The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project

[Višeslav]

If you wanna play with German unification, maybe have it more focused on the Rhineland? It was a hotbed of republicanism iirc

First off, I think that the Colossus logo looks awesome! Though I'm not sure about the "Colossus of Liberty" idea.

Regarding Prussia, I was thinking that they were trying to do the OTL "blood and iron" unification, but more slowly, due to increased Franco-Austrian meddling. When the revolution came, Prussia was surrounded by enemies, and after large defections to the revolutionary cause, ("Germans shouldn't fight against Germans"), perhaps a compromise is reached, with the figurehead monarchy being Von Hohenzollern, and the capital being in Berlin?
Your description of the causes of the revolution is spot on. And I think that @Bennett is correct that the Rhineland would be the core of revolutionary activity.
As for the Schleswig question, I was thinking that the region would be annexed later on, possibly after the Great European war?

Ok, so I'll leave S-H out for now. I was thinking a Prussian figurehead would work, with kingdoms and principalities maintaining their own figureheads, with theoretical authority in regional legislatures, and smaller states as well as the Rhineland (separate from Prussia to curb Prussian dominance) having no regional monarchs. Basically: Prussia (Brandenburg, Silesia, and Prussia proper), Bavaria, Baden, Wurtemburg, Hanover, and Oldenburg and the "federal Hanseatic cities" (Bremen and Hamburg) are special areas, while the rest (around 1/3 of Germany) is regular provinces. Provinces are represented in the diet in proportion to population, while the kingdoms get slightly more seats than they'd get from population. I see Bavaria, Wurtemburg (very populated), and the Rhineland having much more influence TTL.

I'll be sure to have the kickoff of the revolution in the Rhineland. I see Prussia forming a shaky alliance with the revolutionaries around the early-mid part of the war to fight a common enemy, likely trying to hijack the revolution, and then being forced to compromise later as revolutionaries would probably do a lot of the work themselves and not feel like they owe Prussia everything.

What do you think?

 

[Oliveia]

I'll be sure to have the kickoff of the revolution in the Rhineland. I see Prussia forming a shaky alliance with the revolutionaries around the early-mid part of the war to fight a common enemy, likely trying to hijack the revolution, and then being forced to compromise later as revolutionaries would probably do a lot of the work themselves and not feel like they owe Prussia everything.

What do you think?

Once the revolutionaries own the Rhineland, Prussia will have to ally with them. The Rhineland was essentially the industrial heart of Prussia, and the most densely-populated province in the kingdom.

 

[Višeslav]

Once the revolutionaries own the Rhineland, Prussia will have to ally with them. The Rhineland was essentially the industrial heart of Prussia, and the most densely-populated province in the kingdom.

Yeah, the Rhineland is the main thing keeping Prussia's immense army afloat, you're right.

 

[Fox-Fire]

Now I re-read the past discussion I was thinking, why not have Posen/Poznan be (at least) initially a part of this united Germany, but not as a part of the kingdom of Prussia, like I suggested before?

In this case, Posen/Poznan would be a more similar to a regular province than to a part of a kingdom. Also, do you want me to create a map for this?

 

[Fox-Fire]

@Višeslav , @Bennett , @mikroraptor

Whatever, I made it anyway:

Some observations on the map:

I’m not sure if Luxembourg and Wettin Elsass-Lothringen will be a part of this Germany yet, so I didn’t include them. I don’t think we agreed on Luxembourg being a part of it or not, but IIRC, Wettin E-L will be after the next war.

I remade Galicia with the original border and not that monster I created.

Germany possesses, through Prussia, a notable exclave in Neuchatel.

I tried to make the Republican Provinces as realistically as I could. However, I’m hoping for suggestions regarding them. Smaller, larger, more, less? I can easily edit the map and I’m not that attached to them.

I’ve got a list of names and capitals for the Republican Provinces, but I don’t think that will be necessary until we define with more precision which will be the provinces. I have several proposals for them.

By the way, Thüringen’s provinces are just me lumping together some of the micro-states in the area and separating them by the largest cities in current Germany (I distrust me in this so please correct me if I’m wrong).

I tried to eliminate as many enclaves and exclaves as I could since I think the republican government would try to simplify things and to get rid of as much of the legacy of the HRE as possible while at the same time deriving some legitimacy from it. There are some enclaves remining though. Mainly those of the Kingdoms that didn’t grant entire states to the republicans (aka, everyone but Prussia).

I can easily edit those enclaves out with or without compensation by the same amount of area to the original owners.

I also have several proposals if we want to break down the Prussian Provinces/States (I don’t recall what they were called exactly, sorry) both into smaller ones inside the Kingdom as the population grows and outside it as the Kingdom is finally abolished and the Republican system takes over (with a ceremonial monarch of course).

I got two suggestions about connectivity between some areas:

1.- The first one is to grant the Bavarian Palatinate to the republican government.

2.- The second one is a much smaller one and consists on making a small corridor to connect the republican provinces of Mecklenburg to the republican provinces of Anhalt.

Prussia rearranged the borders of the Provinces of Brandenburg and Schlesien to add slightly more territory to them in detriment of the Province of Saxony and Anhalt, which was then turned to the republican government.

Posen/Poznan Province is part of the republican government but also more autonomous. I left it that way so we could later change its fate more easily, for example, if it wanted to abandon the union and be part of a future Polish State.

 

[Višeslav]

snop

I like this overall. Poznan might be autonomous, or the Germans might not give it autonomy and try to Germanize it. As much as I would like an easy transition into Polish hands, that's not realistically likely. The borders of the kingdoms make sense to me and the provinces in the, I wouldn't say republican (yet), but I guess regular federal land seem ok to me. As for the Saarland, I think that Bavaria would see losing it as an attack on its autonomy or an attempt to weaken Bavaria and strengthen Prussia, so the idea of Prussia losing a chunk of land too helps with that and it is harder to pass off as anything but gradually working towards the full integration of all German states, which would have been the goal of the whole revolution.

I like the unified Thuringia, it makes sense. The small states would not have contributed enough to the revolt to merit special status after unification and this arrangement makes administration simpler. Maybe smaller regional rulers, like the Thuringian monarchs, end up as peers in a house of lords type chamber of the diet or are guaranteed seats in the upper or lower house, after all, Britain has a system like this and would likely be one of the sources of inspiration for compromise between monarchy and popular representation.

Now, a few of my own questions:

Russia is involved in the German revolution, fighting Austria. How likely do y'all think it is that the Ottomans get dragged in fighting Russia? If they get involved, this mends Austro-Turkish relations and likely curtails later Austrian expansion into the Balkans (so not all of Bosnia)

Hungarians. They want autonomy. Are they likely to revolt while Austria is distracted in Germany? When Austria loses and they feel like they can win? Later? Never?

Is it ok if the US flag has one additional star for all the territories? There are a lot of fairly large territories TTL that will likely never be admitted as states (as opposed to other large territories that existed both TTL and OTL that were meant to be admitted into the union), so maybe territories have a better position TTL, and, as part of that, are represented on the flag?

 

[Fox-Fire]

Russia is involved in the German revolution, fighting Austria. How likely do y'all think it is that the Ottomans get dragged in fighting Russia? If they get involved, this mends Austro-Turkish relations and likely curtails later Austrian expansion into the Balkans (so not all of Bosnia)

I don't see the Ottomans contributing that much to mend the relationship with Austria that much. This isn't an stablished alliance with all the propaganda and good-feelers that carries, but instead a war of oportunism. Many people might be against it even in the Ottoman Empire. Oh, I don't doubt many would be in favour of it to take revenge for Crimea, and the government will be more than likely to capitalize on that, but I don't see the all the population being happy with it, specially since this is a German-focused affair and that carries with the it fact that even if the Ottoman empire does spectacularly (which, let's be honest, they won't), the will likely be sidelined inthe peace deal. What could be a smarter solution would be to try to annoy the Russian Empire as much as they could while avoiding war... And if they do declare war, they can peg it as a war fo agression against them. That will have much more support amongst the population. Though I still feel this is a worse idea than to just watch the other empires bloody each other since the Ottoman empire is too multi-ethnical and multi-cultural for there to be a strong base of support for anything. And, on the other hand, the groups that don't feel represented or stepped on in the Ottoman Empire would try to take this as a chance for trying their luck again to rise in rebellion. After all, the Balkans will be a theater regardless of the Ottomans getting involved or not.

Hungarians. They want autonomy. Are they likely to revolt while Austria is distracted in Germany? When Austria loses and they feel like they can win? Later? Never?

I feel they would start by using the war to extract concessions on the government. Beyond that I can't really tell since I don't know nearly enough. I'm sure there will be more radical elements though, and that Russia will try to court them or at least give them some resources to cause problems to the government. Nonetheless, that is something of a double-edged sword since Russia doesn't lack in minorities.

Is it ok if the US flag has one additional star for all the territories? There are a lot of fairly large territories TTL that will likely never be admitted as states (as opposed to other large territories that existed both TTL and OTL that were meant to be admitted into the union), so maybe territories have a better position TTL, and, as part of that, are represented on the flag?

Iim all for that. Speaking of which, what about linguistic rights? We have the opportunity to make this a more incluse US too.

 

[Višeslav]

I don't see the Ottomans contributing that much to mend the relationship with Austria that much. This isn't an stablished alliance with all the propaganda and good-feelers that carries, but instead a war of oportunism. Many people might be against it even in the Ottoman Empire. Oh, I don't doubt many would be in favour of it to take revenge for Crimea, and the government will be more than likely to capitalize on that, but I don't see the all the population being happy with it, specially since this is a German-focused affair and that carries with the it fact that even if the Ottoman empire does spectacularly (which, let's be honest, they won't), the will likely be sidelined inthe peace deal. What could be a smarter solution would be to try to annoy the Russian Empire as much as they could while avoiding war... And if they do declare war, they can peg it as a war fo agression against them. That will have much more support amongst the population. Though I still feel this is a worse idea than to just watch the other empires bloody each other since the Ottoman empire is too multi-ethnical and multi-cultural for there to be a strong base of support for anything. And, on the other hand, the groups that don't feel represented or stepped on in the Ottoman Empire would try to take this as a chance for trying their luck again to rise in rebellion. After all, the Balkans will be a theater regardless of the Ottomans getting involved or not.

That makes sense to me. So there will likely be fighting in places like Serbia and the Romanian principalities, but hostilities with the Ottomans are likely to be avoided to avoid adding a country to the opposing alliance, and the Ottomans try to avoid getting involved?

I feel they would start by using the war to extract concessions on the government. Beyond that I can't really tell since I don't know nearly enough. I'm sure there will be more radical elements though, and that Russia will try to court them or at least give them some resources to cause problems to the government. Nonetheless, that is something of a double-edged sword since Russia doesn't lack in minorities.

So you're thinking that Hungarian politicians would take advantage of the war to ask for autonomy as a reward for their great contribution? This sounds possible, the Croats did something similar during the Hungarian revolt to great effect. And then there would be smaller revolutionary groups seeking full independence funded by the Russians and Germans? This also sound ok to me.

I'm all for that. Speaking of which, what about linguistic rights? We have the opportunity to make this a more incluse US too.

Well, I think that while there would have to be some guarantee in the constitution that there can be secondary languages at least on a state level or something to ensure Canada (Quebec) joins the US, so states like Canada, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Louisiana, and maybe a few others (in central *Canada and maybe Arkansas) would have French as an official language alongside English, southwestern states (like Shasta, Yuta/Utah, Sabine, ec.) might have Spanish as an official language, and if Germans still settle in the Midwest, German might be official there. The thing is, there is another side to this coin. While there would be better language rights in the US, there would also be an earlier movement against Catholics (the French and later Spanish being the first and largest groups to receive special language status) in a number of states, particularly in New England and the South (in the states east of the Mississippi). Early on there would probably be a successor to the federalist party that is strongly anti-catholic. Of course this would likely die down, but slower than OTL, as these groups would not just be catholic but would also integrate less into the perceived american culture, keeping their native languages and some of their culture alive to a much greater degree.

 

[Višeslav]

Here's the map of Germany with the autonomous kingdoms highlighted. I based the borders of @Fox-Fire's map. Should I go ahead with this map as the base for Germany? Should Germany be called the German Federation, The German Empire, the United kingdom of Germany, or the German union?

The Autonomous Kingdoms in the German Empire​

 

[Fox-Fire]

Oh, that map looks great! Thank you so much for including my proposal! I would advice first on taking a good look at the provinces and reviewing them. I can try to do that, but then again I made the first map and so I might be biased.

Also, on Germany's name... What about the Imperial German Federation?

 

[Višeslav]

Oh, that map looks great! Thank you so much for including my proposal! I would advice first on taking a good look at the provinces and reviewing them. I can try to do that, but then again I made the first map and so I might be biased.

Also, on Germany's name... What about the Imperial German Federation?

I based my borders on yours but I looked at preexisting ones as well as population density maps from the time. I think they're ok, if someone has a more realistic idea though, they're welcome to tell me.

Imperial German Federation. Quite a mouthful, but then most countries formal names are. Maybe. We should wait and see what the others think.

 

[Višeslav]

Also, on Germany's name... What about the Imperial German Federation?

I've been thinking about the name, and I figured Federal Empire of Germany/German Imperial Federation doesn't sound half bad in German (Bundeskaiserreich Deutschland or Deutsches Bundeskaiserreich)

 

[mikroraptor]

I like the Federal Empire of Germany, TBH.
I was wondering, since there is a successful version of the nationalist/Republican revolutions of 1848, would this have a wider spread? Would we see revolutions in say, Ireland, Poland, or the Balkans? What is the response in the new world?

 

[Oliveia]

I see that Saxony isn't a monarchic state here -- perhaps the King will become sovereign of Poland as an exchange?? Is that possible (doubt it, but a suggestion nonetheless)?

 

[Višeslav]

I see that Saxony isn't a monarchic state here -- perhaps the King will become sovereign of Poland as an exchange?? Is that possible (doubt it, but a suggestion nonetheless)?

IIRC they lost Saxony for some reason I think they ended up with AL instead...

I like the Federal Empire of Germany, TBH.
I was wondering, since there is a successful version of the nationalist/Republican revolutions of 1848, would this have a wider spread? Would we see revolutions in say, Ireland, Poland, or the Balkans? What is the response in the new world?

Well, it's not entirely successful, though more than OTL. Germany is a more liberal monarchy, it is united, but it is allied with Russia, so Germany likely won't support Poland if it revolts at this point int time (which will probably happen). Austria, having just lost a war is in a more volatile situation, we will definitely see some revolts and greater autonomy being granted to certain regions of the empire. We might see another revolt in Greece, and Yugoslavist movements might try to pull something. These revolts might have more support, at least from Russia due to a common religion and a desire to take chunks of the Ottoman sphere of influence. What do you think would happen to the bourbons in France after this?

 

[Deleted member 107125]

So as the Ottomans are basically being tortured by the west, do you think they’d ally with Mysore?

 

[Višeslav]

So as the Ottomans are basically being tortured by the west, do you think they’d ally with Mysore?

It depends on how willing they are to go to war. I feel they'd definitely help with funding and arms but depending on the leadership, it may not be seen as wise to provoke war with Britain seeing as they're (currently) only being as you said tortured by Russia, Austria, and to a lesser degree their allies, Britain isn't involved early on in the war. Remember, the west isn't seen as a cohesive unit, and provoking war with someone who isn't bothering you is hardly worth it. The ottomans would react to the Russians supporting rebels in their borders though.

You've reminded me, we need to flesh out Asian history a bit. So far all we know is that Britain is having a lot more trouble around Mysore but has also seized Dutch land in Indonesia during the Napoleonic wars.

 

[Višeslav]

A WIP wikibox for Shasta. I'm looking for feedback (dw, Germany's coming).

What should the population statistics look like?
Should Spanish be an official language?
The flag and seal are placeholders, any advice on fixing them? Should the bear stay or go (I'm worried it's too convergent)?
Should it have a different capital?
Any other feedback?

(I'll do the lat & long later)

 

[Oliveia]

I like the flag, to be honest! Sacramento seems to be a good spot for a capital, to be honest.

That being said, I now realize that Maine and Wisconsin are really funky on that map.

 

[Višeslav]

Maine and Wisconsin are really funky on that map.

I'd better fix that. I was gonna use this map for all the boxes. Wisconsin is supposed to be different, but Maine is not. I see the funkiness now that you mentioned it.