Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

While we don't have a similar cool tradition in Canada, I'm amused to have done something similar for Christmas myself 😄

Great tradition we should import!



Looking forward to more from this wonderful TL! HAPPY NEW
Let's import it at once :D And thank you very much!

IMHO, the US Army should adopt the Spencer rifle and Spencer carbine as the standard service weapons, while the National Guard and Constabulary receive trapdoor Springfields.
I'm afraid firearms are not my area of expertise either. Any particular reason why the Army and the Public Force should adopt different weapons?

I am SUPER psyched for Reconstruction. Keep up the excellent work!
Thank you :) Your words and support mean a lot.

I think missed this.

I get it, thought it was not something to be expected in the context.
You're right, I missed it.

@Red_Galiray Here we go so just to explain what happened to the Senate Unionists:
The Unionist in Kentucky John B. Thompson retired and is replaced by Lazarus W. Powell from the New Democrats (in the Opposition Alliance), the other Unionist of Kentucky Garrett Davis (who had been elected to the senate in 1860) becomes a National Union man. Both Unionists in West Virginia Waitman T. Willey and Peter G. Van Winkle became Republicans, with Willey only doing so when re-electd. The last Unionist Reverdy Johnson ended up joining the National American Party.
It looks perfect to me! Now, again, thank you for these wikiboxes. I will gather all of them and threadmark them.
 
Appendix: Wikiboxes of US Elections 1854-1864
All credit for these belongs to @AztecFireGod. Many thanks to them!

1856_united_states_presidential_election-png.878334
1860_united_states_presidential_election-png.878510
1864_united_states_presidential_election-png.878511

1858_united_states_house_election-png.878335
1860_united_states_house_election-png.878339
1862_united_states_house_election-png.878341
1864_united_states_house_election-png.878657

1854_united_states_senate_election-png.878332
1858_united_states_senate_election-png.878336
1860_united_states_senate_election-png.878340
1862_united_states_senate_election-png.878342
1864_united_states_senate_election-png.878658

1704055506115-png.878660
 
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I wish that John Wilkes Booth went through with his original plan to kidnap Lincoln in March 1864 despite him being a former fighter and standing quite tall just so that a documentary could be made called Kidnapping Lincoln. Lincoln just barely escapes his would-be kidnappers after beating them all to a pulp.
 
A while ago (last millennium) I was at a lecture from a former officer who'd commanded a battalion in WW2 and a Commonwealth Brigade in Korea. He said he always felt he had to give the most dangerous jobs to his British battalion.

More generally, the various Dominion Corps were often treated as being high quality (often due to being better fed in childhood) troops and used where needed. Not "cannon fodder".
Interesting, thanks for sharing. Also fascinating to hear that they were better fed, perhaps because the British have to import more of their food? I wonder why what sounded like some lack of support for World War II then. It certainly was different than World War i.
 
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Why is it absurd? Sorry, I know little about naval matters...
So far as I understand, it’s just rather impractical in some ways— you can’t bring both of your main batteries to bear on a single target, for example. I only really call it absurd because, for some reason, I find it as strange-looking as I find it visually interesting, but there were plenty of reasons why just about all later designs put their main batteries on the centerline of the ship, rather than one gun on one side and the other gun opposite— being able to put more guns on a target simultaneously is just the one that pops into my head immediately.

Going into why the pre-dreadnoughts were made obsolete by HMS Dreadnought: Dreadnought was such a radical leap forward in warship design over its predecessors because it was the first all-big gun battleship class, which helped with balancing mass, simplifying munition logistics, and eliminating confusion in ranging targets when firing— pre-dreadnought warships usually carried 2-4 big guns of 6” to 10” caliber, and a lot of smaller guns for lighter targets like torpedo boats, usually in the 2” to 5” caliber. The problem was that this would confuse rangefinders, because the splashes of different calibers would be of different sizes and a splash from a 3” gun (for example) might be mistaken for a 8” gun’s shell hitting the water, making the rangefinders think a target was closer than it actually was, and messing up the gunnery crews’ accuracy.
 
I wish that John Wilkes Booth went through with his original plan to kidnap Lincoln in March 1864 despite him being a former fighter and standing quite tall just so that a documentary could be made called Kidnapping Lincoln. Lincoln just barely escapes his would-be kidnappers after beating them all to a pulp.
Lincoln already did beat up Booth in this TL though.
 
Happy New Year people, and Up with the Stars!​

Away down South in the land of traitors
Rattlesnakes and alligators
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)

Where cotton's king and men are chattels
Union boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
 
Happy New Years, people!
Huh, that reminds me of a TL by @Paradox-less (who sadly seems not active anymore) where Chile and the US went to war and Chile whooped the US' ass because its fleet was just so much better.
Honestly pretty plausible. According to one book, the Chilean Navy was so good that some ambitious Chileans supposedly considered taking the Philippines for themselves from the Spanish in the 1880s. The Chilean Navy was the most modern navy in the Western Hemisphere at the time, with three ships: casemate ships Almirante and Blanco Encalada, and the turret ship Huáscar, being untouchable. Arguably Brazil was more impressive in that they could build their own armored warships, though the cruiser Almirante Tamandaré showed the limitations of Brazilian home industry.

This means that a more stable Spain could have held its own... hm.
Seriously, the US Navy could have suffered a bloody nose - they would probably win on the weight of numbers but should have made less gains, especially the Philippines. Had the Spanish any budget in the Philippines, they could have put up a really tough resistance. Manila Bay, by geography, was formidable, with heavy cannon and naval mines capable of blocking the entrance. They just did not have the budget to do that. Dewey's easy victory at Manila Bay was also due to incredibly poor tactical decisions made by his Spanish counterpart: Spanish coastal batteries literally could not depress their guns to support their comrades, there was no lookout for when the American ships entered the bay, etc, horrendous gunnery by the Spanish (even though the Americans had only a 2.5% hit rate on stationary ships).

I did wargame the naval war of the Spanish-American War with a friend, wherein the Spanish were permitted to have actual shells (supposedly most of the Spanish shells were filled with sawdust), were actually armed (Cristóbal Colón - the most modern warship Spain sent to Cuba was not even armed with her 10 inch main armament) and allowing them to run at maximum theoretical speed (some Spanish ships used subpar coal allowing the US Navy to run them down in a pursuit). The results were still the same: the US Navy, by weight of numbers and superior gunnery (more like the Spanish still had gunnery penalty), won out but at a heavier cost to OTL.

One aspect that really interested me was the usage of destroyers and how lacking the US Navy was in screens. The scenario assumed that both sides had functioning torpedoes (then called the locomotive or fish) and were trained on the usage in combat. Influenced by the Jeune Ecole, Spain had quite a few destroyers and torpedo boats. Although the US battleships and cruisers could put down heavy firepower to sink these destroyers and torpedo boats, a torpedo hit would have been devastating to the ship, especially since this was before underwater protection was commonplace. The most embarrassing incident was the loss of 2 Indiana-class battleships to these destroyers after I had dismissed the attack as plainly suicidal - it was but they exchanged 3 destroyers for 2 battleships.
 
I wish that John Wilkes Booth went through with his original plan to kidnap Lincoln in March 1864 despite him being a former fighter and standing quite tall just so that a documentary could be made called Kidnapping Lincoln. Lincoln just barely escapes his would-be kidnappers after beating them all to a pulp.
He decided against that plot both IOTL and ITTL because Booth was essentially a coward.

@Red_Galiray It was a pleasure to help with the wikis and I hope to continue following the series into Reconstruction.
Thank you for your support and help!

So far as I understand, it’s just rather impractical in some ways— you can’t bring both of your main batteries to bear on a single target, for example. I only really call it absurd because, for some reason, I find it as strange-looking as I find it visually interesting, but there were plenty of reasons why just about all later designs put their main batteries on the centerline of the ship, rather than one gun on one side and the other gun opposite— being able to put more guns on a target simultaneously is just the one that pops into my head immediately.

Going into why the pre-dreadnoughts were made obsolete by HMS Dreadnought: Dreadnought was such a radical leap forward in warship design over its predecessors because it was the first all-big gun battleship class, which helped with balancing mass, simplifying munition logistics, and eliminating confusion in ranging targets when firing— pre-dreadnought warships usually carried 2-4 big guns of 6” to 10” caliber, and a lot of smaller guns for lighter targets like torpedo boats, usually in the 2” to 5” caliber. The problem was that this would confuse rangefinders, because the splashes of different calibers would be of different sizes and a splash from a 3” gun (for example) might be mistaken for a 8” gun’s shell hitting the water, making the rangefinders think a target was closer than it actually was, and messing up the gunnery crews’ accuracy.
Huh, I see. That's why Dreadnoughts were such a big deal in that era, including the many naval arms races.

Happy New Years, people!

Honestly pretty plausible. According to one book, the Chilean Navy was so good that some ambitious Chileans supposedly considered taking the Philippines for themselves from the Spanish in the 1880s. The Chilean Navy was the most modern navy in the Western Hemisphere at the time, with three ships: casemate ships Almirante and Blanco Encalada, and the turret ship Huáscar, being untouchable. Arguably Brazil was more impressive in that they could build their own armored warships, though the cruiser Almirante Tamandaré showed the limitations of Brazilian home industry.


Seriously, the US Navy could have suffered a bloody nose - they would probably win on the weight of numbers but should have made less gains, especially the Philippines. Had the Spanish any budget in the Philippines, they could have put up a really tough resistance. Manila Bay, by geography, was formidable, with heavy cannon and naval mines capable of blocking the entrance. They just did not have the budget to do that. Dewey's easy victory at Manila Bay was also due to incredibly poor tactical decisions made by his Spanish counterpart: Spanish coastal batteries literally could not depress their guns to support their comrades, there was no lookout for when the American ships entered the bay, etc, horrendous gunnery by the Spanish (even though the Americans had only a 2.5% hit rate on stationary ships).

I did wargame the naval war of the Spanish-American War with a friend, wherein the Spanish were permitted to have actual shells (supposedly most of the Spanish shells were filled with sawdust), were actually armed (Cristóbal Colón - the most modern warship Spain sent to Cuba was not even armed with her 10 inch main armament) and allowing them to run at maximum theoretical speed (some Spanish ships used subpar coal allowing the US Navy to run them down in a pursuit). The results were still the same: the US Navy, by weight of numbers and superior gunnery (more like the Spanish still had gunnery penalty), won out but at a heavier cost to OTL.

One aspect that really interested me was the usage of destroyers and how lacking the US Navy was in screens. The scenario assumed that both sides had functioning torpedoes (then called the locomotive or fish) and were trained on the usage in combat. Influenced by the Jeune Ecole, Spain had quite a few destroyers and torpedo boats. Although the US battleships and cruisers could put down heavy firepower to sink these destroyers and torpedo boats, a torpedo hit would have been devastating to the ship, especially since this was before underwater protection was commonplace. The most embarrassing incident was the loss of 2 Indiana-class battleships to these destroyers after I had dismissed the attack as plainly suicidal - it was but they exchanged 3 destroyers for 2 battleships.
Oh, the late 19th century just seemed like such a promising time for South America... at least Southern South America.

Poor Spain, it really just completely fumbled the war with the US.
 
Interesting, thanks for sharing. Also fascinating to hear that they were better fed, perhaps because the British have to import more of their food? I wonder why what sounded like some lack of support for World War II then. It certainly was different than World War i.
Rationing in WW1 then the 20s (reasonably ok) but then the 30s and hunger for much of the northern working class in Britain.

(As an aside, as early as the 2nd Boer War 1899, the army had to reject 1 in 3 working class volunteers failed the Army medical (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zmgxsbk/revision/7) there were voices from the Army calling for better nutrition to ensure they would be able to recruit for a big war)
 
As I said before, the reason the Republic killed Maximilian was to gain legitimacy: imagine having a civil war as a result of a foreign power invading you to support a political faction that is not in good terms with you, and once you win after so many sacrifices, blood and sweat you decide to let the leader such foreign power live and being exiled. You will not only not gain legitimacy, but all the sacrifices made would have been in vain. Why do you think Juarez's government declined to let Maximilian alive, even with basically all of Europe and the United States pleading the Republicans to let Maximilian alive?
[...] However, Juarez had postponed Maximilian's execution. The final shot against the Austrian prince can only be understood as "hasty" if we consider Juarez's resistance to the torrent of petitions for clemency and his refusal to meet with Maximilian before and after the Archduke's capture on May 15 (among the petitions were letters from U.S. Secretary of State Seward, the Prussian minister and the U.S. press), as well as his two refusals to grant a pardon between Maximilian's trial on June 12 and his execution on June 19. Other letters requesting clemency for Maximilian did not reach their destination until after the Archduke's death, so perhaps they also contributed to the impression that Maximilian was executed in "haste". Among these letters were those of Giuseppe Garibaldi, Victor Hugo and Maximilian's brother, Franz Joseph.


Another thing here is that it was better for the US interests (using the Monroe Doctrine) for Juárez to win.​
Various political actors benefited from this expansionist scheme. During the U.S. Civil War, Mexican imperialists took advantage of the alliance with the U.S. Confederates to support the imperialist cause and weaken that of a unified United States. In Nuevo León and Coahuila, Mexican states on the Texas border, and in Tamaulipas on the Gulf Coast, Santiago Vidaurri helped the Confederates by sending war supplies from Europe to the southern U.S. states in the early 1860s. In early 1864, Napoleon and his advisors proposed the establishment of a French "duchy": this would contain vast mineral resources distributed throughout the northern half of Mexico, and would be ceded to France as a bastion against American invasion and as a way to encourage European immigration. Although Maximilian rejected this plan (much to Napoleon's anger), the Mexican "emperor" enacted a law encouraging Confederate immigration to Mexico, a law that included an unpopular clause allowing slave owners to keep their slaves in their new place of residence.


And:
Specifically, what condemned Maximilian was sovereignty as a policy, belief and revolutionary stance in general, and not simply Juarez or the people of Mexico. Any territory unwilling to recognize the right of Mexicans to sovereignty over Maximilian's monarchy would be deprived of diplomatic relations with Mexico.

Radical Republicans in the U.S. Congress would take up the same arguments. In his address to the House on July 4, 1867, two weeks after the execution, Republican Congressman Zachariah Chandler argued that Maximilian was not only a "filibuster" beyond the bounds of legality, but that his "election" in Mexico had been as ridiculous as his governmental control over the country. And, most importantly, Maximilian's 1865 decree condemning to death anyone who took up arms against the empire, which threatened imprisonment within 24 hours of the decree's promulgation, equated his occupation to a dictatorship that went against all laws of family, society and humanity. The decree, "barbarous" and "inhuman," allowed that "the mother protecting her own child, engaged in patriotically fighting for her government and country, could be executed by the arresting officer. Had there ever been such a decree in a civilized age?"


[...]
In the same session of Congress, Republican Congressman James Nye went even further and pointed out the hypocrisy of Europe and the U.S. in expressing any opinion about Mexico's treatment of its wartime enemies:
"[...] what business is it of ours or of the governments of Europe how Mexico treats its adversaries? We would not allow them to interfere in our affairs. Suppose, for instance, that come the final encounter in our country, when Grant had them against the wall at Richmond, England, France, Prussia and Austria had got together and said, "Blood is going to be shed here; some of you are going to die, stop where you are, wait for the sake of humanity," or that they said, as in fact they did say, "You can get Mr. Davis, and if you do, for God's sake, don't execute him." What would our people say to that? "Stand aside; we will solve our own problems: we are the judges of our own affairs."
[...]
Even Nye, who had ostensibly defended Mexico's right to "mind its own business," concluded his speech to Congress by emphasizing the fact that Mexico's autonomy depended, ironically, on U.S. control:
"[...] on the map of this continent it is written that [Mexico] is ours, and we are going to have it [...] do not permit a foreign caretaker for Mexico; if it needs one, we will take care of it ourselves. We will not try to establish an imperial power, but we will try what we can do: to raise the average of their intelligence and increase their love for republican institutions. For now, the obligation of the United States is that of a great teacher; in fact, I may say that today the United States is a great missionary [...] that, sir, is the way I would conquer Mexico. I would conquer it with our divine principles.

In short: OTL, the Radical Republicans compared the Mexican situation with their own civil war, with Grant himself seeing the Second Empire as an extension of the Confederation. This timeline involves the Radical Republicans becoming even stronger, and with an extremely weak Democratic Party (if it can be named like that and not several parties claiming to be successors of such party), so the American policy towards Mexico will be heavily in support of Maximilian's execution as a result of the Monroe Doctrine (and the comparisons between the Second Empire and the Confederacy), in one hand, and in the other, Mexico being part of the US sphere of influence, if not a puppet.

Maximilian is f*cked, no matter what.

Source: Click here (in Spanish)
Well...shit. I assume that, whatever the reasons for Max to stick around and get caught in the first place (I honestly have no idea. Did he just not know how fragile his rule actually was?), they're gonna still be valid and won't have been butterflied away with any believability?
 
Curiousity on the Overton window on the Radical Republicans here. Do *any* of them support having interracial marriage?
 
Well...shit. I assume that, whatever the reasons for Max to stick around and get caught in the first place (I honestly have no idea. Did he just not know how fragile his rule actually was?), they're gonna still be valid and won't have been butterflied away with any believability?
Is it possible that Max felt guilty about abandoning to their (eventual and ultimate) fates the likes of supporters such as Generals Miramon and Tomas Mejia?
 
Well...shit. I assume that, whatever the reasons for Max to stick around and get caught in the first place (I honestly have no idea. Did he just not know how fragile his rule actually was?), they're gonna still be valid and won't have been butterflied away with any believability?
As far as I'm concerned, Maximilian demanded a plebiscite to be made in the territories occupied by the French and the Mexican collabs, to see if the Mexican populace supported the establishment of the Empire with him being the Emperor, as his requisite for him to accept the Crown. The plebiscite was made in Mexico City and other close towns and apparently the "YES" option won, but there have been discussions over if the Conservatives falsified the results or not, especially because the existence of Republican guerrillas.
 
Well, I caught up to this timeline (because I received no notifications) only to be encountered by an even harder discourse to spare Maximilian, despite everyone already knowing that he was majorly fucked with a more radicalized Lincoln and a Union that is thoroughly tired of the French Empire and their machinations in the Americas. He's a dead man walking and I can only hope that Juarez executes him without remorse to shock the European nobility that supported a conservative monarchist regime and the Confederacy. Moving on.

So far, Lincoln winning 1864 is an expected outcome, but to see American public opinion shift so strongly against the Chesnuts / National Union despite them screaming appeals to racism at the top of their lungs gives me so much hope for a better future in late 19th century America. Before the war, people would've listened to their rhetoric but after what the Confederacy has done and how thoroughly toxic white supremacy truly is to a society, working and living with free blacks doesn't seem to be a bad idea after all.

It will be long before true equality and civil rights are reached, but this is a good start.

As for Reconstruction, I do hope we see socialist / labor politics become more heated in post-Civil War America as free blacks and worker's rights become even more important in a rapidly industrializing country. Maybe we'll see Karl Marx visit America in person?
 
Well, I caught up to this timeline (because I received no notifications) only to be encountered by an even harder discourse to spare Maximilian, despite everyone already knowing that he was majorly fucked with a more radicalized Lincoln and a Union that is thoroughly tired of the French Empire and their machinations in the Americas. He's a dead man walking and I can only hope that Juarez executes him without remorse to shock the European nobility that supported a conservative monarchist regime and the Confederacy. Moving on.

So far, Lincoln winning 1864 is an expected outcome, but to see American public opinion shift so strongly against the Chesnuts / National Union despite them screaming appeals to racism at the top of their lungs gives me so much hope for a better future in late 19th century America. Before the war, people would've listened to their rhetoric but after what the Confederacy has done and how thoroughly toxic white supremacy truly is to a society, working and living with free blacks doesn't seem to be a bad idea after all.

It will be long before true equality and civil rights are reached, but this is a good start.

As for Reconstruction, I do hope we see socialist / labor politics become more heated in post-Civil War America as free blacks and worker's rights become even more important in a rapidly industrializing country. Maybe we'll see Karl Marx visit America in person?
putting the red in red galiray
 
As for Reconstruction, I do hope we see socialist / labor politics become more heated in post-Civil War America as free blacks and worker's rights become even more important in a rapidly industrializing country. Maybe we'll see Karl Marx visit America in person?
Probably not, especially because Marx had other things to do (organize the First International and/or write Das Kapital, for example).
What I can actually see is the Workingmen' Party of the US (and its successor, the Socialist Labor Party, and by definition, the DeLeonists) becoming stronger: thanks to a successful Reconstruction, as you mention correctly, labour politics will be heated, in part due to the rapid proletarization of both poor whites and blacks in the Deep South. If the WPUS/SLP play fine their cards, they can become an important party during the 1890's, assuming the GOP sidelines its Labor faction.
 
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