A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)
- Thread starter Geekhis Khan
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Quick question on Waggle Rock, does it have the same multinational gimmick as OTL? That is, different markets replacing Tinker Dan with a local equivalent? (I remember being baffled when I was first introduced to Doc in A Muppet Family Christmas. "Who is this guy? And why does he have the Captain's dog?")
Yes, the "multinational gimmick" was actually the driving force behind the series. Henson didn't just want to have an international audience, he wanted to "end all war" by promoting a sense of international community.
I certainly agree the example of Henson/Disney practical effects for television budgets might encourage the TNG crew to be a little more ambitious with their effects. I understand there's a lot of unofficial collaboration/exchange of ideas between studio effects crews so we might see the Enterprise make some more dramatic maneuvers on screen (the question for me is which will be on the motion-mounting, the ship or the camera?) and some much more interesting aliens.
I'd love to see TNG or DS9 era Trek revisit the Tholians with practical effects, perhaps with a Tholian ambassador in a bulky containment suit not unlike Kosh from Babylon 5.
On a related topic, I wonder if Geekhis Khan has a Disney Sci-Fi series planned for the Disney Channel. The question of "how to compete with Star Trek while remaining distinct" can lead to interesting places. Maybe try to make a series from The Black Hole? Or maybe use elements from Flight of the Navigator? Maybe avoid space altogether a use time travel? Land of the Lost is still in syndication until 1985, maybe Disney could co-produce the early 90's remake?
Well, Micheal Grade is Lew Grade's nephew...and he's controller of BBC 1 at this point assuming it plays out similar to OTL, although his antipathy for the show and science fiction in general is well-documented.
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Just realised that Reboot presumably will not exist ITTL thanks to the Tron series. That will mean Mainframe may not make Beast Wars, and thus we may see a much different Transformers.
Why not? again ideas inspired by it always happened but well, if trully butterfly away, transformer now might take more cues from the japanese anime revival even more than OTL
I got the perfect semi trol answer...Star Wars...Now being serious, when Fox might not like..this is before Fox Channel and FX, plus Disney could afford the SW license(and in the 80's pre shadows of the empire would be cheap)
I wouldn't bother, actually. I credit part of the success of the Who relaunch to the hiatus after the series ended the first time. It's really hard to keep a show popular for a long time, especially if it's already been running for decades (I refer to the problem of letting a show end as 'Star Trek Syndrome' after Voyager kept dragging on). I would support Disney making a show inspired by Doctor Who for their channel though, an hour long all-ages drama that features travel through time and space would certainly set it out from shows like Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica. Perhaps the protagonists are 'unstuck' in reality, forced to chase down unstable time/space portals in order to get back home, like the dimension-hopping premise of Sliders. Maybe it's been done deliberately, which lets you put a series-long antagonist in there, teasing the protagonists along in some terrible game.
Alternately, what do you think the odds are of someone at Disney proposing acquiring the licences to Valérian and Laureline?
No reason Mainframe wouldn't make a different show if Disney takes the 'what happens inside the computer' concept before them. How about this timeline flips things around and Mainframe creates a series about 'what your toys do when you're not there'? That would certainly give them credit and experience to later pick up the Transformers licence when Hasbro shops around for a studio to make an animated series based on their new toy line. Mainframe's greatest strength was their story and character writing, skills that would exist regardless of what their show was actually about.
That's... actually kind of brilliant. Fox/Nelvana produced both Droids and Ewoks in 1985, so it's not like Lucas was against television adaptations. For the purposes of a live-action, hour long show to compete with Star Trek though I'm not sure you could do Star Wars justice on a television budget but I'd love to see the attempt. Brand recognition alone would be a huge coup for Disney, especially since this is right around/after Return of the Jedi closes out the saga on the silver screen.
Notably, this wouldn't be Disney owning Star Wars outright like OTL, just a partnership with Fox and Lucasfilm to make a series.
I didn't say need to be live action....
techically tron is an arcade but yeah both did used the virtual videogame ideas a lot..maybe reboot is more convetional virus busting?
Fair point. I did frame the idea as a Star Trek competitor though, with the expectation of a series with a similar format. To my knowledge the expense of animation has meant there has never been an hour-long animated series of syndication length (though there have been mini-series and television broadcast movies). Not even TTL's Disney Animation Department could keep up with a production schedule equivalent to twelve movies a year (24-26 episodes/season, 40-42 minutes/episode) when they're already doing 1-2 feature films a year as well as shorts for Magical/Wonderful World. It's genuinely cheaper to do it live unless you dramatically reduce animation quality.
I would expect a mid/late 1980's Star Wars series to be a 'side story' to the movies, perhaps centered around a cell of Rebel agents/pilots operating parallel to the events of the films. I would love to see Denis Lawson take center stage and have Wedge Antilles lead Rogue Squadron on screen (this is a decade before the book series is launched), maybe even with Mark Hamill as a regular guest star.
Speaking of animation, there was a proposed Doctor Who cartoon in the 90s to be made in Canada, so there is precedent for a co-production. Perhaps if the live action show gets cancelled as in OTL, Disney might give such an offer to them instead (and they wouldn't get underbid by a British company, because if you're going to Disney, then cheaping out probably isn't going to be your priority).
An interesting alternative might be the live action show getting cancelled in favour of a co-produced cartoon. I don't know if it'd work out cheaper (I seem to recall they filmed a few episodes overseas because JNT felt like a vacation, which probably didn't help keep the budget under control), but who knows, having additional creative voices on board might help stave off the creative stagnation. All of the later classic Doctors have proven in their work for Big Finish IOTL they're quite gifted voice actors too, so perhaps one or more might be willing to sign up for the role (that'd also mean that if you were to do a live-action revival they could reprise their roles). I think Peter Davison's still the Doctor at this point IOTL. I figure Colin Baker would still be a reasonable choice to take over - he was known to the production staff already, having played Commander Maxil in Arc of Infinity, and had a genuine love of the show. If a hypothetical co-production (animated or live) takes place before the handover, perhaps some of the more controversial characterisation decisions (like strangling his companion as one of his very first actions) could be averted.
Also there could even be a live stage show at the park - two stage plays (The Curse of The Daleks & The Seven Keys To Doomsday) had already been written, and IOTL The Ultimate Adventure would be written in 1989 (initially starring Jon Pertwee, and later Colin Baker - who got a slightly more restrained take on his costume for the show). And there was already precedent for non-canonical Doctors playing the role in various productions of Seven Keys (the original starred Trevor Martin, but other productions had other actors - there was even one in New Zealand!). Perhaps whoever plays the Doctor (or more than one, a la Ultimate Adventure) could do a stage show or two at the parks in the off-season...
An interesting alternative might be the live action show getting cancelled in favour of a co-produced cartoon. I don't know if it'd work out cheaper (I seem to recall they filmed a few episodes overseas because JNT felt like a vacation, which probably didn't help keep the budget under control), but who knows, having additional creative voices on board might help stave off the creative stagnation. All of the later classic Doctors have proven in their work for Big Finish IOTL they're quite gifted voice actors too, so perhaps one or more might be willing to sign up for the role (that'd also mean that if you were to do a live-action revival they could reprise their roles). I think Peter Davison's still the Doctor at this point IOTL. I figure Colin Baker would still be a reasonable choice to take over - he was known to the production staff already, having played Commander Maxil in Arc of Infinity, and had a genuine love of the show. If a hypothetical co-production (animated or live) takes place before the handover, perhaps some of the more controversial characterisation decisions (like strangling his companion as one of his very first actions) could be averted.
Also there could even be a live stage show at the park - two stage plays (The Curse of The Daleks & The Seven Keys To Doomsday) had already been written, and IOTL The Ultimate Adventure would be written in 1989 (initially starring Jon Pertwee, and later Colin Baker - who got a slightly more restrained take on his costume for the show). And there was already precedent for non-canonical Doctors playing the role in various productions of Seven Keys (the original starred Trevor Martin, but other productions had other actors - there was even one in New Zealand!). Perhaps whoever plays the Doctor (or more than one, a la Ultimate Adventure) could do a stage show or two at the parks in the off-season...
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With regard to the Disney Channel as premium cable: we still haven't butterflied away Nickelodeon, currently part of Warner-Amex Satellite Entertainment. Either it gets sold off to Viacom, pretty soon or the Rabbit decides to make it a go of being "PBS in the Morning, Disney Channel for Free in the afternoon and early Prime Time." A channel runner with the right vision, show selection, and sponsors could give the Disney Channel a run for its money. In OTL, Viacom managed to force the Disney Channel down to basic cable, and with no IP they didn't make famous themselves. Granted, Disney has Henson and a Fraggle Rock with an unlimited budget, but that is just putting a target on the channel.
Or am I rambling?
Or am I rambling?
I wonder if keeping Nick would butterfly away Cartoon Network, or maybe turner stay independant from warner?
Only part I object to right there. This whole timeline is founded on Disney being (relatively) short on cash in the 80's, so they can't throw money at projects. I'm not familiar with Nick or CN (I grew up in rural Ontario where you were lucky to get reception from PBS or Fox out of Buffalo) but I like the idea of 'PBS in the morning, Disney in the afternoon' for a programming lineup.
I mean that, compared to HBO, Henson is free to use more solid sets and muppets with more ways to hide the operators, and so can use more camera angles and muppet postures. Henson of all people knows better than to spend money just to spend money.
Thanks, Garrett, and welcome aboard!
That's interesting to know, Yvon. Hmmm...
I have some thoughts on alt SciFi. Stay tuned. I'm still figuring out Star Wars.
I'll need to put some thought into Nick et al. Cable TV history is not my area of expertise, but neither was Disney when I started this.
Stay tuned! Next post tomorrow!
📺If you need some history on Nickelodean, there's a channel on Youtube called Poparena that's doing a pretty great show-by-show retrospective on Nickelodeon called Nick Knacks. I think he's also turning it into a book, too.
Henson Bio VII: Japan
Chapter 12: Bold New Directions (Cont’d)
Excerpt from Jim Henson: Storyteller, an authorized biography by Jay O’Brian.
In April of 1983 Jim, Card, and other Disney executives flew to Tokyo for the opening of Tokyo Disneyland . Jim brought along his youngest son John, who would be turning 18 on the 25th, and youngest daughter Heather, who was 12. Both were on Spring Break. It would be an exciting and monumental trip for all of them. The recent move from familiar New York to strange Los Angeles had been hardest on the two youngest Henson children, as had the growing tensions between Jim and Jane over the move and Jim’s excessive working hours, and Jim hoped that the trip could help ease the two into the new situation.
Fujiyama (Image source “livejapan.com”)
For the spiritual-minded John, the inherent magic of Japan and its Shinto and Zen Buddhist traditions resonated with him and he begged his dad to take him to every temple and shrine. The trip ultimately culminated for him in a climb to the top of Mount Fuji, a journey that John would remember as one of the most transcendent in his life. “One of the locals told me ‘there are many paths to the top of Fujiyama,’” John remembered, the glow of the memory still alive in his eyes even years later. “I didn’t quite know what he meant. Was he being literal? No, it meant that there was wisdom in every religion and philosophy and that any path to the divine held rewards. That stuck with me.”
Heather was more to-the-point about it all. “It was a hard time in my life. Most of [the Japan trip] was kind of a blur. Tokyo was all neon and motion and, after a while, all the shrines we visited started to look alike. Honestly, my clearest memories were of dad constantly singing Turning Japanese [by the Vapors], which was three years old at the time, so ancient. (laughs) I got so sick of it! After about the 200th time [he sang it], John said to him, ‘Dad, you know what that song is about, right?’ and started jerking his wrist back and forth[1]. I was so naïve at the time that I said, ‘what, rolling dice?’ They both laughed for a minute straight while I sat there, oblivious. A few of years later, with a couple years of High School behind me, I finally realized what John meant and I nearly died of belated embarrassment on the spot!”
Just to ensure it’s properly stuck in your head…
She did recall one moment that stuck with her in a meaningful way, at one of the innumerable shrines, they visited: “There was this one shrine. It had a big painting of a dragon on the ceiling. The tour guide showed how if he clapped a couple pieces of wood together right below the dragon's head the acoustics were such that it rang throughout the room, but if he did it anywhere in the room other than below the dragon's head, it didn’t. It was like the ‘dragon’ was singing. It was early multi-media entertainment![2]”
The “Crying Dragon” of Nikkō (Image source “gojiakhong.com”)
For Jim Henson, the trip would have profound professional implications as well as spiritual ones. It wasn’t his first trip to Japan – he’d been there in 1976 for the Muppet special with musician Goro Noguchi – but this time he had plenty of time to play and explore. He was struck and flattered by the popularity of The Dark Crystal in Japan[3]. The show had a reasonable following in the US, but in Japan is was possibly his most popular creation! Some Japanese citizens recognized him, usually from Disney’s World of Magic, which played, dubbed, in Japan, and were often more interested in hearing about Gelflings and Skeksis than they were about Bert and Ernie or Kermit and Piggy.
Bunraku Puppetry in Japan (Image from “Japan-zone.com”)
Jim was pleasantly surprised to see that the art of traditional puppetry was alive and well in Japan, as it had been in Europe. He made a point of visiting as many bunraku masters as he could, even recording footage and interviews for a documentary Short to be played on World of Magic. He did a few interviews himself with Japanese television, talking not just Disney, but puppetry and Henson Associates’ upcoming projects.
(Image source “yamato.fandom.com”)
But while in Japan, a new bug caught him: Japanese animation, or anime. Jim was pleasantly surprised to see that animation was highly valued in the country by both children and adults. He and the kids went to see several animated films, in particular Phoenix 2772 and the two hour long Final Yamato, which unbeknownst to him was the last movie in a long series. He and his children didn’t understand a word of the Japanese production (Jim didn’t even know the actual title of the films, calling them “those Star Wars [like] cartoons”), but all three Hensons sat amazed at the visual artistry, serious, adult content, layered context, and the depth of emotion that they were able to portray, even without understanding the words. It had all come a long way from the Speed Racer and Astro Boy shows that Jim had seen in the US fifteen years earlier with his older children.
Any Resemblance to any given Disney Movie is Strictly Coincidental (Image source “junglemperorleo.fandom.com”)
Jim became interested enough in the anime industry that he convinced Card Walker to let him stay in the country for an extra week to visit the studios. He made official visits to all the major animation studios, even scoring an interview for World of Magic with anime and manga legend Osamu Tezuka, the so-called “Japanese Walt Disney”, who was perhaps best known for his Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion series[4]. Tezuka was very complimentary of Disney, citing Bambi in particular as an influence for Kimba. Jim made several contacts, hoping to bring the beautiful animation he’d seen to the states. He made a tentative deal with Tezuka later approved by Ron Miller to play the new Astro Boy series (dubbed into English) on The Disney Channel, where it gained a modest following.
On the 15th of April, halfway through his extended visit, Jim was on hand for the opening of Tokyo Disneyland. For many, this grand ceremony would have been the highlight of the trip. For Jim Henson, however, it was an afterthought. Disney had brought it’s All American brand to the Land of the Rising Sun. Jim Henson now hoped to bring a little bit of Japan back to the Land of the Free.
[1] An old fan theory (denied by the band) based upon an old (and totally racist) slang term for self-gratification. The ‘80s ain’t pretty when you dig past the shiny neon surface. Leave your nostalgia glasses in your other bag.
[2] In our timeline Heather is very interested in expanding the art of storytelling through multi-media interactive environments. The Temple I describe with the “singing dragon” is in Nikkō, Japan, near Tokyo.
[3] Recall that The Dark Crystal is Japan’s highest grossing Henson production, both in our timeline and this one.
[4] Yes…I went there.
Excerpt from Jim Henson: Storyteller, an authorized biography by Jay O’Brian.
In April of 1983 Jim, Card, and other Disney executives flew to Tokyo for the opening of Tokyo Disneyland . Jim brought along his youngest son John, who would be turning 18 on the 25th, and youngest daughter Heather, who was 12. Both were on Spring Break. It would be an exciting and monumental trip for all of them. The recent move from familiar New York to strange Los Angeles had been hardest on the two youngest Henson children, as had the growing tensions between Jim and Jane over the move and Jim’s excessive working hours, and Jim hoped that the trip could help ease the two into the new situation.
Fujiyama (Image source “livejapan.com”)
For the spiritual-minded John, the inherent magic of Japan and its Shinto and Zen Buddhist traditions resonated with him and he begged his dad to take him to every temple and shrine. The trip ultimately culminated for him in a climb to the top of Mount Fuji, a journey that John would remember as one of the most transcendent in his life. “One of the locals told me ‘there are many paths to the top of Fujiyama,’” John remembered, the glow of the memory still alive in his eyes even years later. “I didn’t quite know what he meant. Was he being literal? No, it meant that there was wisdom in every religion and philosophy and that any path to the divine held rewards. That stuck with me.”
Heather was more to-the-point about it all. “It was a hard time in my life. Most of [the Japan trip] was kind of a blur. Tokyo was all neon and motion and, after a while, all the shrines we visited started to look alike. Honestly, my clearest memories were of dad constantly singing Turning Japanese [by the Vapors], which was three years old at the time, so ancient. (laughs) I got so sick of it! After about the 200th time [he sang it], John said to him, ‘Dad, you know what that song is about, right?’ and started jerking his wrist back and forth[1]. I was so naïve at the time that I said, ‘what, rolling dice?’ They both laughed for a minute straight while I sat there, oblivious. A few of years later, with a couple years of High School behind me, I finally realized what John meant and I nearly died of belated embarrassment on the spot!”
She did recall one moment that stuck with her in a meaningful way, at one of the innumerable shrines, they visited: “There was this one shrine. It had a big painting of a dragon on the ceiling. The tour guide showed how if he clapped a couple pieces of wood together right below the dragon's head the acoustics were such that it rang throughout the room, but if he did it anywhere in the room other than below the dragon's head, it didn’t. It was like the ‘dragon’ was singing. It was early multi-media entertainment![2]”
The “Crying Dragon” of Nikkō (Image source “gojiakhong.com”)
For Jim Henson, the trip would have profound professional implications as well as spiritual ones. It wasn’t his first trip to Japan – he’d been there in 1976 for the Muppet special with musician Goro Noguchi – but this time he had plenty of time to play and explore. He was struck and flattered by the popularity of The Dark Crystal in Japan[3]. The show had a reasonable following in the US, but in Japan is was possibly his most popular creation! Some Japanese citizens recognized him, usually from Disney’s World of Magic, which played, dubbed, in Japan, and were often more interested in hearing about Gelflings and Skeksis than they were about Bert and Ernie or Kermit and Piggy.
Bunraku Puppetry in Japan (Image from “Japan-zone.com”)
Jim was pleasantly surprised to see that the art of traditional puppetry was alive and well in Japan, as it had been in Europe. He made a point of visiting as many bunraku masters as he could, even recording footage and interviews for a documentary Short to be played on World of Magic. He did a few interviews himself with Japanese television, talking not just Disney, but puppetry and Henson Associates’ upcoming projects.
(Image source “yamato.fandom.com”)
But while in Japan, a new bug caught him: Japanese animation, or anime. Jim was pleasantly surprised to see that animation was highly valued in the country by both children and adults. He and the kids went to see several animated films, in particular Phoenix 2772 and the two hour long Final Yamato, which unbeknownst to him was the last movie in a long series. He and his children didn’t understand a word of the Japanese production (Jim didn’t even know the actual title of the films, calling them “those Star Wars [like] cartoons”), but all three Hensons sat amazed at the visual artistry, serious, adult content, layered context, and the depth of emotion that they were able to portray, even without understanding the words. It had all come a long way from the Speed Racer and Astro Boy shows that Jim had seen in the US fifteen years earlier with his older children.
Any Resemblance to any given Disney Movie is Strictly Coincidental (Image source “junglemperorleo.fandom.com”)
Jim became interested enough in the anime industry that he convinced Card Walker to let him stay in the country for an extra week to visit the studios. He made official visits to all the major animation studios, even scoring an interview for World of Magic with anime and manga legend Osamu Tezuka, the so-called “Japanese Walt Disney”, who was perhaps best known for his Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion series[4]. Tezuka was very complimentary of Disney, citing Bambi in particular as an influence for Kimba. Jim made several contacts, hoping to bring the beautiful animation he’d seen to the states. He made a tentative deal with Tezuka later approved by Ron Miller to play the new Astro Boy series (dubbed into English) on The Disney Channel, where it gained a modest following.
On the 15th of April, halfway through his extended visit, Jim was on hand for the opening of Tokyo Disneyland. For many, this grand ceremony would have been the highlight of the trip. For Jim Henson, however, it was an afterthought. Disney had brought it’s All American brand to the Land of the Rising Sun. Jim Henson now hoped to bring a little bit of Japan back to the Land of the Free.
[1] An old fan theory (denied by the band) based upon an old (and totally racist) slang term for self-gratification. The ‘80s ain’t pretty when you dig past the shiny neon surface. Leave your nostalgia glasses in your other bag.
[2] In our timeline Heather is very interested in expanding the art of storytelling through multi-media interactive environments. The Temple I describe with the “singing dragon” is in Nikkō, Japan, near Tokyo.
[3] Recall that The Dark Crystal is Japan’s highest grossing Henson production, both in our timeline and this one.
[4] Yes…I went there.
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