Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Ranger Ridiculous]

You make a good point on the cons of Lincoln going after a third term. I'm hesistant to support Grant getting the presidency considering what happened IOTL. Granted things are different ITTL but I'd like for something different then you know things happening like IOTL in case of Presidential Succession except better things happening. Especially with Hayes and Arthur, I'd rather that there be a different president like someone who never was IOTL. At the end of the day this is Red's timeline but I'd rather see different Presidents then you know just following what OTL Presidential successions were with just more successful results. Also Teddy Rossevelt is only a child by this point ITTL so his cahnces are definitely in the future.

I mostly agree with Harrison, Hayes and Arthur. I only bring them up because they got the job in our world, thus merit some discussion. But I do agree that while they deserve note, they shouldn't automatically get the jobs (assuming they all survived the war mind.) YOu're absolutely right about TR, but it's worth noting that he'll be interesting in the future.

The only note I'll push back on is Grant. He's got the name recognition, a (even more ITTL) sterling military record and now has a good working relationship with the Republican party. Basically all the reasons he got the nomination IOTL, but now tripled. And while his presidency wasn't perfect IOTL, he now has a chance to gain valuable experience in the lead up to a potential run. Maybe with him spending some time as an Ohio Representative? Either way, he's got a chance to go better than IOTL.

As I type this out, I'm starting to feel that Grant won't/shouldn't come immediately after Lincoln in 1868, but maybe the guy after that? Maybe one of Lincoln's cabinet gets the presidency, does a mixed job, and during those 4 years, Lincoln mentors Grant for a run in 1872?

Side note, imagine if Grant chose Frederick Douglass as his VP. Not sure it's possible or if he'd take the offer, but the image of Douglass in the White House is amazing.

 

[PRM]

I mostly agree with Harrison, Hayes and Arthur. I only bring them up because they got the job in our world, thus merit some discussion. But I do agree that while they deserve note, they shouldn't automatically get the jobs (assuming they all survived the war mind.) YOu're absolutely right about TR, but it's worth noting that he'll be interesting in the future.

The only note I'll push back on is Grant. He's got the name recognition, a (even more ITTL) sterling military record and now has a good working relationship with the Republican party. Basically all the reasons he got the nomination IOTL, but now tripled. And while his presidency wasn't perfect IOTL, he now has a chance to gain valuable experience in the lead up to a potential run. Maybe with him spending some time as an Ohio Representative? Either way, he's got a chance to go better than IOTL.

As I type this out, I'm starting to feel that Grant won't/shouldn't come immediately after Lincoln in 1868, but maybe the guy after that? Maybe one of Lincoln's cabinet gets the presidency, does a mixed job, and during those 4 years, Lincoln mentors Grant for a run in 1872?

Side note, imagine if Grant chose Frederick Douglass as his VP. Not sure it's possible or if he'd take the offer, but the image of Douglass in the White House is amazing.

You make a good point about Grant. I was thinking what if William Seward became President after Lincoln. Granted he dies in 1872 IOTL but what if he survived a little longer to say before 1872 "I will not run again" and then Grant comes in following your idea. I love the idea of Douglas being Grant's VP it may not be possible but you never know. Nelson Mandela was elected President of South Africa almost immediately after Apartheid ended. (I know that's a different subject and a very different time but my point still stands.) It would also probably be a huge move towards the US becoming a much more egalitarian soceity.

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

You make a good point about Grant. I was thinking what if William Seward became President after Lincoln. Granted he dies in 1872 IOTL but what if he survived a little longer to say before 1872 "I will not run again" and then Grant comes in following your idea. I love the idea of Douglas being Grant's VP it may not be possible but you never know. Nelson Mandela was elected President of South Africa almost immediately after Apartheid ended. (I know that's a different subject and a very different time but my point still stands.) It would also probably be a huge move towards the US becoming a much more egalitarian soceity.

I like the idea of Seward a lot, it also neatly solves the "will the USA buy Alaska" problem. And I could see him signing up for one term before ducking out for health/personal reasons.

Good point with Douglass, it's a long shot, but not impossible certainly, especially with African American men about to become a prominent voting block.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

...That has nothing to do with socialism like at all. Socialism is a political and economic system that supports collective ownership or control over the means of production, distribution, and trade. In an effort to achieve a more fair distribution of income and a lessening of class differences, it places a strong emphasis on communal ownership and control over enterprises and resources. Socialism wants to eliminate the concept of social betters by advocating for more democratic or collective decision-making processes.

Thanks, that sounds a lot better than what I have heard it described as. Perhaps because what I hear described as socialism is closer to Leninism.

We have had a lot of good discussions on who Lincoln's successor should be. Since grants Maine problem was trusting friends that were not trustworthy in government the way they had been in the military, his biggest hurdle will be to eliminate that bias.

I see that happening in two possible ways off the top of my head.

One, he could win election to Congress in 1866 and learn how to deal with political things and not appoint cronies, or,

Two, this more radical reconstruction could find him recognizing that some of his friends are corrupt not during his Presidency by the house they attempt to take advantage of the situation for their own personal gain during Lincoln's second term. This would, at least, cause him to realize that he needed to reevaluate things and maybe turn to Lincoln or someone else for advice more readily. Maybe have someone like Stanton as his vice president.

 

[PRM]

I like the idea of Seward a lot, it also neatly solves the "will the USA buy Alaska" problem. And I could see him signing up for one term before ducking out for health/personal reasons.

Good point with Douglass, it's a long shot, but not impossible certainly, especially with African American men about to become a prominent voting block.

Heck with how much of a friendship Lincoln and Douglas have made over the years Lincoln in his radical old age would probably say to Grant, "Pick Frederick and show those people who have not gotten over the south losing that the days of the old south are gone and will never return."

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Good point with Douglass, it's a long shot, but not impossible certainly, especially with African American men about to become a prominent voting block.

I think Frederick Douglass would be better off in a cabinet position first. Since the cabinet is not yet in the line of succession it will seem a lot less shocking to people and a lot less dangerous if he is put there, and he would just need a majority of senators to approve him, not a majority of delegates at a national convention.

The Department of Agriculture was not made an independent Department until the early 1880s in our timeline, perhaps he could be the first in this time line and assist in the redistribution of lands that way. Plus he will always be remembered as the first ever Secretary of Agriculture.

 

[PRM]

I think Frederick Douglass would be better off in a cabinet position first. Since the cabinet is not yet in the line of succession it will seem a lot less shocking to people and a lot less dangerous if he is put there, and he would just need a majority of senators to approve him, not a majority of delegates at a national convention.

The Department of Agriculture was not made an independent Department until the early 1880s in our timeline, perhaps he could be the first in this time line and assist in the redistribution of lands that way.

So are you suggesting then that Grant make agriculture an independent department early? Because I think it would be a good idea for Douglas to serve under Grant if not in the Vice Presidency then your right a cabinet position

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

So are you suggesting then that Grant make agriculture an independent department early? Because I think it would be a good idea for Douglas to serve under Grant if not in the Vice Presidency then your right a cabinet position

Maybe it starts off as the "Department of Land Allocation" and evolves into the department of Agriculture?

 

[zezia]

Thanks, that sounds a lot better than what I have heard it described as. Perhaps because what I hear described as socialism is closer to Leninism.

Bebeuf was from before socialism was even first mentioned and way before Karl Marx's time.

 

[PRM]

Maybe it starts off as the "Department of Land Allocation" and evolves into the department of Agriculture?

Good idea. But that begs the question when would he serve as Vice President then, Maybe when Grant leaves in 1880?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

So are you suggesting then that Grant make agriculture an independent department early? Because I think it would be a good idea for Douglas to serve under Grant if not in the Vice Presidency then your right a cabinet position

Right. I think that making a cabinet level position of Agriculture would be great. And it's kind of a dig at the planters also. They kept the slave labor down, but now you have a former slave who is heading up a department overseeing agriculture for the entire country.

Not only that, but it makes it less shocking of an appointment if he should be selected as vice president later.

 

[PRM]

Right. I think that making a cabinet level position of Agriculture would be great. And it's kind of a dig at the planters also. They kept the slave labor down, but now you have a former slave who is heading up a department overseeing agriculture for the entire country.

Not only that, but it makes it less shocking of an appointment if he should be selected as vice president later.

I like this idea, it shows that the government is really trying to change the way of how it works when it comes to African Americans. "We want to bring them into the fold." And your right it's a big FU to the planters and I love it. I'd like to imagine Douglas taking a tour of the south after becoming Secretary and remarking, "It used to be that if I stepped foot down here. I could be put in chains again and now I can take a step and know that I and my fellow freedman are free." Do you think there's a chance that if he became Vice President, he could become president at some point?

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

Slight shift in topic, but a more competent and less corrupt Grant administration could spell some more positive relations with the Native tribes out west. Grant was more sympathetic than previous/later presidents and even appointed Ely Parker to be commissioner of Indian Affairs. If Grant is more aware of who he can/can't trust, he can support Parker when he's accused wrongly of corruption (if such a thing happens) and his peace policy can be more effective. Parker and Grant took the military out of the equation administratively when dealing with the tribes and that's a huge step.

IOTL, Grant's peace policy fell apart because... well Grant's second term was a disaster, but here, he can potentially keep that earlier momentum and a much more sympathetic head for the Indian Affairs Commission,

 

[PRM]

Slight shift in topic, but a more competent and less corrupt Grant administration could spell some more positive relations with the Native tribes out west. Grant was more sympathetic than previous/later presidents and even appointed Ely Parker to be commissioner of Indian Affairs. If Grant is more aware of who he can/can't trust, he can support Parker when he's accused wrongly of corruption (if such a thing happens) and his peace policy can be more effective. Parker and Grant took the military out of the equation administratively when dealing with the tribes and that's a huge step.

IOTL, Grant's peace policy fell apart because... well Grant's second term was a disaster, but here, he can potentially keep that earlier momentum and a much more sympathetic head for the Indian Affairs Commission,

I agree. Maybe Grant will be the President who is finally able to stop the fighting between The White men and the first Americans

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

I agree. Maybe Grant will be the President who is finally able to stop the fighting between The White men and the first Americans

I'm not sure he'll be able to do that, there's a lot of bad blood there and the assimilation policy is in full swing. But it's a step and potentially a big one, it might at least diminish the Indian Wars and keep things from spiralling out of control, It might even avoid disasters like Sand Creek and make it so that, if they DO happen, they're more properly prosecuted.

The biggest step though, and one I think might be on the table though is an Indian Citizenship Act ahead of schedule. It would fit with the assimilationist tendencies of the era and could be the climax of some earlier progress. Though obviously, the tribes will have their own opinions on all this.

 

[PRM]

I'm not sure he'll be able to do that, there's a lot of bad blood there and the assimilation policy is in full swing. But it's a step and potentially a big one, it might at least diminish the Indian Wars and keep things from spiralling out of control, It might even avoid disasters like Sand Creek and make it so that, if they DO happen, they're more properly prosecuted.

The biggest step though, and one I think might be on the table though is an Indian Citizenship Act ahead of schedule. It would fit with the assimilationist tendencies of the era and could be the climax of some earlier progress. Though obviously, the tribes will have their own opinions on all this.

Yeah your right. The most that could happen is that things don't spiral out of control. Indian Citizenship act is definitely needed.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Do you think there's a chance that if he became Vice President, he could become president at some point?

That's going to be pretty tricky. He was born in 1819 if I recall, which means the latest he could possibly be elected is probably 1888 - he died some five to seven years later I think..

It's going to take a while for Americans to adjust, that's why I think the cabinet position is best. In fact, it was easier for Presidents to rise from the cabinet then it was from the vice presidency. But Jefferson and Van Buren were both, and it would be possible for him to go from agriculture to state.

A national nominating convention selecting him is going to be pretty hard even in this time line, but at least he would have some hopefully excellent executive experience that is pointed to by many. He would have a puncher's chance, anyway, except that the boxer is blindfolded. but that doesn't mean it's impossible, only that he would have a lot of limitations.

I think it's going to be easier for someone like Booker T Washington who has 30 years to develop a career.

 

[Knightmare]

The only note I'll push back on is Grant. He's got the name recognition, a (even more ITTL) sterling military record and now has a good working relationship with the Republican party. Basically all the reasons he got the nomination IOTL, but now tripled. And while his presidency wasn't perfect IOTL, he now has a chance to gain valuable experience in the lead up to a potential run. Maybe with him spending some time as an Ohio Representative? Either way, he's got a chance to go better than IOTL.

As I type this out, I'm starting to feel that Grant won't/shouldn't come immediately after Lincoln in 1868, but maybe the guy after that? Maybe one of Lincoln's cabinet gets the presidency, does a mixed job, and during those 4 years, Lincoln mentors Grant for a run in 1872?

Maybe Grant gets a VP nod for Lincoln's successor, or Secretary of War? Let him figure out his issues in a relatively harmless position, so when he finally makes his campaign, he's aware of it.

 

[PRM]

That's going to be pretty tricky. He was born in 1819 if I recall, which means the latest he could possibly be elected is probably 1888 - he died some five to seven years later I think..

It's going to take a while for Americans to adjust, that's why I think the cabinet position is best. In fact, it was easier for Presidents to rise from the cabinet then it was from the vice presidency. But Jefferson and Van Buren were both, and it would be possible for him to go from agriculture to state.

A national nominating convention selecting him is going to be pretty hard even in this time line, but at least he would have some hopefully excellent executive experience that is pointed to by many. He would have a puncher's chance, anyway, except that the boxer is blindfolded. but that doesn't mean it's impossible, only that he would have a lot of limitations.

I think it's going to be easier for someone like Booker T Washington who has 30 years to develop a career.

President Booker T Washington, I like the image of that. Maybe he can be President at the start of the 20th century with Teddy Roosevelt as his VP. I guess your right about Douglas's chances becoming President are slim

 

[Tannenberg]

or a Corporatist one if the author feels like being cruel, if not pessimistic

I feel like a Teddy Roosevelt-type brand of Progressivism is going to be the norm in the USA for a long time. Maybe a stronger Socialist Party or a Southern-based populist party that runs on a "We are not Confederates: we just hate the elites" type of stick are going to be the main opposition to this very powerful Republican Party.