Random question: what will TTL's policy be regarding people born post PoD? Some projects just disregard historical people completely and make their own "characters" while others only use people that existed OTL.
The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project
- Thread starter Višeslav
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I would say a mix. I think Characters are welcome, but it's fine to use the recognizable OTL figure instead of making an "ATL twin". Like if you make up a character that is too clear of a parallel I think that's pointless, and also I think OTL characters can be a fun edition and the expectations and assumptions that they come with for OTL viewers can both be a useful tool and fun to subvert. On the other hand, I think original characters can be interesting, and they don't get used enough in these maps and graphics ATLs.
So I think we should work with characters unless we want to give off a certain connotation/use someone as shorthand or make an allohistorical allusion (like how a lot of TLs show us what Hitler and Stalin are up to, though that in particular is not something I'm sure about doing here), but I also understand that making characters like these can be a pain, so sometimes, if it isn't implausible and for whatever reason you can't make a fictional historical figure, you can use an OTL one.
To finally be clear: I would say make fictional characters the default but I'd allow for a liberally sized sprinkling of OTL figures as well.
With this in mind, at what point do we say that OTL births are likely to get butterflied away? Like, in the US, I'd imagine it'd start happening pretty early on as the POD is there, and the changes in Europe and South America are pretty big soon after so they would also start experiencing butterflies quite early, lets say maybe 1790 for the US and 1800 for South America and Europe? Asia and Africa on the other hand have had relatively few changes so far, so I think OTL births might still be in the realm of possibility in them, but I think that there would already be some butterflies by the 1820s to allow for some early changes there and prevent the regions from being too stagnant (I specifically have something in mind for the Qing but I'm not sure about it yet).
The local PoD in South America is aroun 1806, so I think around that time
Right. Forgot about the specific year. See, here's the thing, there are sort of 2 schools of thought on this. Some people consider butterflies in effect from the moment of the POD, but some think it's more likely that the effects of a POD would take a few years to spread to that extent, though some/many people who had kids around the time would be in different situations, there would still be some in the same position, making their OTL children a possibility, but I guess that's too complicated to figure out. At any point after the local POD, births can start being butterflied, though, like I said, I'll have the butterflies spread to less effected continents before any major changes (so around the 1820s) just to keep things interesting. Does that sound good to you?
So I was thinking about a few things, you know, just the usual speculation I post way too much of in this thread with like 3-10 ish ideas that everyone, including me, forgets about in a few days.
First of all, I think I ought to just make a decision on France's colonial policy after the Napoleonic wars. It starts colonizing again. It's a pretty boring answer fairly like IOTL, but it seems the most likely to me. France would want to expand after having lost so much territory and would likely see colonial expansion as a less threatening alternative to expanding its influence on the continent. I'm gonna have Britain return some colonies to France after the Napoleonic wars, but not French Guyana and, after how big of a problem France was during the wars with Mysore, not France's Indian cities. This leaves France with Mauritius, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and the coast of Senegal. So I'd expect France to start off with something like Algeria since it's close by, has a hospitable climate for whiteys and isn't full of strange diseases. The Pacific and Indian Oceans are also options for early colonization and, of course, China. This means that some analogue to the Huangpu treaty and the Second Opium War can be expected. The thing is, this will all likely happen a bit later than IOTL. But this all does partially depend on what ends up happening in Egypt with Muhammad Ali Pasha. I expect France to go and demand reparations from Haiti like IOTL. Nobody liked Haiti, so nobody would oppose it.
Then there's the matter of German colonization. I won't go too deep into it until we've finished up with German unification but I think that in a TL where Germany unites earlier it will likely do better colonially for 2 fairly simple reasons. 1) no Bismarck to keep colonization limited so as not to scare the British too much 2) they get into the game much earlier so they have better colonies to choose from. There will of course be other factors limiting German colonization, so don't expect them to be anywhere near on par with the British or French, but they might seize a really good colony here or there, at best I'm thinking a piece of Indochina and a bit more African and more or just diffrent Pacific stuff than IOTL which is pretty good.
Finally, there is African American relocation/repatriation. Slavery is quite likely to end later/more gradually ITTL. While I see the North getting rid of it about as fast as IOTL and the South having less influence, I think the increased emphasis on State Autonomy would mean that the Southern states would unfortunately keep it for a fair deal longer unless there was a civil war, but regardless of total abolition, the north would still create a fairly large free black population, and in the south IOTL there was a growing free black population as well. This would only continue to increase as abolitionist beliefs slowly spread. The South hated the idea of having free black people, thinking they would undermine their slave based society, and many attempts were made at forced deportation to the North. Northerners, while not believing in Slavery, were still largely against living around Black people, and they likely would be ITTL with the exception of New Englanders. The idea of sending them to Africa would be present since the end of the ARW. With Britain sending so many of its freed Black people to Sierra Leone (way more than IOTL as they couldn't use Canada to store them and didn't really want too many of them in Britain, though ITTL Britain would still inevitably have a larger Black population early on as not all could be made to go to Africa). The question is, would it happen ITTL and who would do it? I'd expect if it happened it would be run by private individuals like IOTL maybe with funding and/or support from certain state governments looking to get rid of their black populations. I'm going to have to research this more, but any input on whether it would happen and if how, would be appreciated.
Basically do my musings and ramblings make any sense? What are your thoughts on these topics?
First of all, I think I ought to just make a decision on France's colonial policy after the Napoleonic wars. It starts colonizing again. It's a pretty boring answer fairly like IOTL, but it seems the most likely to me. France would want to expand after having lost so much territory and would likely see colonial expansion as a less threatening alternative to expanding its influence on the continent. I'm gonna have Britain return some colonies to France after the Napoleonic wars, but not French Guyana and, after how big of a problem France was during the wars with Mysore, not France's Indian cities. This leaves France with Mauritius, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and the coast of Senegal. So I'd expect France to start off with something like Algeria since it's close by, has a hospitable climate for whiteys and isn't full of strange diseases. The Pacific and Indian Oceans are also options for early colonization and, of course, China. This means that some analogue to the Huangpu treaty and the Second Opium War can be expected. The thing is, this will all likely happen a bit later than IOTL. But this all does partially depend on what ends up happening in Egypt with Muhammad Ali Pasha. I expect France to go and demand reparations from Haiti like IOTL. Nobody liked Haiti, so nobody would oppose it.
Then there's the matter of German colonization. I won't go too deep into it until we've finished up with German unification but I think that in a TL where Germany unites earlier it will likely do better colonially for 2 fairly simple reasons. 1) no Bismarck to keep colonization limited so as not to scare the British too much 2) they get into the game much earlier so they have better colonies to choose from. There will of course be other factors limiting German colonization, so don't expect them to be anywhere near on par with the British or French, but they might seize a really good colony here or there, at best I'm thinking a piece of Indochina and a bit more African and more or just diffrent Pacific stuff than IOTL which is pretty good.
Finally, there is African American relocation/repatriation. Slavery is quite likely to end later/more gradually ITTL. While I see the North getting rid of it about as fast as IOTL and the South having less influence, I think the increased emphasis on State Autonomy would mean that the Southern states would unfortunately keep it for a fair deal longer unless there was a civil war, but regardless of total abolition, the north would still create a fairly large free black population, and in the south IOTL there was a growing free black population as well. This would only continue to increase as abolitionist beliefs slowly spread. The South hated the idea of having free black people, thinking they would undermine their slave based society, and many attempts were made at forced deportation to the North. Northerners, while not believing in Slavery, were still largely against living around Black people, and they likely would be ITTL with the exception of New Englanders. The idea of sending them to Africa would be present since the end of the ARW. With Britain sending so many of its freed Black people to Sierra Leone (way more than IOTL as they couldn't use Canada to store them and didn't really want too many of them in Britain, though ITTL Britain would still inevitably have a larger Black population early on as not all could be made to go to Africa). The question is, would it happen ITTL and who would do it? I'd expect if it happened it would be run by private individuals like IOTL maybe with funding and/or support from certain state governments looking to get rid of their black populations. I'm going to have to research this more, but any input on whether it would happen and if how, would be appreciated.
Basically do my musings and ramblings make any sense? What are your thoughts on these topics?
Hey, @mikroraptor how's it going?
I realize I kind of stole your job by taking on the world map. Kind of a dick move on my part. Sorry about that, please don't feel snubbed or anything, I just forgot to check the list. Did you say you were thinking about US presidents ITTL or something? The clarification on OTL figures might help you with that. Got any ideas on that or are you busy with other things (which it 100% ok)?
[edit: spelling]
I realize I kind of stole your job by taking on the world map. Kind of a dick move on my part. Sorry about that, please don't feel snubbed or anything, I just forgot to check the list. Did you say you were thinking about US presidents ITTL or something? The clarification on OTL figures might help you with that. Got any ideas on that or are you busy with other things (which it 100% ok)?
[edit: spelling]
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So, I'm gonna be a bit busy for a while, and I've decided to leave something on this thread that might keep some of you entertained for a bit:
COTNW Future Plans Bingo
Inspired by something @Mina-van-Mako did on here, this grid has one row, column, or diagonal of things that I want to include in TTL for sure (that could come up in the relatively near future). Out of the rest of it, 3 squares will be things that I might want to do, and 3 will be things that I'm definitely not planning on doing (those will not necessarily form a column row or diagonal).
It's basically a way for me to throw out ideas that aren't ready for a full post without those annoying paragraphs of mine (I'm so sorry to anyone following this thread, though I doubt anyone is).
[edit: Of course feel free to make guesses, that's why its here]
COTNW Future Plans Bingo
Inspired by something @Mina-van-Mako did on here, this grid has one row, column, or diagonal of things that I want to include in TTL for sure (that could come up in the relatively near future). Out of the rest of it, 3 squares will be things that I might want to do, and 3 will be things that I'm definitely not planning on doing (those will not necessarily form a column row or diagonal).
It's basically a way for me to throw out ideas that aren't ready for a full post without those annoying paragraphs of mine (I'm so sorry to anyone following this thread, though I doubt anyone is).
[edit: Of course feel free to make guesses, that's why its here]
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Wow, I had compleeeeetely missed your TL, I'm going to start reading it ^^ thanks for mentioning me, I completely forgot to check out your TL, despite it being in your description !
Bah, that's fine, it very big yet anyway, as for mentioning you, I used your idea, it's only fair.
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Hey guys! To continue this project, we have decided to create a Discord server for it, where we'll discuss stuff and create lore, maps, and graphics together. If you wish to join, just click here! Everyone is welcome to come and worldbuild together!