Seems a bit unfair IMO (but then I've always preferred a Habsburg Germany with the Hohenzollerns being simply king of Prussia - actually, margrave of Brandenburg was good enough for them, but I've got to give der alte Fritz, although AFAIC the kings who came after him left much to be desired)
White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been
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Seems a bit unfair IMO (but then I've always preferred a Habsburg Germany with the Hohenzollerns being simply king of Prussia - actually, margrave of Brandenburg was good enough for them, but I've got to give der alte Fritz, although AFAIC the kings who came after him left much to be desired)
SsgtC
Banned
Let me clarify a little bit. What I said above is the public reason given. Real Politik says keeping Germany stable is more important than A-H.
Question- what happens to the Cunard Archive ITTL?
I ask Cos the White Star archive seems to have gone missing post the Cunard-White Star merger of OTL...
Also British cities are spared the Blitz in this Alt WW2 therefore thank you for sparing us from the worst of the post war concrete nightmares.
Does anyone come up with plans to Raise the Titanic? I imagine there is a decent movie in that...
I ask Cos the White Star archive seems to have gone missing post the Cunard-White Star merger of OTL...
Also British cities are spared the Blitz in this Alt WW2 therefore thank you for sparing us from the worst of the post war concrete nightmares.
Does anyone come up with plans to Raise the Titanic? I imagine there is a decent movie in that...
SsgtC
Banned
The Cunard Archives are maintained by White Star. Though some documents have been donated to various maritime museums.
No problem! Lol
No. Raise the Berengaria however was a minor box office success in 1982
SsgtC
Banned
I have. And they have partnerships with BOAC, Pan Am and Eastern Airlines. They offer packages to fly out and sail back and another cruise package to fly to the ship, go on the cruise, then fly home. So far it's worked out rather well for them.
The idea of their own airline has been floated several times, but it's been consistently "postponed." Part of that is the amount of capital it would absorb. Part is the fact that with airline regulation still in play, the only routes they could get approved for would compete directly with their ships.
Md139115
Banned
Incidentally, I just saw this the other day again. It was on an older (read: actually good) History Channel program on the battle history of the US Navy. Wonder if I can’t find a clip of it.
SsgtC
Banned
No, I actually have the next post about halfway done. But work and family have been keeping me busy. Plus I have another TL over in Fandom I'm writing.
Didn't they dive the wreck recently? 10-20 years ago that is! I think I read something in National Geographic about it.
Does anybody have a vid / photos of the dive if so? Cheers.
XVIII
SsgtC
Banned
By 1975, White Star Line had undergone massive changes. George Ismay had retired from the board in 1972, being succeeded as Managing Director and President by his own son, Thomas Ismay. In the nine years since establishing a cruising division, White Star had seen the cruising market grow to become their most profitable division. While still engaged in liner service, that service had steadily shrunk until White Star offered only one sailing every other week to Boston, one to Quebec and three weekly departures to New York with two from Southampton and one from Liverpool. With a monthly sailing to Sydney and another to Japan. In 1966 when White Star began offering cruises, they had 24 vessels in service, all but the Adriatic serving as liners. Half of their vessels were now engaged in the cruising market full time. And plans were on the board to reduce the Quebec and Boston service to summer only, cancel the Liverpool sailing to New York and redeploy the ships serving those routes to cruising.
These moves coincided with the deployment of the Boeing 747, a large four engined passenger liner capable of flying over 400 passengers at a time across the Atlantic non stop, by Pan American World Airways. Unlike his father, Thomas Ismay knew that the ocean liner business was dying. While his father was willing to expand the family business into other avenues, he still clung to the belief that the ocean liner would remain relevant. Thomas knew they were a dying breed.
By 1975, both Titanic and Olympic were at the halfway point of their lives and due for major overhauls. While still profitable enough to run year round on the North Atlantic, the decision was made, driven primarily by Thomas Ismay, to prepare them for later conversion to cruise liners. This would mainly involve behind the scenes structural work that most passengers would likely never notice.
That he had made the right decision was confirmed barely a month after Titanic was drydocked at Harland & Wolff. The Italian Line announced that they were exiting the Transatlantic passenger trade and would instead be focusing on cruises in the Mediterranean with occasional cruises to the Caribbean or Far East.
Norddeutscher Lloyd made a similar announcement just three months after the Italian Line's. The only difference being that NDL was only suspending their winter Transatlantic service. During the summer season, they would continue to sail the Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhelm from Bremerhaven to New York. In the winter, they would offer a diverse selection of cruises. The Mediterranean from Bremerhaven, the Caribbean and South America from New York and each ship would offer a "Round the World" cruise, with Kaiser Wilhelm departing from Bremerhaven and Bismarck departing from New York. This cruise around the world would be the capstone to their winter cruising schedule and would position the ships perfectly to resume Transatlantic sailings at the start of the summer season.
In 1976, another casualty of the airlines was created. P&O announced that effective at the end of the 1976 summer season, they would be exiting the liner business. Their ships, which had a large following in the Pacific, would all to be converted to cruise ships with a primary focus on the Mediterranean from the UK and the Eastern and Southern Pacific from the Orient. This announcement follows on from their abandonment of the Transatlantic trade ten years prior.
Fortunately for White Star, their name still had enough marketing power to remain in the Transatlantic trade when others fell by the wayside. The French Line too remained committed to operating the Paris and Ile' de France year round on the North Atlantic. Along with the United States Lines' United States and America the three shipping lines offered a sailing every day of the week between New York and Europe. Still, Thomas Ismay knew that those days were numbered.
In preparation for that, White Star Line began discussions with Harland & Wolff about an entirely new design of ship. This new ship was to be approximately the same length as the Britannic class, but would be substantially wider and would displace far less, reducing the ships' draft by nearly ten feet. The new ships would have the same Diesel-Electric drive as White Star's other ships, however they would have only two propellers and substantially less horsepower, giving the ships an estimated top speed of twenty-one knots. The new ships would also be more lightly built than White Star's previous ships. Unlike their liners, these ships would not be designed with repeated crossings of the stormy North Atlantic in mind. Instead, the ships would be optimized for operations in the relatively calm waters of the tropics.
In a first for White Star, large numbers of cabins across four decks would boast a private promenade, something White Star had determined was extremely popular with those booking a cruise and for which they could charge a premium. Additionally, the new ships would have two separate pools, one on their Lido Deck and another on a new "Sun Deck" at the aft end of the ship. The main dining room would also be relocated from the traditional midships position to the stern. It would also be given a large number of window allowing passengers to enjoy the views of the ocean and ports of call while they dined. Finally, in what was at the time a controversial decision by Thomas Ismay, the ships would not have a class system. All recreational facilities would be open to all passengers, though some, such as White Star's specialty dining options and the ship's spa (still called The Turkish Baths on White Star Ships), would require the payment of an additional fee. The Main Dining Room would likewise serve all passengers regardless of the cabin type booked.
After more than a year of detailed design work and negotiations over the price of the new ships, White Star announced that the keel of the world's first custom built cruise ship would be laid at Harland and Wolff on May 27th, 1978. The ship was scheduled to be launched just short of two years later and in service by November, 1980. The ship was to be named Arabic.
These moves coincided with the deployment of the Boeing 747, a large four engined passenger liner capable of flying over 400 passengers at a time across the Atlantic non stop, by Pan American World Airways. Unlike his father, Thomas Ismay knew that the ocean liner business was dying. While his father was willing to expand the family business into other avenues, he still clung to the belief that the ocean liner would remain relevant. Thomas knew they were a dying breed.
By 1975, both Titanic and Olympic were at the halfway point of their lives and due for major overhauls. While still profitable enough to run year round on the North Atlantic, the decision was made, driven primarily by Thomas Ismay, to prepare them for later conversion to cruise liners. This would mainly involve behind the scenes structural work that most passengers would likely never notice.
That he had made the right decision was confirmed barely a month after Titanic was drydocked at Harland & Wolff. The Italian Line announced that they were exiting the Transatlantic passenger trade and would instead be focusing on cruises in the Mediterranean with occasional cruises to the Caribbean or Far East.
Norddeutscher Lloyd made a similar announcement just three months after the Italian Line's. The only difference being that NDL was only suspending their winter Transatlantic service. During the summer season, they would continue to sail the Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhelm from Bremerhaven to New York. In the winter, they would offer a diverse selection of cruises. The Mediterranean from Bremerhaven, the Caribbean and South America from New York and each ship would offer a "Round the World" cruise, with Kaiser Wilhelm departing from Bremerhaven and Bismarck departing from New York. This cruise around the world would be the capstone to their winter cruising schedule and would position the ships perfectly to resume Transatlantic sailings at the start of the summer season.
In 1976, another casualty of the airlines was created. P&O announced that effective at the end of the 1976 summer season, they would be exiting the liner business. Their ships, which had a large following in the Pacific, would all to be converted to cruise ships with a primary focus on the Mediterranean from the UK and the Eastern and Southern Pacific from the Orient. This announcement follows on from their abandonment of the Transatlantic trade ten years prior.
Fortunately for White Star, their name still had enough marketing power to remain in the Transatlantic trade when others fell by the wayside. The French Line too remained committed to operating the Paris and Ile' de France year round on the North Atlantic. Along with the United States Lines' United States and America the three shipping lines offered a sailing every day of the week between New York and Europe. Still, Thomas Ismay knew that those days were numbered.
In preparation for that, White Star Line began discussions with Harland & Wolff about an entirely new design of ship. This new ship was to be approximately the same length as the Britannic class, but would be substantially wider and would displace far less, reducing the ships' draft by nearly ten feet. The new ships would have the same Diesel-Electric drive as White Star's other ships, however they would have only two propellers and substantially less horsepower, giving the ships an estimated top speed of twenty-one knots. The new ships would also be more lightly built than White Star's previous ships. Unlike their liners, these ships would not be designed with repeated crossings of the stormy North Atlantic in mind. Instead, the ships would be optimized for operations in the relatively calm waters of the tropics.
In a first for White Star, large numbers of cabins across four decks would boast a private promenade, something White Star had determined was extremely popular with those booking a cruise and for which they could charge a premium. Additionally, the new ships would have two separate pools, one on their Lido Deck and another on a new "Sun Deck" at the aft end of the ship. The main dining room would also be relocated from the traditional midships position to the stern. It would also be given a large number of window allowing passengers to enjoy the views of the ocean and ports of call while they dined. Finally, in what was at the time a controversial decision by Thomas Ismay, the ships would not have a class system. All recreational facilities would be open to all passengers, though some, such as White Star's specialty dining options and the ship's spa (still called The Turkish Baths on White Star Ships), would require the payment of an additional fee. The Main Dining Room would likewise serve all passengers regardless of the cabin type booked.
After more than a year of detailed design work and negotiations over the price of the new ships, White Star announced that the keel of the world's first custom built cruise ship would be laid at Harland and Wolff on May 27th, 1978. The ship was scheduled to be launched just short of two years later and in service by November, 1980. The ship was to be named Arabic.
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It's the right decision. Didn't they get in the airline business too? How is that going?
SsgtC
Banned
They have an interline agreement with several Airlines (BOAC, Pan Am, Eastern) to offer a fly out-sail back (or vice-versa) service . They also have agreements to fly to the ship, go on a cruise and fly home. But they don't have their own airline. That's a lot of capital and airline regulation is still a thing. Making entry to the business extremely difficult.
I seem to remember White Star and similar lines also had deals with the major railway companies allowing a passenger to buy one ticket to get train > ship > destination with one purchase. Add the airlines into that and that's a nice package deal for a passenger.
Nice chapter there @SsgtC
SsgtC
Banned
Yeah, they still have those agreements. Their agreements with the airlines are similar. And thank you.
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