes is a big one though, her refit should turn her into a useful little carrier that can at least provide some local defence and scouting with a limited strike capability.

 

[Driftless]

^^^ To loosely borrow from Professor Tolkien:

“I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me...."​

 

[Butchpfd]

Just finished some research the C class cruisers not refitted as AA cruisers only had 2 single 2lbr quick firing guns, basically a 2lbr machine gun. that was the reason for replacement by 20mm AA guns. the D class were being outfitted with 4 quad .50 cal AAMG and 2 x 4 x 2lbr just before the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Parma]

Hi all, apologies for the sabbatical, I went paddling up the channel in a boat and popped into Amsterdam for a Heineken to celebrate my wife's 60th birthday, an event that seems to take a year to celebrate.

Congrats, I hope you both had a good time !🍻

 

[Parma]

Stachouwer wasn’t anti British, but was greatly concerned over the threat to what both he and many in leadership roles saw as their homeland, and not just a colony.

That is how many Europeans/Indo's saw it indeed, as their homeland

 

[Parma]

Both Vice Admiral Layton RN and Vice Admiral Helfrich RNN had fully embraced that agreement, and had driven this new initiative. Along with a British cruiser joining the Dutch fleet, this would ensure a much better working relationship between both Navies. Joining all six ships of the light squadron would be liaison officers, Dutch on the British ships, British on the Dutch ships, who were bilingual, to ensure good communications were kept. In addition, there were small signalling parties attached to each Dutch ship, all ships in the Light Squadron would be working under the British signalling system.

This is a significant departure of OTL. The early cooperation and emphasis on communication between both navies, will certainly increase the effectiveness of, at least the Naval part, for the defence of the Far East

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Just read through the other posts, I won't be commenting on what ships might be available for Force Z, what ever that might be?

OK, time to get on with the story, so if your all sitting comfortable, I'll continue

Well if you feel that was acceptable….🧐

 

[Ramp-Rat]

The formation of a joint naval force earlier than it was IOTL, will pay .enormous dividends ITTL. And should avoid the major mistakes that occurred IOTL, that led to the series of disasters that occurred with the ABD command during the campaign in the Java Sea after the fall of Singapore. Although if the Time Line basically follows the one of Time Line, there will only be just over a month to implement the changes required by the formation of this combined command, or more likely two months. As has already been said the principal advantage will come from the chance to sort out the problems with inter communication between the various forces involved. While two of the Navies involved are reputed to speak the same language, which to a degree they don’t, as numerous words have different meanings in British to what they do in American. There are also major differences in the communication protocols and procedures, between the three navies, and the problem that the British frequently made use of biblical quotes and Latin in their messages. One of the first things to establish is a single protocol for radio messages, and a universal code which is to be used by all three navies. While each Navy can use their own code to communicate with their own Headquarters, especially for administrative messages, they do need to be able to communicate with each other and each others Headquarters in one universal code. There is also the problem that the Dutch speak a completely different language to the others, and it will require the posting of bi lingual personal to the British and American ships and Headquarters. With luck the three navies will by the outbreak of hostilities have done enough work on integrating their communications systems, to enable their forces to cooperate successfully.

RR.

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

The classic communications misunderstanding between American and British forces has to be the Imjin River and the defence of the glorious Glosters - essentially the British reported that things were 'a bit dicey' i.e being assaulted by multiple Chinese divisions and about to be overrun but interpreted as - tricky but holding on nothing to worry about!

Possibly a trifle unfair on both sides but as clear a picture as ever of two allied forces separated by a common language!