I'm sure TOG can design something capable of mounting the octuple pom-pom
Only 1? At least 2 and a couple of 3.7" AA guns as well
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Only 1? At least 2 and a couple of 3.7" AA guns as well
The British are currently producing the Besa 15mm heavy machine gun and the ammunition for it. Turn that into a multi-gun belt fed light AA. Ask your own pilots what concerns them the most when attacking ground targets and they will tell you the tracer rounds bother them the most. Add more tracer to your belts. The purpose is not to necessarily hit the attacking aircraft but to put them off and spoil their attack. In fact, if they can recover some of the guns from any MK VI tanks that were knocked out, a cobbled together light AA could be made in the field.
Now those where some interesting updates.
Whilst the losses the Germans suffered are higher than OTL that isn't the really important part. Yes they are significant and will likely slow the Germans down, at least in the vicinity of the British, giving more time to plan and implement the coming evacuation. The really important part is the improved effectiveness of British forces in combat from some minor changes. The improved communication and overall conservative approach will show how things should be done as will the survival of more regulars. Yes it will be of little value in France but as the lessons learnt are disseminated the British forces around the world. particularly in North Africa will be more effective because of it. The fact the units that charged off were effectively wiped out means those type of attacks will be far less common unsupported. You can also, as of this point at least, claim this as a definitive British victory. Yes it is a small one and overall an insignificant one to the campaign as a whole but will be very important to Britain. Firstly to the coming evacuation as mentioned but also to the national, military and political psyche. The fact that British forces went up against and beat the vaunted panzer's that had rolled over the Polish and the French will go some way to reducing the invasion panic.
All in all a very positive position for the British. For now at least, let's see how the rest of the campaign plays out.
Also, 2 final points.
Hopefully
Whilst the losses the Germans suffered are higher than OTL that isn't the really important part. Yes they are significant and will likely slow the Germans down, at least in the vicinity of the British, giving more time to plan and implement the coming evacuation. The really important part is the improved effectiveness of British forces in combat from some minor changes. The improved communication and overall conservative approach will show how things should be done as will the survival of more regulars. Yes it will be of little value in France but as the lessons learnt are disseminated the British forces around the world. particularly in North Africa will be more effective because of it. The fact the units that charged off were effectively wiped out means those type of attacks will be far less common unsupported. You can also, as of this point at least, claim this as a definitive British victory. Yes it is a small one and overall an insignificant one to the campaign as a whole but will be very important to Britain. Firstly to the coming evacuation as mentioned but also to the national, military and political psyche. The fact that British forces went up against and beat the vaunted panzer's that had rolled over the Polish and the French will go some way to reducing the invasion panic.
All in all a very positive position for the British. For now at least, let's see how the rest of the campaign plays out.
Also, 2 final points.
- Where are the Valiant's?
- The fact a Matilda 1 shot down a Stuka wil lget attention. A SPAAG is on the way for the British, not immediately, but sooner than OTL and a better one than this
Hopefully
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Bingo.
As with the SPAAG it likely wont be an immediate adoption but the fact the people on the ground who will have seen the problem of slow infantry are surviving in France means it will get highlighted. OTL even if the need had been I doubt much would have been done in 1940-41 anyway as the invasion panic set everything back and led to some fairly short sighted decisions. TTL if the Invasion panic is reduced by a combination of factors adding up then it may well happen.
marathag
Banned
'...remember how well the AAA did in Northern France-- imagine what they would do against paratroopers!'
I imagine there will be some reduction in the level of panic if Britain can hold Calais, as it would allow them to wreck the port on the way out, rendering it useless for at least the rest of the year.
Broadside mountingsI'm sure TOG can design something capable of mounting the octuple pom-pom
The crew will be very unimpressed to hear the Spa and Mess room is now an ammunition storage area.
The crew? Who cares what the crew think? The officers are all that matter and the idea that their mess could be appropriated for something other than a Bridge Evening is beyond words...
21 May 1940. 18:00hrs. Agnez-lès-Duisans, France.
allanpcameron
Donor
21 May 1940. 18:00hrs. Agnez-lès-Duisans, France.
Oberst Karl Rothenburg, having received the order from General Rommel to retrace his steps and hit in the flank whoever it was who had ambushed II Battalion near Warlus, gave the command to move. As he had already prepared his officers for such an eventuality, when Rommel’s order came through, he was very quickly back on the road. Over 100 panzers, the majority of which were Pz 38s, of the combined I and III Battalions set off on the road towards Haute-Avesnes, then towards Agnez-lès-Duisans where they would have to cross Le Gy, which wasn’t much more than a stream, but Agnez was the best place to cross it. From there the Panzers would hit Warlus from the north, avenging II Battalion.
At Agnez however Rothenburg’s unit ran into a detachment of 3e DLM Somua S35s and a French anti-tank gun screen. The French 47mm guns on the S35s were well able to deal with the Czech made panzers. The 25mm anti-tank guns struggled against the Pz 38s, though the German Panzer I and IIs were vulnerable to the French guns. On the other hand, the 37mm guns on the Panzer 38(t) had to be pretty close to the French tanks to penetrate the armour of the S35s. The co-axial machine-guns on the German tanks scattered the anti-tank gunners relatively easily, but the Panzer Regiment suffered some losses before they were able to drive off the French tanks and break through the anti-tank gun positions. All this had slowed the progress of the Regiment significantly. They had to regroup before they could make the 3km run towards Warlus. It wouldn’t be long until the light faded, and Rotherburg was conscious that Rommel was relying on him.
7th Bn RTR for the second time that day scored an ambush on the 25th Panzer Regiment. The fifteen Infantry tanks of B Company, arriving to take up positions to support the 8th DLI around Duisans, were informed of the fight between the panzers and the French tanks, which the infantry had seen clearly. Advancing past the dug in infantry, the section of three A12 Infantry Tank Mark IIs got into a position where their 2-pdr guns were able to knock out four panzers before the Germans even realised they were there. In this case, the British tanks had the added bonus of 260th anti-tank battery whose 2-pdrs compounded the problems for the 25th Panzer Regiment. As the Germans reacted to the movement of the British tanks as they reversed, the Panzers advanced onto the 2-pdr guns of the 260th battery. The officer commanding the 260th anti-tank battery knew his stuff, and he had created an effective defensive position with the men of the 8th DLI. Then, to make matters worse, the pompoms of the A11s came into effective range, and once more, a large force of panzers faced off a Company of Infantry Tanks and came off worse.
Following their training, the Panzer troops scattered looking for flanks that they could turn, resisting the temptation to go toe to toe with an unknown, potentially greater force. Despite the earlier pasting by the Stukas, the 8th Battalion DLI were well dug in, happily facing the direction from which the Germans approached. With Lt-Col Heyland informed what was happening, he brought his surviving HQ and A Company tanks forward from Dainville which, crucially, prevented the 25th Panzer Regiment from getting around the flank of the 8th DLI. The 3e DLM were also still on the field in small packets and as the German tanks manoeuvred, looking for weak points, they seemed to regularly find themselves in contact with French or British tanks, which gave them the impression that they were dealing with a much stronger force than was actually on the field.
The final straw for Rothenburg was when the 365th RA battery began dropping artillery shells among his tanks. He was obviously facing a well-prepared defence, with tanks, anti-tank guns, and infantry, backed by artillery. He had no other choice but to order his remaining panzers to withdraw back towards Haute-Avesnes. There he would be able to reassemble again, and inform the Division HQ what was happening. Perhaps the Luftwaffe would be able to weaken the defenders enough before nightfall to allow him another attack, though he was still separated from the Infantry Regiments and artillery support.
The British anti-tank guns had accounted for 25 panzers. The tanks of 7th RTR had added another twelve on top of that, which with the previous work by the French had taken another eight off Rothenburg’s total. With the losses to II Battalion earlier, 25th Panzer Regiment had lost some 65 panzers, not quite half of their strength. The 7th Panzer Division’s 6th and 7th Rifle Regiments each had a battalion who had lost a lot of men and motor transport. General Rommel was still running around trying to get his scattered force back together. He was using Beaumetz-lès-Loges, on the Arras-Doullens road, as his rally point. This was where the survivors of II Battalion/25th Panzers had retired to, and as the Rifle Regiments got themselves sorted out, this was where they were to gather. The reports from Rothenburg to 7th Panzer's HQ also went up to Hoth’s Corps HQ, and from there back to Army HQ. It wasn’t entirely clear what had happened to 7th Panzer Division, but there was obviously a large enemy blocking force working out of Arras.
Text in italic differs from OTL.
The encounter with the 3e DLM did happen and slowed 25th Panzer Regiment down. The DLI was split with 2 companies in Duisans and 2 in Warlus. The 2 in Warlus took very heavy casualties, and only the arrival of some French tanks after midnight got the survivors out. Here, the Battalion has remained together, since most of 7th Bn RTR had withdrawn from Warlus earlier, and so they prepared to receive a counter-attack, which I believe would be standard practice. When the panzers eventually broke through the French, during their attack on the rest of 8 DLI in Duisans, the number of panzers lost (25) to the 2-pdrs of 260th anti-tank battery is accurate, according to my sources. I have no numbers for the losses of panzers to the French. Rommel says he destroyed 7 French tanks, so I've gone for just about 1 for 1 losses to the panzers. Obviously the panzer losses to the 7 RTR is fictional. It could have been higher, but I've tended towards low estimates generally.
Oberst Karl Rothenburg, having received the order from General Rommel to retrace his steps and hit in the flank whoever it was who had ambushed II Battalion near Warlus, gave the command to move. As he had already prepared his officers for such an eventuality, when Rommel’s order came through, he was very quickly back on the road. Over 100 panzers, the majority of which were Pz 38s, of the combined I and III Battalions set off on the road towards Haute-Avesnes, then towards Agnez-lès-Duisans where they would have to cross Le Gy, which wasn’t much more than a stream, but Agnez was the best place to cross it. From there the Panzers would hit Warlus from the north, avenging II Battalion.
At Agnez however Rothenburg’s unit ran into a detachment of 3e DLM Somua S35s and a French anti-tank gun screen. The French 47mm guns on the S35s were well able to deal with the Czech made panzers. The 25mm anti-tank guns struggled against the Pz 38s, though the German Panzer I and IIs were vulnerable to the French guns. On the other hand, the 37mm guns on the Panzer 38(t) had to be pretty close to the French tanks to penetrate the armour of the S35s. The co-axial machine-guns on the German tanks scattered the anti-tank gunners relatively easily, but the Panzer Regiment suffered some losses before they were able to drive off the French tanks and break through the anti-tank gun positions. All this had slowed the progress of the Regiment significantly. They had to regroup before they could make the 3km run towards Warlus. It wouldn’t be long until the light faded, and Rotherburg was conscious that Rommel was relying on him.
7th Bn RTR for the second time that day scored an ambush on the 25th Panzer Regiment. The fifteen Infantry tanks of B Company, arriving to take up positions to support the 8th DLI around Duisans, were informed of the fight between the panzers and the French tanks, which the infantry had seen clearly. Advancing past the dug in infantry, the section of three A12 Infantry Tank Mark IIs got into a position where their 2-pdr guns were able to knock out four panzers before the Germans even realised they were there. In this case, the British tanks had the added bonus of 260th anti-tank battery whose 2-pdrs compounded the problems for the 25th Panzer Regiment. As the Germans reacted to the movement of the British tanks as they reversed, the Panzers advanced onto the 2-pdr guns of the 260th battery. The officer commanding the 260th anti-tank battery knew his stuff, and he had created an effective defensive position with the men of the 8th DLI. Then, to make matters worse, the pompoms of the A11s came into effective range, and once more, a large force of panzers faced off a Company of Infantry Tanks and came off worse.
Following their training, the Panzer troops scattered looking for flanks that they could turn, resisting the temptation to go toe to toe with an unknown, potentially greater force. Despite the earlier pasting by the Stukas, the 8th Battalion DLI were well dug in, happily facing the direction from which the Germans approached. With Lt-Col Heyland informed what was happening, he brought his surviving HQ and A Company tanks forward from Dainville which, crucially, prevented the 25th Panzer Regiment from getting around the flank of the 8th DLI. The 3e DLM were also still on the field in small packets and as the German tanks manoeuvred, looking for weak points, they seemed to regularly find themselves in contact with French or British tanks, which gave them the impression that they were dealing with a much stronger force than was actually on the field.
The final straw for Rothenburg was when the 365th RA battery began dropping artillery shells among his tanks. He was obviously facing a well-prepared defence, with tanks, anti-tank guns, and infantry, backed by artillery. He had no other choice but to order his remaining panzers to withdraw back towards Haute-Avesnes. There he would be able to reassemble again, and inform the Division HQ what was happening. Perhaps the Luftwaffe would be able to weaken the defenders enough before nightfall to allow him another attack, though he was still separated from the Infantry Regiments and artillery support.
The British anti-tank guns had accounted for 25 panzers. The tanks of 7th RTR had added another twelve on top of that, which with the previous work by the French had taken another eight off Rothenburg’s total. With the losses to II Battalion earlier, 25th Panzer Regiment had lost some 65 panzers, not quite half of their strength. The 7th Panzer Division’s 6th and 7th Rifle Regiments each had a battalion who had lost a lot of men and motor transport. General Rommel was still running around trying to get his scattered force back together. He was using Beaumetz-lès-Loges, on the Arras-Doullens road, as his rally point. This was where the survivors of II Battalion/25th Panzers had retired to, and as the Rifle Regiments got themselves sorted out, this was where they were to gather. The reports from Rothenburg to 7th Panzer's HQ also went up to Hoth’s Corps HQ, and from there back to Army HQ. It wasn’t entirely clear what had happened to 7th Panzer Division, but there was obviously a large enemy blocking force working out of Arras.
Text in italic differs from OTL.
The encounter with the 3e DLM did happen and slowed 25th Panzer Regiment down. The DLI was split with 2 companies in Duisans and 2 in Warlus. The 2 in Warlus took very heavy casualties, and only the arrival of some French tanks after midnight got the survivors out. Here, the Battalion has remained together, since most of 7th Bn RTR had withdrawn from Warlus earlier, and so they prepared to receive a counter-attack, which I believe would be standard practice. When the panzers eventually broke through the French, during their attack on the rest of 8 DLI in Duisans, the number of panzers lost (25) to the 2-pdrs of 260th anti-tank battery is accurate, according to my sources. I have no numbers for the losses of panzers to the French. Rommel says he destroyed 7 French tanks, so I've gone for just about 1 for 1 losses to the panzers. Obviously the panzer losses to the 7 RTR is fictional. It could have been higher, but I've tended towards low estimates generally.
Again another good update.
This will all be adding up for the British. They are going toe to toe with the Panzer's and winning which will be a major moral boost, both in the immediate time frame and at home. A lot of experienced Officer's, senior NCO's and men in general will be making it back to Britain with combat experience that didn't OTL. A lot of Tanks and equipment that OTL was destroyed when it's operators were killed or captured is surviving here. That will make a difference when Britain set's up a defensive perimeter around Dunkirk and possibly Caen.
This will all be adding up for the British. They are going toe to toe with the Panzer's and winning which will be a major moral boost, both in the immediate time frame and at home. A lot of experienced Officer's, senior NCO's and men in general will be making it back to Britain with combat experience that didn't OTL. A lot of Tanks and equipment that OTL was destroyed when it's operators were killed or captured is surviving here. That will make a difference when Britain set's up a defensive perimeter around Dunkirk and possibly Caen.
Yep, that will help as well. TTL as it stands anyway,
- Britain has shown it can fight and beat the German Panzer's and the men who did it are surviving and retaining their equipment. Assuming they make it back to Britain then they will go some way to calming any panic.
- It looks like a more effective perimeter will be set up allowing a smoother and more effective evacuation. If even some heavier equipment is gotten out, things like 2pdr's and motorcycles etc at most probably that will again help. As will the men getting out with their personal weapons, that will be a moral boost for them.
- The better tank production at home along with most of it being of a very good tank design mean less equipment shortages, still some yes but not as acute as OTL. This situation is made better by point 2.
And that basically gets them to dusk and no sign of the Luftwaffe and has pretty much ruined what remained of the 7th Panzer. I suspect the 5th Panzer is going to be tasked with taking the Allied position, only they'll have been withdrawn back to Vimy Ridge overnight.
What are the odds that the 5th Panzer is going to pursue and run into prepared positions on the ridge and get ground down as well? The only fly in the ointment is going to be the Luftwaffe.
Either way, so far the Matildas have acquitted themselves extremely well and have maintained themselves as a coherent fighting force, which will stand the BEF in good stead as it falls back on the Channel.
By chance or design, the 4th RTR basically has mirrored classic Panzer doctrine of sucking enemy armour onto prepared anti-tank gun positions with their own tanks. I think the tactical lessons of Arras, with more crews surviving to pass on their knowledge, will stand the UK in good stead for the rest of the war.
The BEF's armour will inevitably be ground down in the retreat, but I think they're going to do a lot of damage to the Panzerwaffe in the process.
What are the odds that the 5th Panzer is going to pursue and run into prepared positions on the ridge and get ground down as well? The only fly in the ointment is going to be the Luftwaffe.
Either way, so far the Matildas have acquitted themselves extremely well and have maintained themselves as a coherent fighting force, which will stand the BEF in good stead as it falls back on the Channel.
By chance or design, the 4th RTR basically has mirrored classic Panzer doctrine of sucking enemy armour onto prepared anti-tank gun positions with their own tanks. I think the tactical lessons of Arras, with more crews surviving to pass on their knowledge, will stand the UK in good stead for the rest of the war.
The BEF's armour will inevitably be ground down in the retreat, but I think they're going to do a lot of damage to the Panzerwaffe in the process.
Considering the increased losses of tanks during the Battle of France, some of those definitive, the Germans may have to consider ramping up production further in 1940 and 1941 if it wants to start Op Barbarossa in time, or would have to delay the invasion further. If the latter, or if they attack with less tanks this is only going to reduce the extent of the disaster for the URSS, even slightly.
7th Panzer has probably been hurt a lot worse than Rommel wants to believe. They've had over half their available tanks shot from under them. They don't own the battlefield at this point, so damaged tanks don't get recovered. They will also have other losses due to mechanical breakdowns. A division that badly hurt is no longer a viable combat force. The logical action is to have them withdraw under darkness, leaving a recon/patrol screen out, to be relieved in the morning by 5th Panzer. Whether 5th Panzer do any better is another battle
This BIG question is, can the BEF and French do enough damage to 5th Panzer to grind them up as well? If they can, High Command (already very nervous about unprotected flanks) is likely to call a full halt while they find out exactly what is hitting them so hard. Because if it is a large enough force, that panzer spearhead is going to be cut off and hit in the rear (it isn't, but they don't know that)
This BIG question is, can the BEF and French do enough damage to 5th Panzer to grind them up as well? If they can, High Command (already very nervous about unprotected flanks) is likely to call a full halt while they find out exactly what is hitting them so hard. Because if it is a large enough force, that panzer spearhead is going to be cut off and hit in the rear (it isn't, but they don't know that)
At the same time the British will be able to recover at least some of their tanks that were taken out by hits to their tracks and properly destroy those that can't be recovered.
Lt. Col Hector Miles Heyland. OTL, after his tank had been disabled, he and his crew got out alive. Heyland sent his crew back towards British lines but re-entered his tank to try and raise HQ on the radio and let them know what was going on. And that was the last ever heard of him. TTL with better radio communications, he may well not find this necessary and survive to provide experienced leadership in N Africa.
It looks like Rommel survived after all. Although his reputation most likely will not! OTL he reported being attacked by hundreds of heavy tanks at Arras. That is unlikely to be different ITTL. The difference was OTL he was able to make himself look good during the battle and did very well throughout the rest of the campaign. Here as others have already mentioned 7th Panzer have had a mauling and will likely be withdrawn to reorganise and resupply. 7th Panzer currently looks unlikely to repeat its performance in the second part of the campaign and won’t win the name ghost division.
What of Rommel in these circumstances? Although a favourite of Hitlers after commanding his body guard unit in Poland his experience is all light infantry. There are likely to be some comments that the command of a Panzer division was a promotion to far. IMHO I can’t see Rommel being given a corps command any time soon and when/if it happens it will be infantry formations not panzers and certainly not the converted command of the DAK in 1941.
What of Rommel in these circumstances? Although a favourite of Hitlers after commanding his body guard unit in Poland his experience is all light infantry. There are likely to be some comments that the command of a Panzer division was a promotion to far. IMHO I can’t see Rommel being given a corps command any time soon and when/if it happens it will be infantry formations not panzers and certainly not the converted command of the DAK in 1941.
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