White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been
- Thread starter SsgtC
- Start date
-
- Tags
- titanic white star line
- Status
The movie tended to portray Ismay as a arrogant blundering idiot, and a coward.
In reality, while he did get into a lifeboat, it was only after he had made sure there were no women or children nearby, and he had already helped several into lifeboats.
A great miscarriage of justice, but they needed their scapegoat, and Ismay fitted the bill.
SsgtC
Banned
The lifeboat issue was never raised within White Star. The philosophy that lifeboats were to be used to ferry passengers from one ship to another was reinforced with Titanic. As that is exactly what happened. The ships only carried a full complement of boats during the war years because the US Army just about had a collective heart attack at the thought of losing 1/3 of a division because the ship they were on was torpedoed. But this was a wartime specific reason. In peace time, there is still no reason that people can see for a ship to carry so many boats
Right, so the stage is set for a nasty disaster. The worst I could imagine would be something like the Andrea Doria / Stockholm collision, only this time both ships are fatally injured, have larger passenger complements, and founder in around an hour. Add the nasty list that Andrea had after the collision to both ships, and half of the lifeboats are unusable.
Not that the writer may choose to go this way
Is it really credible that the crew could have controlled the flooding in this way?
I was thinking the Empress might be a candidate, but she sank ridiculously fast, and with a very heavy list.
It is quite possible.
OTL, Titanic continued sailing at 12 knots for quite a while after she hit the iceberg. This would have sped up flooding. With what seems to be a lesson stunned and more assertive, and calm Smith on the bridge he will stop her quickly.
Lifeboats were not launched until almost an hour after she hit the berg.
Harland and Wolf crewmen knew what they were doing, and would have been valuable to the flooding control. With more pumps up and running, the flooding can be so lee enough for the tar mats to be placed over the side. Once They have covered at least two of the damage compartments areas, The flooding can be controlled, and Titanic will float.
Titanic outlasted Andrews prediction by almost an hour, and if there is a serious effort to save the ship, rather than just evacuate, and the right procedures undertaken, and a bit of luck, Titanic can be saved
I wouldn't see why not. Fothering is ancient, and that's what they did. I suspect that had they done anything to try and slow the leak it might have helped. Why no attempt was made, who can say? Regardless, anything stuffed into the hole (From the outside, so pressure holds it on) might at least keep the ship afloat long enough for Carpathia to arrive
Edit: Ninjaed
SsgtC
Banned
If they concentrated all their efforts on only one compartment, possibly. It would have been very touch and go with success or failure divided by minutes. Once Titanic's head was pulled down to the point where water spilled over the top of the bulkhead between compartment 4 and 5, the ship would be lost. IOTL, a couple of things stood out. First, after the watertight doors were closed, the crew took no further actions regarding damage control. Secondly, the forepeak only flooded once water poured in from compartment 2 via the forepeak hatch which was inexplicably left open after the ship was sounded. Third, when Murdoch ordered some crewman to go down to D Deck and open the gangway hatch to load more passengers into boats from there, that hatch was never closed again, allowing much more water into the ship, speeding the rate she sank at. Prevent those things, Titanic likely floats at least 3 to 3.5 hours even without additional damage control.
As to whether fothering the hull is technically possible and if it works, the answer is yes. Fothering has been used for centuries to slow leaks in a damaged hull. Tarring Titanic's hatch covers, 5 of which were made of canvas, would essentially make it waterproof. At least enough to let the pumps get ahead. Titanic also carried a great deal of spare cordage on board as replacements for stays and davit falls, so the lines were available as well. There Court of Inquiry IOTL also noted that Titanic was also rigged with 2 fore and aft sails, though there is no record of whether they ever put on board. So I elected not to use them. In short, it is possible, but the crew would have had to do everything right and do it quickly.
Edit: Ninja'd x2
As to whether fothering the hull is technically possible and if it works, the answer is yes. Fothering has been used for centuries to slow leaks in a damaged hull. Tarring Titanic's hatch covers, 5 of which were made of canvas, would essentially make it waterproof. At least enough to let the pumps get ahead. Titanic also carried a great deal of spare cordage on board as replacements for stays and davit falls, so the lines were available as well. There Court of Inquiry IOTL also noted that Titanic was also rigged with 2 fore and aft sails, though there is no record of whether they ever put on board. So I elected not to use them. In short, it is possible, but the crew would have had to do everything right and do it quickly.
Edit: Ninja'd x2
Last edited:
I speak in relative ignorance about Titanic's design, and the capabilities of the crew.
Certainly I can appreciate that the sinking could have been delayed. Kill the engines immediately, run the pumps at max. I am skeptical about how it could be fothered before the water topped the 4th bulkhead, but ready to be persuaded.
But even if all they do is keep the ship afloat until Carpathia arrives, that would be a huge victory. Most of the passengers and crew might be saved, at least.
Certainly I can appreciate that the sinking could have been delayed. Kill the engines immediately, run the pumps at max. I am skeptical about how it could be fothered before the water topped the 4th bulkhead, but ready to be persuaded.
But even if all they do is keep the ship afloat until Carpathia arrives, that would be a huge victory. Most of the passengers and crew might be saved, at least.
SsgtC
Banned
Here's the thing, when the crew failed to secure the forepeak hatch, that flooded a previously dry area of the ship. If you look at a diagram of Titanic's bulkheads, compartment one was divided into the forepeak and forepeak tank. The forepeak tank flooded due to damage from the berg. However, the forepeak itself was undamaged and not flooding. That would have given Titanic additional time before her head was pulled down low enough to overflow the bulkheads.
Even with all the lifeboats they would not have had time to launch them all in the Titanic's case ITOL.
Yes it was but it's still not the British rules for the number of lifeboats needed. The rules were based on the size of the ship not how many people they could carry and the size of ships grew faster than the rulemaking did. When the Titanic sank it had four more lifeboats than were required by law.
SsgtC
Banned
Titanic stayed afloat for 2hrs and 40mins after hitting the berg. That was more than enough time to launch every boat on board had she been carrying all 64 her design originally called for. However no boats were launched till almost an hour after the collision. In the original post, the timeline for the boats being launched are the actual launching times from OTL.
I am, like Athelstane, unconvinced that fothering would allow them to save the ship, but in the interests of a good yarn always allow a few 'gimmes' in a timeline.
I'd be interested to see a TL where Smith (and Lightoller and Murdock) act much better but still lose Titanic. Fothering, closing the proper hatches and filling lifeboats (rather than Lightollers awful 'Women and Children ONLY' confusion) would save close to 1178 lives in the boats, and if the ship can be kept afloat until 3.30am or so, it would mean some of those in the water might be saved by Carpathia arriving shortly thereafter.
You'd also avoid a problem which I suspect is on the horizon in this TL, namely a worse disaster from naval regulations still not considering that you HAVE to have enough lifeboats for all crew and passengers on board. I suspect this time line is heading for a Wilhelm Gustloff (perhaps without the Soviets) in order to really shake things up.
I'd be interested to see a TL where Smith (and Lightoller and Murdock) act much better but still lose Titanic. Fothering, closing the proper hatches and filling lifeboats (rather than Lightollers awful 'Women and Children ONLY' confusion) would save close to 1178 lives in the boats, and if the ship can be kept afloat until 3.30am or so, it would mean some of those in the water might be saved by Carpathia arriving shortly thereafter.
You'd also avoid a problem which I suspect is on the horizon in this TL, namely a worse disaster from naval regulations still not considering that you HAVE to have enough lifeboats for all crew and passengers on board. I suspect this time line is heading for a Wilhelm Gustloff (perhaps without the Soviets) in order to really shake things up.
SsgtC
Banned
Here's the thing, they wouldn't have to stop or even slow the leaks in the first 4 compartments. They only had to stop the leaks in compartment 5. The damage to compartment 6 was negligible and was shored up and the compartment pumped dry without needing outside help. As long as the crew could get the flooding in boiler room 6 under control, they could save the ship. Forget about the other 4 compartments until you've stabilised compartment 5. Plus, keep in mind, the total damaged area of the hull was only about 12 square feet. Over 300' of the hull, only 12 square feet of it was compromised. The iceberg didn't tear gapping rents into the hull. It popped rivets and opened seams. That is exactly the kind of damage fothering works best at plugging. Once they had boiler room 6 shored up, THEN they could move on to the other compartments. ITTL, that is exactly what they did. Once the pumps had gotten ahead of the flooding in just compartment 5, then they attempted to fother the hull over compartment 4 as well. And if the pumps had started to fall behind again, they could have moved the remaining canvas and carpet from over compartment 4 to compartment 5 to again try and slow the flooding.
Admittedly, there's a lot that has to go right for the crew to save the ship. But short of Titanic missing the berg entirely or just catching a glancing blow with only 1 or 2 compartments flooding, this is about the only way to do it.
I do hope you enjoy the story though, even if it is sightly hard to buy.
Admittedly, there's a lot that has to go right for the crew to save the ship. But short of Titanic missing the berg entirely or just catching a glancing blow with only 1 or 2 compartments flooding, this is about the only way to do it.
I do hope you enjoy the story though, even if it is sightly hard to buy.
The attempt to turn the Titanic to get away from the iceberg played a factor in dooming her. Had the engines either been thrown in reverse or full stop, the ship probably would have survived. It may have still collided with the iceberg but it would have been damaged as opposed to being fatally hurt enough to sink.
A common misconception.
If Titanic had rammed the iceberg, it would have likely bucked her entire keel, causing extensive flooding, that would sink that ship even faster.
Best way to save her, slow down to twelve knots.
The turning circle would be smaller, and she would round the iceberg unharmed.
- Status