Greenville
Banned
Cunard owned White Star and the Olympic by the Great Depression. Even if it gets larger, Titanic will be another ship insignificant in history.
White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been
- Thread starter SsgtC
- Start date
-
- Tags
- titanic white star line
- Status
Cunard owned White Star and the Olympic by the Great Depression. Even if it gets larger, Titanic will be another ship insignificant in history.
SsgtC
Banned
White Star and Cunard didn't merge until 1934. When they did merge, a White Star ship, the RMS Majestic was designated flagship. Cunard did not buy out the entirety of White Star until 1949.
III
SsgtC
Banned
Between 1918 and 1924, the White Star Line steamers establish dominance on the North Atlantic route. Offering weekly express sailings from Southampton, Liverpool and the Mediterranean to New York, Boston, Quebec and Montreal. Not to be overlooked either is White Star's Australian Service, where again, they are a leader in the trade. Though their Australia ships, while offering the same White Star level of comfort, are smaller and are "mixed use" ships, in that they carry just as much cargo as they do passengers.
Beginning in 1920, White Star received an unexpected boost. The United States passed the 18th Amendment and banned the sale and transportation of Alcohol in the United States. What this meant for the Transatlantic trade was that US Flagged vessels were suddenly much less appealing to passengers. The 1920s saw White Star set records for the number of passengers carried.
The 1920s were full of change for White Star. They were the Crown Jewel in International Mercantile Marine. However, the war years and poor management at IMM had forced many changes. The largest being White Star Line being purchased from IMM by J. Bruce Ismay, Lord William James Pirrie and Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon in 1921. The other major change at White Star again had to do with the United States. In 1924, President Leonard Wood announced a new immigration policy for the United States. Beginning in 1925 and taking place over a period of 10 years, the United States would reduce the number of immigrants it would accept by 50%. This would be accomplished by a 5% reduction each year based on the number of immigrants in 1924.
While this new policy was certainly a shock to White Star, and many other lines who relied on the immigrant trade for the vast majority of their revenues, all of the lines felt that they could still survive. In White Star's case, they decided upon a strategy that, at the time, was considered radical. Between 1922 and 1927 they acquired the Red Star Line, Dominion Line and Leyland Line. All former members of International Mercantile Marine. In acquiring these three lines, they removed their ships from the North Atlantic run and began to redeploy those suitable to service the South America and Australia runs while simultaneously replacing those ships with their own vessels, primarily the "Big Four" taking over Dominion Line's Canadian service. They also used their former competitors ships to explore a new market: short "cruises" to the Caribbean for Americans tired of Prohibition.
Of these, the cruises were deemed to be the least successful. Not because of a lack of passengers. But because the ships were primarily designed for sailing in colder climates. However, White Star made enough profit on these short cruises by smaller vessels to continue operating them. They also shortly discovered that by painting the ships white verses the standard black, the ships tended to stay quite a bit cooler. The three most popular vessels on the service were SS Regina, Doric and Pittsburgh. All being moderately sized ships and configured to carry roughly 1,000 passengers in Tourist and Cabin classes. While successful in the sense that the ships found useful employment and that they weren't losing money, White Star had no further plans to invest in this aspect of their business.
It was during this same period of time that White Star began a modest program of updating their fleet. In 1924 White Star announced that Harland and Wolff would be building a new class of 35,000 ton liners to replace the Big Four. These three ships were to be named RMS Oceanic, RMS Atlantic and RMS Pacific. They would be the first liners built to the new safety standards following the tragic loss of RMS Berengaria in March, 1923 when she collided with the SS Greenland. That disaster which cost the lives of over 2,000 passengers and crew when the Berengaria sank in less than 2 hours (and the Greenland in less than 15 minutes) resulted in sweeping changes to the shipping industry. The primary change being that all ships were now required to carry enough lifeboats for every person onboard with at least two of the lifeboats equipped with wireless radio sets as well to aid rescue ships in locating the boats. However, other changes were mandated as well. The largest being a full double hull the entire length of the ship rising at least one deck above the waterline and requiring all watertight compartments to be truly watertight with the bulkheads rising the full height of the ship to prevent water from spilling over into adjacent compartments.
Fortunately for White Star, and for other lines who's ships had been used as troopships in the Great War, their ships were almost entirely already equipped to handle enough boats for every passenger. They simply had to be loaded on board. This White Star did over the following 6 months, though most passengers on the Olympic-class ships were often overheard complaining that the extra boats were a waste of space, as all three ships had proven their ability to take damage and survive.
In 1927, the first of the Oceanic-class ships entered service. 735' long, 84' beam and turbine powered, they could steam at 26 knots. Designed to carry up to 1,900 passengers each, they immediately proved popular on White Star's Canada service. So popular in fact, that a modified follow up class was ordered to replace the ships in service on the Australia and South America runs. This follow up class was to have more open space on deck and a new forced draught ventilation system below decks. The 8 ships ordered added to the three already in service were, at the time, the largest class of passenger ships ever built. The first ship of the follow up class, the RMS Republic, was ordered in 1929.
Beginning in 1920, White Star received an unexpected boost. The United States passed the 18th Amendment and banned the sale and transportation of Alcohol in the United States. What this meant for the Transatlantic trade was that US Flagged vessels were suddenly much less appealing to passengers. The 1920s saw White Star set records for the number of passengers carried.
The 1920s were full of change for White Star. They were the Crown Jewel in International Mercantile Marine. However, the war years and poor management at IMM had forced many changes. The largest being White Star Line being purchased from IMM by J. Bruce Ismay, Lord William James Pirrie and Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon in 1921. The other major change at White Star again had to do with the United States. In 1924, President Leonard Wood announced a new immigration policy for the United States. Beginning in 1925 and taking place over a period of 10 years, the United States would reduce the number of immigrants it would accept by 50%. This would be accomplished by a 5% reduction each year based on the number of immigrants in 1924.
While this new policy was certainly a shock to White Star, and many other lines who relied on the immigrant trade for the vast majority of their revenues, all of the lines felt that they could still survive. In White Star's case, they decided upon a strategy that, at the time, was considered radical. Between 1922 and 1927 they acquired the Red Star Line, Dominion Line and Leyland Line. All former members of International Mercantile Marine. In acquiring these three lines, they removed their ships from the North Atlantic run and began to redeploy those suitable to service the South America and Australia runs while simultaneously replacing those ships with their own vessels, primarily the "Big Four" taking over Dominion Line's Canadian service. They also used their former competitors ships to explore a new market: short "cruises" to the Caribbean for Americans tired of Prohibition.
Of these, the cruises were deemed to be the least successful. Not because of a lack of passengers. But because the ships were primarily designed for sailing in colder climates. However, White Star made enough profit on these short cruises by smaller vessels to continue operating them. They also shortly discovered that by painting the ships white verses the standard black, the ships tended to stay quite a bit cooler. The three most popular vessels on the service were SS Regina, Doric and Pittsburgh. All being moderately sized ships and configured to carry roughly 1,000 passengers in Tourist and Cabin classes. While successful in the sense that the ships found useful employment and that they weren't losing money, White Star had no further plans to invest in this aspect of their business.
It was during this same period of time that White Star began a modest program of updating their fleet. In 1924 White Star announced that Harland and Wolff would be building a new class of 35,000 ton liners to replace the Big Four. These three ships were to be named RMS Oceanic, RMS Atlantic and RMS Pacific. They would be the first liners built to the new safety standards following the tragic loss of RMS Berengaria in March, 1923 when she collided with the SS Greenland. That disaster which cost the lives of over 2,000 passengers and crew when the Berengaria sank in less than 2 hours (and the Greenland in less than 15 minutes) resulted in sweeping changes to the shipping industry. The primary change being that all ships were now required to carry enough lifeboats for every person onboard with at least two of the lifeboats equipped with wireless radio sets as well to aid rescue ships in locating the boats. However, other changes were mandated as well. The largest being a full double hull the entire length of the ship rising at least one deck above the waterline and requiring all watertight compartments to be truly watertight with the bulkheads rising the full height of the ship to prevent water from spilling over into adjacent compartments.
Fortunately for White Star, and for other lines who's ships had been used as troopships in the Great War, their ships were almost entirely already equipped to handle enough boats for every passenger. They simply had to be loaded on board. This White Star did over the following 6 months, though most passengers on the Olympic-class ships were often overheard complaining that the extra boats were a waste of space, as all three ships had proven their ability to take damage and survive.
In 1927, the first of the Oceanic-class ships entered service. 735' long, 84' beam and turbine powered, they could steam at 26 knots. Designed to carry up to 1,900 passengers each, they immediately proved popular on White Star's Canada service. So popular in fact, that a modified follow up class was ordered to replace the ships in service on the Australia and South America runs. This follow up class was to have more open space on deck and a new forced draught ventilation system below decks. The 8 ships ordered added to the three already in service were, at the time, the largest class of passenger ships ever built. The first ship of the follow up class, the RMS Republic, was ordered in 1929.
Greenville
Banned
Merger or it's effectively the same impact. The Olympic was scrapped in 1937, Titanic probably not sooner after that.
Once again, I disagree.
If White Star have a majority in the merger, it changes everything.
Aquitania survived until 1950, and she was only a year younger than Titanic.
So there is no reason Titanic,Olympic and Britannic won't survive just as long.
I'd say sheer age and upkeep costs would be the reason. Liners like the Aquitania were probably kept around because there was only what 3 - 4 major ships under Cuanard doing the Atlantic crossing? If not for WW2 she'd probably have been broken up when the Queen Elisabeth was completed. With more modern and larger vessels in service under the White Star flag and Cuanard trying to keep up, or looking to merge the two then if given the option of an expensive refit and modernisation or replacing them slowly as new ships come online, it would probably be this.
Greenville
Banned
But White Star probably won't be the majority in a merger. Even if Titanic doesn't sink in 1912, it could be lost during World War I or very likely suffer from many of the sam design defects which plagued Olympic for decades and was a reason it was scrapped so young as well. This is the same factor which many cite the Titanic broke up faster than it should've.
Titanic has already survived WW1 in this TL.
And Cunard are after losing Berengaria, which will have massive butterflies for the company, they would be in a much worse position than OTL. White Star are clearly dominating the sea lanes in this TL. So there is a good chance of them getting the majority, being in a better position than Cunard.
Last edited:
SsgtC
Banned
Couple things, WWI ITTL ended 12 years ago with all 3 Olympic-class ships surviving. Also, what "design defects" are you referring to? Titanic broke in two IOTL because her keel was never designed to support the entire weight of stern out of the water for long periods of time. No ship is designed to do that. Third, Olympic wasn't broken up young. She had been in constant service in some of the roughest seas for 24 years when she was retired. That's a pretty good career. She was retired because she was unprofitable. She was designed to transport large numbers of immigrants. When the US essentially banned immigration in 1924, it essentially signed the death warrants of ships built for the immigrant trade.
As for your assertion that Cunard would still be the dominant partner in a merger ITTL, I highly suggest you go back and read the TL. Cunard has just suffered a disaster worse than Titanic IOTL. White Star is also in the process of ensuring they remain profitable despite restrictions on immigration by buying up smaller competitors and retiring their older, smaller ships with new vessels designed to be more flexible with smaller Third Class capacities.
As for your assertion that Cunard would still be the dominant partner in a merger ITTL, I highly suggest you go back and read the TL. Cunard has just suffered a disaster worse than Titanic IOTL. White Star is also in the process of ensuring they remain profitable despite restrictions on immigration by buying up smaller competitors and retiring their older, smaller ships with new vessels designed to be more flexible with smaller Third Class capacities.
Greenville
Banned
Olympic needed constant repairs throughout its life because some from collisions from other ships and also from a flawed design like the bilge keel which never was able to fully stay intact. It was retired largely due to the high maintenance costs to keep it running after so many years plus I'm sure eight years of economic depression drained traffic. Olympic was going to scrapheap then if it had immigrant traffic to assist it and didn't have to rely on the tourist trade. Competition and the cost of modernizing such an old ship also will be its death nail.
Last edited:
Given she is now oil burning this will drastically reduce costs. OTL she was converted in 1919-20 so no difference there and she was still scrapped.
While she may be able to survive a bit longer ITTL, having her survive to post-WWII era will take drastic events (Such as the Admiralty subsudising her as a troop ship), but with other newer and better ships of the same size available, this is a long shot at best. It will take serious events to ensure survival. At 30ish years she is at the normally accepted end of life for a ship in that era. Now a days, large military ships (Aircraft carriers) have a planned hull life of 50-75 years, but when you consider the massive cost associated (Billions of dollars) this is understandable. A civvy ship, not so much fancy hardware = Not so much cost = Shorter expected hull life.
Even within that statement however, there are events that will ensure a ship is scrapped while still in her prime. Loss of revenue, change of mission profile etc. Olympic suffered from both OTL and was scrapped. Heck as another example mid-WWII Battleships had the same issue. Sure, some became CV escorts, but they are overgunned for that and after 1945 not a single one was laid down and the only one finished was HMS Vanguard and she was scrapped in the late 1960's, after 20 years of life! HMS Warspite from 1914 had just over 30 years of life and Vanguard's hull will have lasted longer had she been kept operational (At huge cost!)
Other TLs has proposed the idea of the RN buying Liners on the second use market as a reserve for future need.
And converting them into CVEs, Troopships & Amphibious Transports, and AMCs as required.
Might this happen here?
And converting them into CVEs, Troopships & Amphibious Transports, and AMCs as required.
Might this happen here?
It's expensive.
CVEs - Sure, the hull size is good, but can they take that much top weight? The hull would require strengthening and that effects all sorts of things like stability, speed etc. Nightmare territory for big ships.
Transports / Troopships - Yes, doable as they were OTL used as such, but the maintance and upkeep cost of the ships lying idle may be prohibitive. If you leave a ship 'just sitting' for any length of time the hull has a habit of rusting out.....
AMCs - Again done OTL, with disasterous results! Smaller and cheaper destroyers are much more worthwile in this respect (Smaller and faster targets, carry torpedoes which are a real threat unlike the old guns AMCs carried) etc.
So, moving away from discussion of the Titanic itself, I've got a question about the bigger picture--you stated that World War I ends in a "decisive defeat for the Central Powers in 1917". How different does the geopolitical stage look at this point from where it did OTL? Does the Soviet Union exist? Did Europe accept Wilson's Fourteen Points? What became of the Ottoman Empire?
See my comment 2 posts above yours.
Doable but there is a lot of technical stuff to overcome. May not be worthwhile in the end.
SsgtC
Banned
Austria-Hungary was broken up. Germany was allowed to keep the Kaiser, but had to disarm to an extent, though not nearly as badly as IOTL. For example, while they had to give up their more modern warships, they were allowed to keep some older 11" gunned dreadnaughts. Though they had to give up their entire U-boat fleet. Their Army was also not gutted as badly. Wilson's Fourteen Points were never presented since Wilson was never President. Teddy Roosevelt was President during the war. His version of the peace was harsher than Wilson's but still better than what France and England wanted. But Teddy has more clout than Wilson did, so he was able to get his terms accepted where Wilson couldn't.
The Ottoman Empire is pretty much as OTL. Falling apart. The last Sultan was removed from power in 1921.
Russia is still an Empire, though they have serious internal problems. Being on the winning side of the war though kept the worst of the issues at bay. Russia is struggling along trying to figure itself out.
Japan still gained Germany's colonies in the Pacific. While the UK and France took over the African ones. Alsace-Lorraine was annexed back to France following a popular vote where the choices were A) return to France B) remain with Germany C) Autonomy within France.
The Ottoman Empire is pretty much as OTL. Falling apart. The last Sultan was removed from power in 1921.
Russia is still an Empire, though they have serious internal problems. Being on the winning side of the war though kept the worst of the issues at bay. Russia is struggling along trying to figure itself out.
Japan still gained Germany's colonies in the Pacific. While the UK and France took over the African ones. Alsace-Lorraine was annexed back to France following a popular vote where the choices were A) return to France B) remain with Germany C) Autonomy within France.
- Status