Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[AlexGarcia]

But surely we can make it less destructive than the OTL war?

Maybe? The Revolution probably is inevitable due to the fact the Cientificos were basically disliked by the common population, and I don't see Díaz simply accepting defeat to Lerdo de Tejada en 1876, assuming Juárez dies in 1872 as in OTL and Lerdo decided to reelect.

There can be three possibilities from my perspective:
1. A shorter Mexican Revolution: Madero accepts Zapata's demands, and he becomes an ally. Sure, that means the Porfiristas and several landowners will radicalize in opposition to him, but even then, OTL Zapata rejected Zapata's demands, and that didn't stop the Porfiristas to negotiate with Huerta and other people to eliminate Madero. Another way to help Madero is for him to actually order the execution of Felix Díaz in 1912, along with Bernardo Reyes. Nonetheless, both US and German interference will be a problem for sure, and a big one. Madero's biggest problem is that he was too conciliatory and wanted to appease everyone. This scenario depends on whether the US is less interventionist or not, and it's already established that US imperialism in LATAM will be bigger, not smaller.

2. A radicalized Mexican Revolution: this in part due to the fact the US Labor Movement will be strengthened TTL, which means American labor organizations (including anarcho-syndies) can effectively exert bigger influence in Mexico, like the IWW, if it forms TTL of course. That way, people like the Zapatistas or the so-called Magonistas (intransigent anarcho-communists) can have better political and material support. Hell, maybe even there can be a TTL marxist movement that OTL didn't existed (Marxism was not popularly known in the Mexican labor movement, with the anarchists having the supremacy, until the Russian Revolution happened) Similarly, the radicalization of the Left means the Mexican Right will also be radicalized. I see this as the most plausible scenario, but it also means the Revolution can last even more time than OTL.

3. The Mexican Revolution is delayed: the only way I can see this happening is if Bernardo Reyes becomes president during some moment around the 1900's (Bernardo was the governor of Nuevo León and was very popular due to his paternalist measures, but he supported Díaz nonetheless and wanted to compete for the vice-presidency, not the presidency itself). Reyes was not substantially different than Díaz politically speaking, but he was popular within the Army and, as I said before, also had popular support, in part due to his opposition to the Cientificos. Assuming something happens to Díaz (like an earlier death or something like that), and he reaches the presidency, the Revolution will not occur in 1910, but eventually the conflict between him and the Cientificos, initially, and later, the political repression, will basically f*ck him. This is the least plausible scenario because I don't see any way to make Díaz die early aside from making a shenanigan.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Exactly.


Now, that does sound interesting.


I also wish for a better Latin America...


But surely we can make it less destructive than the OTL war?


Of course. Reconstruction also affected Northern States, many of which also expanded Civil Rights, public services, and progressive laws for a while, until they too engaged in a retreat from Reconstruction as the "respectable middle class" came to support laws that discriminated against the poor and minorities as a necessary vanguard against "un-American communism."

Which is why the early days of reconstruction will be so important. The more people see blacks and whites commonly interacting together. They will see it as normal and there will be no going back from those laws.

High schools in Canton, Ohio, Pittsburgh and so on were integrated, the problem is. Those were too few and far between.

It's one reason that baseball and other sports will be so helpful. Of course, there were some leagues that were, but again, too few and far between. And there was too much pressure to segregate them then in the 1880s and 1890s. Now, like in my book on baseball integrated from the beginning, there will be forces pressuring the Majors to remain integrated and any segregationist will have to start their own leagues, which will likely fail. Like I have cap Anson doing.

Interestingly, I discovered in working on a a reboot with an owner or two surviving and Integrating the game, that there was a great ball player in the pre professional days professional days, who was a member of a Rhode Island Colored Regiment. Perhaps one more of my little blurbs now and then a couple others, which will surround something like the first professional team, the Cincinnati Red stockings of 1869, in the follow-up timeline.

 

[Whiteshore]

It's one reason that baseball and other sports will be so helpful. Of course, there were some leagues that were, but again, too few and far between. And there was too much pressure to segregate them then in the 1880s and 1890s. Now, like in my book on baseball integrated from the beginning, there will be forces pressuring the Majors to remain integrated and any segregationist will have to start their own leagues, which will likely fail. Like I have cap Anson doing.

Speaking of sports, what would be interesting to discuss would be whether basketball would still be a thing ITTL with how it was only devised in 1891 IOTL and all that.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Speaking of sports, what would be interesting to discuss would be whether basketball would still be a thing ITTL with how it was only devised in 1891 IOTL and all that.

I saw a video once where the first basketball was a little more on the contact sport side. It has undergone some changes and did in just the first decade.

I imagine something like it will evolve simply because It is kind of logical to try to put a ball through a hoop, but it might turn out to be very differen
Or, a black man or woman might invent a similar sport.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Frank Stewart would one day be lauded by a New York newspaper as the best player in the State, white or black. That would be in 1870, 5.5 years from now. For now, Stewart, a member of a Rhode Island Colored Infantry Regiment, sat in winter quorders in Philadelphia with Octavius Catto.

"Well over a year late a, and I get kids asking me about Union Mills. Not just black kids; white kids.," Stewart said. "We won an incredible victory, but your Institute for Colored Youth is going to have to multiply itself a hundredfold once we get done."

" I think President Lincoln is determined to do that. One good thing having the capital need to move here has done is allowed me to have his ear a little. Frederick Douglas also does of course; his sons are playing baseball with me," Cato said.

"Gave you spoken to Al Reach lately?"

"Yes, we've had some good conversations. Like when Congressman Gidfings played a game on a Colored team in '59 (1), he is ridiculed for playing a child's game, more so when he played on my team. However, it forces people to agree that children do play together regardless of their color," Catto said. He went on to share about his plan to force the integration of Philadelphia street cars in the coming yeand asked if Stewart would return to his regiment.

"I must while people are still shackled. But I respect the work you are doing also I understand why you choose to simply simply organize others for fighting and for after the war. Someone needs to plan for that also.
"How do you think the existence of professionals like Mr. Reach will affect things? It is one thing when we simply play as amateurs. But when money gets involved…" Stewart trailed off.

Catto said they had discussed this. "The attitude of the Republic at this time is that something must be done to rebuke those who side with the junta and the elite down Douth. One of the keys is going to be when the National Association of Professional Baseball Clubs makes rulings. The key will be if they allow our clubs to play. I would prefer that we be championed through all black clubs. But I am willing to compromise as long as they accept that black players will be allowed to play with no strings attached on integrated white teams," Cato explained. He knew that the presence of all black teams might seem a little intimidating, so he planned to continue to promote them as a bargaining chip so that their players could be accepted on white clubs. The NAPBBC would accept integrated teams when they codified their rules in 1867.

Dr. Jacob da Costa entered the lounge in the I.C.Y. where the men were speaking. Catto introduced him to Stewart, and said they'd had some discussions about what effects slavery might have had on some people.

The doctor explained. "I never really thought about it because it was just real life. But I suppose it's possible there are things outside of war that can interfere with the mind the way we're seeing the war does. This is such a new field of study, but President Lincoln beinghere has allowed me, just like others, to meet with and discuss things with Congress that we wouldn'thave."

Stewart laughed at the irony. "Yet something else where the.rashness of the Confederacy in burning Washington may turn out to help promote equality. Someday soon we will have soldiers like me in the same treatments as white ones."

"It might be a long while for that," the doctor cautioned. "I think what it's going to take there is individuals on their own being wiling to sit down to discuss things. I don't know if we can force it, but if there was a way to encourage a study about how ex-slaves and white people interact I would love to see the results. They're going to have to cooperate if they want to eat down there, from what I hear." He went on to share that the girl who had been brought in months earlier was doing well. " But the more I see of her, the more if there's something in the brain. That makes these people get Soldiers Heart that's maybe a little more common in the children. I don't know, I'm trying to understand these connections and it's like i'm fumbling around like I'm blind. You know, I even interviewed the President a few months after the attemptonnhis life - again, a golden opportunity with the government here. And I'm trying to understand why is it that some people can swing a log at an attacker and disarm them like it's nothing and not have any nightmares? I mean sure, it was frightening, i'm not giving away any confidential information there. But, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised that that little girl had Soldier's Heart."

"What do you mean?"

"The President acted on impulse. Something triggered his desire to survive and… I can't explain it. I only know I asked Mr. Catto if he could let me study some of these ball players of his. The president was always a great wrestler. I wonder if there's a link between athletic skill and the brain and Soldier's Heart affecting some people more..."(2) He trailed off and shook his head.

Catto knew what the man was saying. Yet, he didn't think of it as having black men used as Guinea pigs. To him, it was another way to get his foot in the door. "i'm going to find some of the best young minds, and together we can work on it. I'd be honored if you would take on one of our youth as an apprentice."

Da Costa smirked, but he didn't say "no." If a little girl and a child from a study during the Napoleonic Wars were helping him understand Soldier's Heart...

" At any rate, speaking of President Lincoln, he remembered when Giddings played baseball on that integrated team in 1859. i told him that he ought to celebrate. Somehow once the war was over - maybe when the 13th amendment becomes law -by playing baseball on a team that Mr. Reach and I could set up. He is a good athlete after all, and would be younger than Mr.Giddings was by about a decade," Catto said. "Who knows, next year it could happen."

------------

(1) An OTL event, the man believed heavily in integration

(2) It's too early to discover adrenaline, which was isolated in 1901, but the guy is clearly theorizing right - and probably staying up nights puzzling over where the connections are. His discoveries will advance things more than he did OTL, in psychology and otherwise. Red can decide how much.
I'll leave it to Red to decide if Lincoln will play in that baseball game Maybe more likely as just a pinch-hitter, but you never know.

 

[HueyLongsUnderwear]

A little detail I overlooked but that I absolutely adore : during the capture of Charleston , Fort Sumter is bombarded into rubble ♥️

“Sir we’ve been firing on the fort for 24 hours straight , I think it’s gone”

“Sailor I still see treasonous rubble, keep firing”

 

[Red_Galiray]

Well, if the longterm effects of a successful Reconstruction is that the political culture of the United States is more keen on democracy promotion, then you could see more pressure on Diaz to finally pick a successor and step down so Reyes could just become President. The administration in charge could also just back TTL equivalent to Madero.

I mean, the US' ideals of "promoting democracy" quickly tend to give away when actual democracy goes against their designs and interests.

Maybe? The Revolution probably is inevitable due to the fact the Cientificos were basically disliked by the common population, and I don't see Díaz simply accepting defeat to Lerdo de Tejada en 1876, assuming Juárez dies in 1872 as in OTL and Lerdo decided to reelect.

There can be three possibilities from my perspective:
1. A shorter Mexican Revolution: Madero accepts Zapata's demands, and he becomes an ally. Sure, that means the Porfiristas and several landowners will radicalize in opposition to him, but even then, OTL Zapata rejected Zapata's demands, and that didn't stop the Porfiristas to negotiate with Huerta and other people to eliminate Madero. Another way to help Madero is for him to actually order the execution of Felix Díaz in 1912, along with Bernardo Reyes. Nonetheless, both US and German interference will be a problem for sure, and a big one. Madero's biggest problem is that he was too conciliatory and wanted to appease everyone. This scenario depends on whether the US is less interventionist or not, and it's already established that US imperialism in LATAM will be bigger, not smaller.

2. A radicalized Mexican Revolution: this in part due to the fact the US Labor Movement will be strengthened TTL, which means American labor organizations (including anarcho-syndies) can effectively exert bigger influence in Mexico, like the IWW, if it forms TTL of course. That way, people like the Zapatistas or the so-called Magonistas (intransigent anarcho-communists) can have better political and material support. Hell, maybe even there can be a TTL marxist movement that OTL didn't existed (Marxism was not popularly known in the Mexican labor movement, with the anarchists having the supremacy, until the Russian Revolution happened) Similarly, the radicalization of the Left means the Mexican Right will also be radicalized. I see this as the most plausible scenario, but it also means the Revolution can last even more time than OTL.

3. The Mexican Revolution is delayed: the only way I can see this happening is if Bernardo Reyes becomes president during some moment around the 1900's (Bernardo was the governor of Nuevo León and was very popular due to his paternalist measures, but he supported Díaz nonetheless and wanted to compete for the vice-presidency, not the presidency itself). Reyes was not substantially different than Díaz politically speaking, but he was popular within the Army and, as I said before, also had popular support, in part due to his opposition to the Cientificos. Assuming something happens to Díaz (like an earlier death or something like that), and he reaches the presidency, the Revolution will not occur in 1910, but eventually the conflict between him and the Cientificos, initially, and later, the political repression, will basically f*ck him. This is the least plausible scenario because I don't see any way to make Díaz die early aside from making a shenanigan.

Alright I'm feeling ashamed I know way more about US history than the history of my Mexican brothers. As always, this is just speculative on my part, but the first scenario seems the most likely given the direction we're going on.

Which is why the early days of reconstruction will be so important. The more people see blacks and whites commonly interacting together. They will see it as normal and there will be no going back from those laws.

High schools in Canton, Ohio, Pittsburgh and so on were integrated, the problem is. Those were too few and far between.

It's one reason that baseball and other sports will be so helpful. Of course, there were some leagues that were, but again, too few and far between. And there was too much pressure to segregate them then in the 1880s and 1890s. Now, like in my book on baseball integrated from the beginning, there will be forces pressuring the Majors to remain integrated and any segregationist will have to start their own leagues, which will likely fail. Like I have cap Anson doing.

Interestingly, I discovered in working on a a reboot with an owner or two surviving and Integrating the game, that there was a great ball player in the pre professional days professional days, who was a member of a Rhode Island Colored Regiment. Perhaps one more of my little blurbs now and then a couple others, which will surround something like the first professional team, the Cincinnati Red stockings of 1869, in the follow-up timeline.

Yes, it's a golden opportunity to achieve some level of integration. But it's at the same time very difficult. Black people themselves didn't want to associate with Whites, seeing them justifiably as oppressors. They preferred Black schools, Black teachers, Black churches, and, most likely, Black players. A Federal government trying to integrate social settings may find itself opposed not only by White people, but also by Black communities. Nonetheless, this should give way to greater integration, including in baseball, in due time.

Speaking of sports, what would be interesting to discuss would be whether basketball would still be a thing ITTL with how it was only devised in 1891 IOTL and all that.

I don't want to live in a world where basketball doesn't exist... my favorite sport to actually play.

Frank Stewart would one day be lauded by a New York newspaper as the best player in the State, white or black. That would be in 1870, 5.5 years from now. For now, Stewart, a member of a Rhode Island Colored Infantry Regiment, sat in winter quorders in Philadelphia with Octavius Catto.

"Well over a year late a, and I get kids asking me about Union Mills. Not just black kids; white kids.," Stewart said. "We won an incredible victory, but your Institute for Colored Youth is going to have to multiply itself a hundredfold once we get done."

" I think President Lincoln is determined to do that. One good thing having the capital need to move here has done is allowed me to have his ear a little. Frederick Douglas also does of course; his sons are playing baseball with me," Cato said.

"Gave you spoken to Al Reach lately?"

"Yes, we've had some good conversations. Like when Congressman Gidfings played a game on a Colored team in '59 (1), he is ridiculed for playing a child's game, more so when he played on my team. However, it forces people to agree that children do play together regardless of their color," Catto said. He went on to share about his plan to force the integration of Philadelphia street cars in the coming yeand asked if Stewart would return to his regiment.

"I must while people are still shackled. But I respect the work you are doing also I understand why you choose to simply simply organize others for fighting and for after the war. Someone needs to plan for that also.
"How do you think the existence of professionals like Mr. Reach will affect things? It is one thing when we simply play as amateurs. But when money gets involved…" Stewart trailed off.

Catto said they had discussed this. "The attitude of the Republic at this time is that something must be done to rebuke those who side with the junta and the elite down Douth. One of the keys is going to be when the National Association of Professional Baseball Clubs makes rulings. The key will be if they allow our clubs to play. I would prefer that we be championed through all black clubs. But I am willing to compromise as long as they accept that black players will be allowed to play with no strings attached on integrated white teams," Cato explained. He knew that the presence of all black teams might seem a little intimidating, so he planned to continue to promote them as a bargaining chip so that their players could be accepted on white clubs. The NAPBBC would accept integrated teams when they codified their rules in 1867.

Dr. Jacob da Costa entered the lounge in the I.C.Y. where the men were speaking. Catto introduced him to Stewart, and said they'd had some discussions about what effects slavery might have had on some people.

The doctor explained. "I never really thought about it because it was just real life. But I suppose it's possible there are things outside of war that can interfere with the mind the way we're seeing the war does. This is such a new field of study, but President Lincoln beinghere has allowed me, just like others, to meet with and discuss things with Congress that we wouldn'thave."

Stewart laughed at the irony. "Yet something else where the.rashness of the Confederacy in burning Washington may turn out to help promote equality. Someday soon we will have soldiers like me in the same treatments as white ones."

"It might be a long while for that," the doctor cautioned. "I think what it's going to take there is individuals on their own being wiling to sit down to discuss things. I don't know if we can force it, but if there was a way to encourage a study about how ex-slaves and white people interact I would love to see the results. They're going to have to cooperate if they want to eat down there, from what I hear." He went on to share that the girl who had been brought in months earlier was doing well. " But the more I see of her, the more if there's something in the brain. That makes these people get Soldiers Heart that's maybe a little more common in the children. I don't know, I'm trying to understand these connections and it's like i'm fumbling around like I'm blind. You know, I even interviewed the President a few months after the attemptonnhis life - again, a golden opportunity with the government here. And I'm trying to understand why is it that some people can swing a log at an attacker and disarm them like it's nothing and not have any nightmares? I mean sure, it was frightening, i'm not giving away any confidential information there. But, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised that that little girl had Soldier's Heart."

"What do you mean?"

"The President acted on impulse. Something triggered his desire to survive and… I can't explain it. I only know I asked Mr. Catto if he could let me study some of these ball players of his. The president was always a great wrestler. I wonder if there's a link between athletic skill and the brain and Soldier's Heart affecting some people more..."(2) He trailed off and shook his head.

Catto knew what the man was saying. Yet, he didn't think of it as having black men used as Guinea pigs. To him, it was another way to get his foot in the door. "i'm going to find some of the best young minds, and together we can work on it. I'd be honored if you would take on one of our youth as an apprentice."

Da Costa smirked, but he didn't say "no." If a little girl and a child from a study during the Napoleonic Wars were helping him understand Soldier's Heart...

" At any rate, speaking of President Lincoln, he remembered when Giddings played baseball on that integrated team in 1859. i told him that he ought to celebrate. Somehow once the war was over - maybe when the 13th amendment becomes law -by playing baseball on a team that Mr. Reach and I could set up. He is a good athlete after all, and would be younger than Mr.Giddings was by about a decade," Catto said. "Who knows, next year it could happen."

------------

(1) An OTL event, the man believed heavily in integration

(2) It's too early to discover adrenaline, which was isolated in 1901, but the guy is clearly theorizing right - and probably staying up nights puzzling over where the connections are. His discoveries will advance things more than he did OTL, in psychology and otherwise. Red can decide how much.
I'll leave it to Red to decide if Lincoln will play in that baseball game Maybe more likely as just a pinch-hitter, but you never know.

Pretty nice Thank you.

A little detail I overlooked but that I absolutely adore : during the capture of Charleston , Fort Sumter is bombarded into rubble ♥️

“Sir we’ve been firing on the fort for 24 hours straight , I think it’s gone”

“Sailor I still see treasonous rubble, keep firing”

Fort Sumter is much less important ITTL, however, given how Buchanan just cowardly surrendered it and it was quickly eclipsed by the fall of Washington. But here it's indeed rubble by now!

 

[farmerted555]

A little detail I overlooked but that I absolutely adore : during the capture of Charleston , Fort Sumter is bombarded into rubble ♥️

“Sir we’ve been firing on the fort for 24 hours straight , I think it’s gone”

“Sailor I still see treasonous rubble, keep firing”

"Wipe this pathetic fort from the face of the galaxy."

 

[The Ghost of Danton]

I mean, the US' ideals of "promoting democracy" quickly tend to give away when actual democracy goes against their designs and interests.

That's true but its not like Madero was a radical, the American diplomat was basically just making his own call without really consulting with anyone in Washington I believe. Heck, Pancho Villa was America's favorite caudillo for a time so its not hard to imagine a different administration's appointee basically deciding Madero is someone who can be worked woth especially if he decisively moves against his regime's opponents.

 

[AlexGarcia]

Alright I'm feeling ashamed I know way more about US history than the history of my Mexican brothers. As always, this is just speculative on my part, but the first scenario seems the most likely given the direction we're going on.

Don't be ashamed, I admit I'm on the same ground when it comes to Ecuador (speaking of, stay safe, I hope you are ok considering the current situation).

I'd say the first scenario can be plausible if the conditions for American interventionism in Mexican politics are less direct, or if Madero can assure the American bourgeoise that the agrarian reform/other measures that Zapata demanded will not damage them (well, that, or compensate them for the material damage). _Main problem is that some zapatistas basically rejected compensation.

 

[Red_Galiray]

That's true but its not like Madero was a radical, the American diplomat was basically just making his own call without really consulting with anyone in Washington I believe. Heck, Pancho Villa was America's favorite caudillo for a time so its not hard to imagine a different administration's appointee basically deciding Madero is someone who can be worked woth especially if he decisively moves against his regime's opponents.

Possibly, but when we reach the late 19th century/early 20th American politics will be basically unrecognizable, so I can't say with exactitude.

Don't be ashamed, I admit I'm on the same ground when it comes to Ecuador (speaking of, stay safe, I hope you are ok considering the current situation).

I'd say the first scenario can be plausible if the conditions for American interventionism in Mexican politics are less direct, or if Madero can assure the American bourgeoise that the agrarian reform/other measures that Zapata demanded will not damage them (well, that, or compensate them for the material damage). _Main problem is that some zapatistas basically rejected compensation.

I'm okay. A lot of panic today but no real violence where I live. It's scary but life goes on.

I kind of envision this US as actually being more hypocritical than its OTL counterpart given how much more central ideas of democracy and equality will be. That won't stop imperialism, of course, but it'd create an interest in giving it a softer face and less direct approach, unlike Teddy Roosevelt who basically was like "yeah this is our backyard whatt are you gonna do about it?"

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Pretty nice Thank you.

You're welcome. I'll let you decide if you want to thread market like a couple of mine you did.

Those blacks who automatically fear whites as oppressors could play into the studies of stress and trauma, I think it will mostly be in the South. The North may be more likely seen as an experimentation playground for blacks who are will8ng to try and integrate.

 

[HueyLongsUnderwear]

"Wipe this pathetic fort from the face of the galaxy."

“Quartermaster Meigs I want all the ordinance you have ….wait! I think what you heard was that I want a lot of ordinance, what I meant was I want ALL the ordinance we have”

 

[HueyLongsUnderwear]

Fort Sumter is much less important ITTL, however, given how Buchanan just cowardly surrendered it and it was quickly eclipsed by the fall of Washington. But here it's indeed rubble by now!

But it’s the little things that make this the best timeline Red 😘

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

I just had a stray thought. I'm curious how all this will impact Utah and the Mormons. They were for the most part sympathetic to the Confederacy for their own reasons and they had been prodding the US government for a while. I'm not sure what would happen, but i feel like it would go bad for the church. I have a feeling that Brigham Young might find himself up against a US government that is much more willing to smack him down than they were before the war. It could also be the Utah could be a place to send Americans who are viewed as more loyal than the Mormon settlers.

 

[HueyLongsUnderwear]

I just had a stray thought. I'm curious how all this will impact Utah and the Mormons. They were for the most part sympathetic to the Confederacy for their own reasons and they had been prodding the US government for a while. I'm not sure what would happen, but i feel like it would go bad for the church. I have a feeling that Brigham Young might find himself up against a US government that is much more willing to smack him down than they were before the war. It could also be the Utah could be a place to send Americans who are viewed as more loyal than the Mormon settlers.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but IOTL Young sent an envoy to Lincoln to figure out his policy on the Mormons and it was basically “you do your thing and let me do mine” wonder if that happened in this timeline? And the whole Utah War would probably be viewed as another one of the cowardly traitorous Buchanan’s blunders.
If I was Young and the LDS I’d be keeping my head down lest you get a visit from Phil Kearney and play the we were always loyal but Buchanan and his southern goons swarmed us… see we named this city Lincoln 😊

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but IOTL Young sent an envoy to Lincoln to figure out his policy on the Mormons and it was basically “you do your thing and let me do mine” wonder if that happened in this timeline? And the whole Utah War would probably be viewed as another one of the cowardly traitorous Buchanan’s blunders.
If I was Young and the LDS I’d be keeping my head down lest you get a visit from Phil Kearney and play the we were always loyal but Buchanan and his southern goons swarmed us… see we named this city Lincoln 😊

You're right, but it does feel like a powder keg. Mountain Meadows is still very much an open wound. I could see the US government being incredibly tetchy and trigger happy towards any group that feels like a threat to the Union. I could see Utah exploding due to tensions on the ground no matter what Young and the LDS leadership tries. It would only take some Mormons stepping over a line and soldiers getting involved for it to all get ugly quick. I could also see perhaps former Confederates trying to take refuge in the west as it is, and Utah is a VERY good place to hide out. Young might not like it, but it would only take one Mormon family taking in a Confederate war criminal with claims of conversion for the US government to freak out.

Edit: Plus there's the issue that Young a few times claimed slavery was ordained by God and endorsing native slavery. He also tried to make Utah a slave territory. Anyone with a chip on their shoulder against the church could easily turn these against Young and church leadership as a way to bring the US government against them.

 

[naraht]

You're right, but it does feel like a powder keg. Mountain Meadows is still very much an open wound. I could see the US government being incredibly tetchy and trigger happy towards any group that feels like a threat to the Union. I could see Utah exploding due to tensions on the ground no matter what Young and the LDS leadership tries. It would only take some Mormons stepping over a line and soldiers getting involved for it to all get ugly quick. I could also see perhaps former Confederates trying to take refuge in the west as it is, and Utah is a VERY good place to hide out. Young might not like it, but it would only take one Mormon family taking in a Confederate war criminal with claims of conversion for the US government to freak out.

Edit: Plus there's the issue that Young a few times claimed slavery was ordained by God and endorsing native slavery. He also tried to make Utah a slave territory. Anyone with a chip on their shoulder against the church could easily turn these against Young and church leadership as a way to bring the US government against them.

I'm not sure when he tried to make Utah a slave Territory.

The following is from an interview given in 1859 with Horace Greeley. http://wiki.nycldshistory.com/w/1859-08-20-New_York_Tribune-Interview_with_Brigham_Young
...
HG: Are there any slaves now held in this territory?

BY: There are.

HG: Do your territorial laws uphold slavery?

BY: Those laws are printed -- you can read for yourself. If slaves are brought here by those who owned them in the States, we do not favor their escape from their owners?

HG: Am I to infer that Utah, if admitted as a member of the Federal Union, will be a slave state?

BY: No, she will be a free state. Slavery here would prove useless and unprofitable. I regard it generally as a curse to the master. I myself hire many laborers and pay them fair wages. I could not afford to own them. I can do better than subject myself to an obligation to feed and clothe their families, to provide and care for them in sickness and health. Utah is not adapted to slave labor.
...

There isn't any doubt in my mind that Brigham Young was the most anti-negro of the Presidents of the Church (in absolute terms, if relative to the US population at large that point, there might be an argument for Harold B. Lee), *but* if statehood was offered to Utah (with pretty much any boundaries that includes SLC, as large as the proposed State of Deseret or as small as what ultimately became Utah) with the requirement that it be a free state, Brigham Young would have taken that deal in a heartbeat.

But by 1856, the linking of Slavery and Polygamy as "The twin relics of Barbarism" in the Republican Party Platform and the passing of the Morrill Act in 1862 put the Federal Government (dominated by the Republicans at that point) on the path that it took iOTL.

I'm expecting that the events of a more radical civil war may lead to actions against Polygamy and the Church being harsher faster. If the Morril Act is ineffective as OTL because Utah juries won't convict, the replacement laws and court decisions from the late 1870s and 1880s may occur earlier (while BY is still prophet, he died in 1877)
I haven't seen many TL where the 1860s to end of Polygamy go more smoothly than OTL, but a lot where they go worse.

In some ways "The twin relics of Barbarism" are like George W. Bush's "Axis of Evil". Just because you don't align with multiple things doesn't mean they get along with each other.

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

I'm not sure when he tried to make Utah a slave Territory.

He pushed for Utah to pass the Act in Relation to Service in 1852, this would remain in place until 1862 when slavery was banned in all US territories. Most of the slavery in Utah was Native slavery as noted earlier, but there were African slaves as well. Young was the one who pushed for this act in a speech to the legislature and drafted the act.

But by 1856, the linking of Slavery and Polygamy as "The twin relics of Barbarism" in the Republican Party Platform and the passing of the Morrill Act in 1862 put the Federal Government (dominated by the Republicans at that point) on the path that it took iOTL.

I'm expecting that the events of a more radical civil war may lead to actions against Polygamy and the Church being harsher faster. If the Morril Act is ineffective as OTL because Utah juries won't convict, the replacement laws and court decisions from the late 1870s and 1880s may occur earlier (while BY is still prophet, he died in 1877)
I haven't seen many TL where the 1860s to end of Polygamy go more smoothly than OTL, but a lot where they go worse.

In some ways "The twin relics of Barbarism" are like George W. Bush's "Axis of Evil". Just because you don't align with multiple things doesn't mean they get along with each other.

This I absolutely agree with, the Mormons are already on the government shit list because of the "twin relics" connection, and the now firmly republican controlled congress is unlikely to tolerate anything perceived as secessionist. Add to that a much larger US Army, and a US army that's likely to become fairly familiar with counter-insurgency, it places Young, Utah and the church in a very difficult position.

I agree that it would put much of what came later in the 1870s and 1880s earlier, while Young is still alive. As you pointed out, if the Morril Act ends up being as toothless as it was OTL (likely) I could see the troops being sent in to enforce the act and to defend non-Mormons. Young might lose his job as governor (or worse if he's seen as too much of a problem) and may even end up in front of a jury, a jury who has likely already overseen trials of former Confederates. If the lawyer set to prosecute draws connection to Young, slavery and the recent war, Young is in big trouble.

If the Mormons end up with even a tangential connection to the Confederacy, that may spell doom for the church a the US government may decide to put more loyal settlers into the region.

My wonder would be, if Young is killed/arrested/dies early, would there be a second succession crisis similar to how things went after the death of Joseph Smith?

 

[naraht]

He pushed for Utah to pass the Act in Relation to Service in 1852, this would remain in place until 1862 when slavery was banned in all US territories. Most of the slavery in Utah was Native slavery as noted earlier, but there were African slaves as well. Young was the one who pushed for this act in a speech to the legislature and drafted the act.

This I absolutely agree with, the Mormons are already on the government shit list because of the "twin relics" connection, and the now firmly republican controlled congress is unlikely to tolerate anything perceived as secessionist. Add to that a much larger US Army, and a US army that's likely to become fairly familiar with counter-insurgency, it places Young, Utah and the church in a very difficult position.

I agree that it would put much of what came later in the 1870s and 1880s earlier, while Young is still alive. As you pointed out, if the Morril Act ends up being as toothless as it was OTL (likely) I could see the troops being sent in to enforce the act and to defend non-Mormons. Young might lose his job as governor (or worse if he's seen as too much of a problem) and may even end up in front of a jury, a jury who has likely already overseen trials of former Confederates. If the lawyer set to prosecute draws connection to Young, slavery and the recent war, Young is in big trouble.

If the Mormons end up with even a tangential connection to the Confederacy, that may spell doom for the church a the US government may decide to put more loyal settlers into the region.

My wonder would be, if Young is killed/arrested/dies early, would there be a second succession crisis similar to how things went after the death of Joseph Smith?

Ah. I had forgotten the 1852 act. Yup, I literally can't see things getting better for the LDS than iOTL.

Note, I doubt they would move them all to Hawaii. OTOH, if they buy Alaska.

As for a second succession crisis, depends on exactly when Young dies. Young changed the Order of Succession in 1875 (and died in 1877). If he dies before changing the order of Succession, he is followed by Orson Hyde, who died in 1878 and then by Orson Pratt (who dies in 1881). While at that point you end up with Taylor as prophet as iOTL, but Orson Pratt as prophet would be quite interesting (his first wife (Sarah Marinda Bates Pratt) and most of her children became apostate and ended up as an anti-polygamy activist.

Loads of fun!