White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been

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SsgtC

Banned
Good question! I'm guessing because it wasn't considered groundbreaking? Yes, she was the largest ship in the world at her launch, but she was also just a repeat of the Olympic. We have footage of Britannic I think because of people's fascination with Titanic.

Just OOC, I always wondered, why is their no known footage of Titanic's launch?There is footage of both Olympic and Britannic, so why not Titanic
 

SsgtC

Banned
They were actually 24 knot ships, so they should be able. They would however be vulnerable entering and exiting port.

At 22 kt the Olympic-class liners would be immune to even WWII U-boats (just like the Queens and a host of other ships in OTL WWII) provided of course they can keep that speed constant over the entire North Atlantic trip.
 
Just OOC, I always wondered, why is their no known footage of Titanic's launch?There is footage of both Olympic and Britannic, so why not Titanic

Good question! I'm guessing because it wasn't considered groundbreaking? Yes, she was the largest ship in the world at her launch, but she was also just a repeat of the Olympic. We have footage of Britannic I think because of people's fascination with Titanic.
From what I've read the footage was lost either in WWII when Belfast was flattened during the blitz or when a IRA bomb took out a decent chunk of the Harland & Wolff archives in the '70's.
 
Olympic needed constant repairs throughout its life because some from collisions from other ships and also from a flawed design like the bilge keel which never was able to fully stay intact. It was retired largely due to the high maintenance costs to keep it running after so many years plus I'm sure eight years of economic depression drained traffic. Olympic was going to scrapheap then if it had immigrant traffic to assist it and didn't have to rely on the tourist trade. Competition and the cost of modernizing such an old ship also will be its death nail.
Not really. All the reports that I have seen from the time said that other then her stern post, which was ten years younger then the rest of the ship, the Olympic was in really good nick, certainly better then the Majestic or the Berengaria. The main problem with her was that she was a older White Star ship in a mostly Cunard owned company.
 
Not really. All the reports that I have seen from the time said that other then her stern post, which was ten years younger then the rest of the ship, the Olympic was in really good nick, certainly better then the Majestic or the Berengaria. The main problem with her was that she was a older White Star ship in a mostly Cunard owned company.
Also, she had just had a refit in 1933, and many crewmembers said that she was 'hood as new' after it.
If you look at Olympic's last voyage, she looks great, with her paint shining.
Compared to Mauretania, with her rust stained hull, sun bleached funnels and cut down masts.
The problem was in 1934 Olympic only carried about 6, or 7000 passengers.
She was making a loss, that was the problem.
With the immigration ban not as severe in this TL, the Trio can survive the 30s
Another thing, one could be converted to a cadet ship, as Majestic was OTL.
 
From what I've read the footage was lost either in WWII when Belfast was flattened during the blitz or when a IRA bomb took out a decent chunk of the Harland & Wolff archives in the '70's.
Thats really unfortunate, it would have been very interesting footage, and would mean more footage of Titanic would be left, as opposed to the sole piece of her being fitted out.
Thanks anyway.
 
Thats really unfortunate, it would have been very interesting footage, and would mean more footage of Titanic would be left, as opposed to the sole piece of her being fitted out.
Thanks anyway.
There is a chance that a private collector could have a copy, but it's not likely.
 
At 22 kt the Olympic-class liners would be immune to even WWII U-boats (just like the Queens and a host of other ships in OTL WWII) provided of course they can keep that speed constant over the entire North Atlantic trip.
Cruising speed of 21kts and 'sprint' speed of 24kts.

Yes, that is good for an escort carrier, but far too slow as a fleet carrier. An escort carrier is smaller (Mostly 10k or below if I recall) and carried limited aircraft, for convoy defence and scouting only. This makes sense in many ways as it is cheaper.

A larger hull (Such as an Olympic Class) is getting on for the size of a fleet carrier, and at 24kts she is far too slow for that. By comparision:

Olympic - 882 x 92ft, 24kts
Ark Royal - 800 x 94ft, 31kts
Victorious - 673 x 95ft, 29.5kts
Courageous - 786 x 90ft, 30kts

Size is good, and she could potentially carry around 50 aircraft. I stress again that the issue is speed and construction. At a pinch you could use her as a fleet CV with older battleship units as she is of comparable speed, but in terms of construction she is of much lighter build and lacks important things like torpedo bulkheads. She needs MAJOR work to make her even slightly comparable to a warship in this respect. Yes, you can add hull buldges to mimic torpedo bhds and increase stability etc, but at the cost of speed. You therefore need to install more power to maintain the same speed. This in turn will probably require strengthening in the engine rooms, and on that subject, if you are removing light superstructure and fittings and installing guns, hanger, armour plating, magazines etc etc you are adding some heavy structures to the ship, most of them quite high up. This not only adds topweight but also means that in the affected areas the hull itself will require further strengthening, again adding to refit cost.

To be honest the Italians found this out in the 1930's. They sent in some of their BB's (Conte de Cavour Class???) for major works. They were lengthened, new engines, new armour, rebored guns etc etc etc. The overall time and cost was the same to build a new Littorio Class battleship each, so instead of building 4x they could have built 6x, which arguably would have been better for them!

Same thing here. Only and I stress only if you want a CV very fast would you consider the conversion, so we are talking war already on situation. If you are talking mid 1930's conversion with no war looming, the admiralty would build new CV's from the keel up as they are specific to task and not a conversion which is a compromise in a number of areas at best.

OTL HMS Belfast was mined in 1939. She was reparied and reentered service in 1942 as I recall. At the time there was huge debate as to whether or not to scrap her (She was less than a year old) as the cost and time to repair her was the same a building a new ship to replace her. In the end it was decided to repair her as it freed up slipways and foundary / factory space (Building components for a whole new ship vs only replacement components). Such an event is rare however, and had that occured during peacetime she would have been scrapped.

Just my 2 cents worth & my thoughts.
 
IV

SsgtC

Banned
In October, 1929 the Stock Market in New York crashed. The government under President Wood acted surprisingly quickly to reassure people that things were not that bad. However, economic reality soon proved those statements false. In the United States, unemployment soon spiked at 16%, while the prices of commodities such as grain, produce and dairy fell by 45% severely impacting farmers in America's heartland. Rapid, emergency investment by both the government and large businesses managed to keep several key industries afloat, but at levels far below those of mid 1929. Compared to the rest of the world however, the United States was positively idyllic.

In Europe, unemployment reached 30% in some countries (with unemployment in Russia reaching 38% by 1932), with the United Kingdom reaching 21% unemployment in 1931. This unexpectedly resulted in an increase in passengers for White Star and other lines, as more people decided to attempt to immigrate. Mainly to the United States, though Canada and Australia were also popular with Argentina popular with German immigrants. It was during the Great Depression that White Star's business plan of the 1920s bore fruit. By buying out there smaller competitors, they were able to remove their excess capacity from the market, thus keeping their own ships profitable.

Being in the midst of a fleet update, White Star was able to assist the economy of the UK more than usual. By both buying new ships from Harland and Wolff, albeit at a slower rate then previously planned, and retiring their older ships to provide work scrapping them. This work was mainly performed at Inverkeithing, Scotland and Jarrow, England.

By 1933, the Olympic-class ships were beginning to show their age. Though still marginally profitable, White Star began to see a gradual eroding of the number of passengers carried. This was particularly true in Third Class. Beginning that year, White Star began to refit them, dividing Third Class into Third Class and Tourist Third. Tourist Third offered a slightly larger cabin, more "creature comforts" (primarily in bedding and cabin furniture). While still offering good value. This resulted in a slight bump in average passenger lists despite the ships' total capacity being reduced. Tourist Third was soon introduced across the fleet as ships came due for annual refits and overhauls.

In 1929, Cunard announced plans to build a new Superliner to be named RMS Queen Mary. She was to be 1,019' long, have a beam of 118' and weigh over 80,000 tons. Following just 6 years after the loss of the Berengaria and considering the financial straits Cunard was in having lost several ships in the Great War, this order was surprising. Privately, White Star expressed doubts that the ship would ever be built. However, the mere announcement of such a ship cast serious doubt on the viability of White Star's pride and joy, the Olympic-class. While the refits they received in 1933 certainly helped their cause, the ships were still between 19 and 22 years old. President of White Star, J. Bruce Ismay and Harland and Wolff Chairman, William J. Pirrie, in a repeat of their meeting 26 years earlier, began to discuss a new class of ship to replace "The Reliables." The ship they designed would come to be called RMS Majestic. The order for two ships was placed in March, 1934.

The Majestic was to be 1,050' long with a beam of 126' and would weigh some 83,000 tons. In addition, she would have a power plant capable of driving the ship at 30 knots. In keeping with White Star tradition, she would be designed to be the most luxurious liner afloat. In a first for a transatlantic liner, every cabin on board was to have a private bathroom. An unheard of luxury outside of First Class. The two ships would also introduce air conditioning to the majority of their public spaces. In short, they would ensure White Star's continued dominance at sea for the foreseeable future. There were two things, however that they could not foresee.

The first, in hindsight, should have been obvious. In June, 1934, Cunard approached White Star with an offer to merge. The offer initially took White Star by surprise. Even more so since Cunard proposed that they be the dominant partner in the new company. To say that White Star, and the London Stock Exchange, nearly died of laughter would be an understatement. By July, 1934 with the keel of Majestic having been laid, White Star studied the idea behind a merger with Cunard. While White Star was no stranger to mergers and taking over weaker lines, they had never even considered the possibility of taking over their largest competitor, nor the logistics of what would be involved in doing so.

On the surface, the idea seemed laughable. White Star was sound financially. And was the dominant line on the North Atlantic, along with having a commanding presence on the Australia run. Cunard on the other hand, was struggling. The high costs of running the Mauritania had never really been overcome, the loss of Berengaria to a collision at sea had given them a massive black eye, Lusitania's torpedoing in 1915 severely weakened the company financially. Only Aquitania was a true bright spot for Cunard. In light of this, several members of the Board at White Star argued that it would be better to simply let Cunard go under and buy whatever assets they wanted at auction afterwards.

In the end, White Star came up with what some considered to be the ideal solution. They would offer to buy out Cunard. No merger, just a simple buy out where Cunard would operate as a subsidiary of White Star. Cunard's vessels would remain in service with only a few exceptions (the largest being the requirement that Mauritania be laid up within 6 months). Cunard would be allowed a fleet size of 8 ships (down from their current fleet of 14), primarily to serve secondary markets such as Liverpool and London to Philadelphia and Baltimore. Though Aquitania would be allowed to maintain their flagship Southampton to New York service (though she would be scheduled in concert with the Olympic-class ships of White Star). The ship Cunard had ordered in 1929, still only 17% complete in 1934 (mainly due to financial difficulties at Cunard and John Brown & Company, her builders) would be cancelled. The steel plate would instead be reused to build two smaller vessels broadly similar to White Star's Oceanic-class, though with Cunard styling cues and touches.

Though Cunard's initial reaction to this proposal was broadly similar to White Star's reaction to THEIR proposal, namely, laughter, financial reality soon took hold. Despite initial attempts at countering White Star's offer with a second merger proposal where White Star would be the dominant partner and both Queen Mary and Majestic would be completed, White Star quickly made it clear that the only acceptable offer was the one White Star had made. Anything else, and White Star would simply wait for Cunard's inevitable collapse. Cunard's Board of Directors, though bristling at being relegated to a second-class line, accepted White Star's offer on August 1st, 1934. By the end of the month, Cunard ceased to exist as an independent company. On September 1st, 1934 Cunard's ships hoisted the White Star burgee on their main masts along with Cunard's house flag for the first time.

The other major event was the utter collapse of the Russian Empire in February, 1935.
 
In October, 1929 the Stock Market in New York crashed. The government under President Wood acted surprisingly quickly to reassure people that things were not that bad. However, economic reality soon proved those statements false. In the United States, unemployment soon spiked at 16%, while the prices of commodities such as grain, produce and dairy fell by 45% severely impacting farmers in America's heartland. Rapid, emergency investment by both the government and large businesses managed to keep several key industries afloat, but at levels far below those of mid 1929. Compared to the rest of the world however, the United States was positively idyllic.

In Europe, unemployment reached 30% in some countries (with unemployment in Russia reaching 38% by 1932), with the United Kingdom reaching 21% unemployment in 1931. This unexpectedly resulted in an increase in passengers for White Star and other lines, as more people decided to attempt to immigrate. Mainly to the United States, though Canada and Australia were also popular with Argentina popular with German immigrants. It was during the Great Depression that White Star's business plan of the 1920s bore fruit. By buying out there smaller competitors, they were able to remove their excess capacity from the market, thus keeping their own ships profitable.

Being in the midst of a fleet update, White Star was able to assist the economy of the UK more than usual. By both buying new ships from Harland and Wolff, albeit at a slower rate then previously planned, and retiring their older ships to provide work scrapping them. This work was mainly performed at Inverkeithing, Scotland and Jarrow, England.

By 1933, the Olympic-class ships were beginning to show their age. Though still marginally profitable, White Star began to see a gradual eroding of the number of passengers carried. This was particularly true in Third Class. Beginning that year, White Star began to refit them, dividing Third Class into Third Class and Tourist Third. Tourist Third offered a slightly larger cabin, more "creature comforts" (primarily in bedding and cabin furniture). While still offering good value. This resulted in a slight bump in average passenger lists despite the ships' total capacity being reduced. Tourist Third was soon introduced across the fleet as ships came due for annual refits and overhauls.

In 1929, Cunard announced plans to build a new Superliner to be named RMS Queen Mary. She was to be 1,019' long, have a beam of 118' and weigh over 80,000 tons. Following just 6 years after the loss of the Berengaria and considering the financial straits Cunard was in having lost several ships in the Great War, this order was surprising. Privately, White Star expressed doubts that the ship would ever be built. However, the mere announcement of such a ship cast serious doubt on the viability of White Star's pride and joy, the Olympic-class. While the refits they received in 1933 certainly helped their cause, the ships were still between 19 and 22 years old. President of White Star, J. Bruce Ismay and Harland and Wolff Chairman, William J. Pirrie, in a repeat of their meeting 26 years earlier, began to discuss a new class of ship to replace "The Reliables." The ship they designed would come to be called RMS Majestic. The order for two ships was placed in March, 1934.

The Majestic was to be 1,050' long with a beam of 126' and would weigh some 83,000 tons. In addition, she would have a power plant capable of driving the ship at 30 knots. In keeping with White Star tradition, she would be designed to be the most luxurious liner afloat. In a first for a transatlantic liner, every cabin on board was to have a private bathroom. An unheard of luxury outside of First Class. The two ships would also introduce air conditioning to the majority of their public spaces. In short, they would ensure White Star's continued dominance at sea for the foreseeable future. There were two things, however that they could not foresee.

The first, in hindsight, should have been obvious. In June, 1934, Cunard approached White Star with an offer to merge. The offer initially took White Star by surprise. Even more so since Cunard proposed that they be the dominant partner in the new company. To say that White Star, and the London Stock Exchange, nearly died of laughter would be an understatement. By July, 1934 with the keel of Majestic having been laid, White Star studied the idea behind a merger with Cunard. While White Star was no stranger to mergers and taking over weaker lines, they had never even considered the possibility of taking over their largest competitor, nor the logistics of what would be involved in doing so.

On the surface, the idea seemed laughable. White Star was sound financially. And was the dominant line on the North Atlantic, along with having a commanding presence on the Australia run. Cunard on the other hand, was struggling. The high costs of running the Mauritania had never really been overcome, the loss of Berengaria to a collision at sea had given them a massive black eye, Lusitania's torpedoing in 1915 severely weakened the company financially. Only Aquitania was a true bright spot for Cunard. In light of this, several members of the Board at White Star argued that it would be better to simply let Cunard go under and buy whatever assets they wanted at auction afterwards.

In the end, White Star came up with what some considered to be the ideal solution. They would offer to buy out Cunard. No merger, just a simple buy out where Cunard would operate as a subsidiary of White Star. Cunard's vessels would remain in service with only a few exceptions (the largest being the requirement that Mauritania be laid up within 6 months). Cunard would be allowed a fleet size of 8 ships (down from their current fleet of 14), primarily to serve secondary markets such as Liverpool and London to Philadelphia and Baltimore. Though Aquitania would be allowed to maintain their flagship Southampton to New York service (though she would be scheduled in concert with the Olympic-class ships of White Star). The ship Cunard had ordered in 1929, still only 17% complete in 1934 (mainly due to financial difficulties at Cunard and John Brown & Company, her builders) would be cancelled. The steel plate would instead be reused to build two smaller vessels broadly similar to White Star's Oceanic-class, though with Cunard styling cues and touches.

Though Cunard's initial reaction to this proposal was broadly similar to White Star's reaction to THEIR proposal, namely, laughter, financial reality soon took hold. Despite initial attempts at countering White Star's offer with a second merger proposal where White Star would be the dominant partner and both Queen Mary and Majestic would be completed, White Star quickly made it clear that the only acceptable offer was the one White Star had made. Anything else, and White Star would simply wait for Cunard's inevitable collapse. Cunard's Board of Directors, though bristling at being relegated to a second-class line, accepted White Star's offer on August 1st, 1934. By the end of the month, Cunard ceased to exist as an independent company. On September 1st, 1934 Cunard's ships hoisted the White Star burgee on their main masts along with Cunard's house flag for the first time.

The other major event was the utter collapse of the Russian Empire in February, 1935.

So this means Queen Mary isn't going to be completed?
 

SsgtC

Banned
Correct. White Star essentially forced Cunard to cancel her in favor of their own Majestic-class (broadly similar to OTL Oceanic but with steam turbines instead of diesel engines). Cunard is to be strictly a subsidiary of White Star and not compete directly with them. Cunard will get new ships, just nothing like OTL Queen Mary.

So this means Queen Mary isn't going to be completed?
 
Ok, Ill ask. Why is Russia collapsing? In OTL, even after the RJW, they were improving quite a bit, with higher standards of living, better economic output (partially due to their increased railway mileage) and if they've weathered WWI in TTL, why the collapse?
 

SsgtC

Banned
The problems that led to Russia's collapse IOTL are still present. They had just been pushed into the background with winning WWI. Also, unemployment in Russia is insanely high. Higher than any other developed nation in the world. Primarily due to mismanagement of the economy by the Czar's government. Add in the somewhat tone-deaf response to soaring unemployment, and the climate was ripe for revolution

Ok, Ill ask. Why is Russia collapsing? In OTL, even after the RJW, they were improving quite a bit, with higher standards of living, better economic output (partially due to their increased railway mileage) and if they've weathered WWI in TTL, why the collapse?
 
Correct. White Star essentially forced Cunard to cancel her in favor of their own Majestic-class (broadly similar to OTL Oceanic but with steam turbines instead of diesel engines). Cunard is to be strictly a subsidiary of White Star and not compete directly with them. Cunard will get new ships, just nothing like OTL Queen Mary.
Wouldn't Majestic be a good bit bigger than OTL Oceanic? She was about 60,000 tons, compared to the 83,000 tons of Majestic.
Like the look of Oceanic, but I think the Funnels could be a bit taller, like Normandie size
Postcard_of_the_Oceanic_III.jpg
 

SsgtC

Banned
Actually, no one really knows. I've seen estimates ranging from 60,000 to 80,000 for Oceanic. I went with the higher figure seeing as OTL Oceanic and ATL Majestic are both bigger than Queen Mary in both length and beam while both would have had 12 decks. The Majestic ITTL does have taller stacks similar to Normandie though not quite identical.

Wouldn't Majestic be a good bit bigger than OTL Oceanic? She was about 60,000 tons, compared to the 83,000 tons of Majestic.
Like the look of Oceanic, but I think the Funnels could be a bit taller, like Normandie size
View attachment 329627
 
Actually, no one really knows. I've seen estimates ranging from 60,000 to 80,000 for Oceanic. I went with the higher figure seeing as OTL Oceanic and ATL Majestic are both bigger than Queen Mary in both length and beam while both would have had 12 decks. The Majestic ITTL does have taller stacks similar to Normandie though not quite identical.
Yes, too bad the Archives were destroyed in the 70s
The first design of Oceanic was basically a slightly enlarged Olympic, with a more modern stern.
The second W's a smaller version of the final Design.
Apparently thought was given for Oceanic to have a sister, possibly (unconfirmed, rumoured) to be called Colossic, which doesn't sound like a good name at all..
 

SsgtC

Banned
A sister would make sense, hence the reason she has one ITTL. And I agree, the rumored name does sound awful. Majestic will have a cruiser stern as that was the style then in vouge with British shipbuilders. However, if I could have done it plausibly, they would a stern closer to Normandie.

Yes, too bad the Archives were destroyed in the 70s
The first design of Oceanic was basically a slightly enlarged Olympic, with a more modern stern.
The second W's a smaller version of the final Design.
Apparently thought was given for Oceanic to have a sister, possibly (unconfirmed, rumoured) to be called Colossic, which doesn't sound like a good name at all..
 
A sister would make sense, hence the reason she has one ITTL. And I agree, the rumored name does sound awful. Majestic will have a cruiser stern as that was the style then in vouge with British shipbuilders. However, if I could have done it plausibly, they would a stern closer to Normandie.
I have to say, I like the OTL style stern on her, but maybe it's just because the QE looked so damn good with it...
 
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