It's honestly hilarious just how badly they self deluded themselves at times. Especially when later on, they tried recruiting slave soliders. Which was such a toothless act to be near worthless, and despite that, barely passed AND took place in like the twilight months of the war for them.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Bookmark1995
Banned
But would that have actually worked if given time? Would Jimmy the chattel slave fought the mean man wiping his grandma to death? And wouldn't a lot of white people go ballistic over a group of black men being given guns?
Yeah, those are also kinda issues that they never really wanted to address.
Especially since the alternative was just..... do nothing, and get freed when the Union boys arrive.
Bookmark1995
Banned
But that would be a hilarious twist if in some AU textbook, people will write about how in order to save itself, the Confederacy liberated the slaves, the very reason they kickstarted their rebellion.
On the point of a single gauge, I'd point out that Southern railroads were actually more standardized than that of the North. The North had 11 different gauges while the South only had 2 (4 foot, 8 1/2 inch in Virginia and North Carolina, and 5 feet in TN, MS, LA, AL, GA, FL, SC and some railroads in Virginia). The more serious issue would be getting the railroads of many different companies to work as one, which North successfully solved and the South didn't. In the North, all of the Northern railroad companies and captured Southern railroads were effectively part of a centralized military organization. In the South, on the basis of state's rights, the Confederate government created a very weak bureau to coordinate movements over railroads, which is utterly absurd when you take into consideration that the Confederate government was willing to trample over state's rights on conscription and taxation, but railroads? No, sir.
In the North, the northern railroad companies made military traffic top priority because of the U.S. government's willingness to pay more than the standard rates and threats of military takeover if they didn't comply. In the South, the Confederate government successfully negotiated for railroads to charge a rate lower than standard, but that made the Confederate railroads prefer civilian cargo over military. The lack of centralization also made movement of goods and troops much more chaotic.
Another, perhaps even more important, issue is wear and tear. Despite all of the inefficiencies and ineffective control from the top, it could actually be said that from 1861-1863 most of the military railroad triumphs were Southern. There was Joe Johnston's railroad move to Bull Run in 1861, Bragg's railroad movement from Tupelo to Chattanooga in 1862 for the invasion of Kentucky (which was the largest military rail movement of the war) and Longstreet's timely arrival by rail to the battle of Chickamauga in 1863. That said, by 1863, the Confederate railroad system was undeniably dying. There was no stockpile of new rail to replace worn out tracks, forcing trains to run slower and thus reduced the amount of cargo delivered. The South could, in 1860, produce only 26,000 tons of rail, barely half of what was needed to maintain the rail system (49,500). The South previously imported rail from the U.K. and the North (which produced 222,000 tons per year). Importing from the U.K. was not an option, given that rail was a high-bulk, low-value cargo.
The only option left for the Southerners was to cannibalize other less used railroads, which in turn contributed to hunger in cities and the armies in 1864-65. By this point, some cotton fields had been replaced with food crops, but that was pointless if the crops could not be sent from the farm to the cities and armies in time. Speaking of which, if they were willing to cannibalize lesser used railroads over the protests of the owners, why didn't they centralize the railroad process from the start?
On the point of expansion, well, the only states not connected to the CSA railroad network is Texas and Florida, neither of which were particularly decisive theaters and already gave up whatever manpower they could spare to the rest of the Confederacy. In retrospect, a direct railroad from Middle Tennessee to Jackson, Mississippi would have been immensely valuable to counter a Vicksburg campaign* and a railroad connecting Florida and Georgia would have provided another source of red meat other than the Trans-Mississippi. That said, while the latter has been proven to be economically viable, it seems the former has never been considered, which makes sense since that part of Middle Mississippi was known as the "Barrens" back then and today. Such a railroad would probably be unprofitable.
*During the Vicksburg Campaign, even though Shelbyville, TN and Jackson, MS were 400 miles apart, a transfer on the available existing infrastructure required a trip of something close to 800 miles in reality.
Even better, said slaves then deliberately turn on the leaders of the army.
Aide: Good news and bad news, President Davis, which do you want first?
Davis: the good news.
Aide: Braxton Bragg is dead, Sir.
Davis: I said- well, okay, I guess you're right. He hadn't been very good the whole 2 years I had him in charge; now I don't have to fire him. What's the bad news?
Aide: The Army he was commanded just lost 15,000 men.
Davis: What?! How can that be, last I heard there were no Union forces int he area except for a skirmish with a few hundred cavalry.
Aide: Several thousand of them did desert, Sir.
Davis: Well, that part's good news in a way, I guess, they were in Georgia and Governor Brown's been on my tail to let some people go back there so they can harvest some food, maybe he'll be happy for a little while.
Aide: Actually, it's bad news, Sir, they were the slaves we recruited; and they were responsible for the other 10,000 or so deaths before the survivors fled north to join the Union Army.
Davis: What? How could we let this happen?
Aide: You'll have to ask the highest ranking captain who has now had to fill Bragg's shoes, Sir. (Davis does a facepalm) But, look at it this way, Sir; he's probably better than Bragg.
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That was a commonly held discussion point at the time, yes.
How to salvage their "special privileges'" vs "Oh god oh god, we need men and nobody's signing up".
I never understood why that was never a bigger thing throughout much of history since women are plenty capable and it essentially doubles your potential for troops. I get “gender roles” may have played a part as well as needing people at home to keep food and industry running but even a few hundred or thousand extra troops here or there could have had a huge impact on battles.
I don't think so because they didn't want to imagine their precious Southern Belles in the field. Some shit just wasn't done. Like I said, they barely got the idea of African American troops passed in their congress. And that had so many carve outs it was basically this side of worthless.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Yes, the Confederates were not fools, and they could be very ingenious and hardworking when they put their minds to it.
But the industrial superiority of the North was something that would've been difficult to overcome, especially with Sherman and his buddies tearing up the track mercilessly.
Bookmark1995
Banned
OTL, women were not even trusted with the right to vote. In the movie Lincoln, one of the congressmen opposes the 13th amendment, believing it could eventually lead to (shudder) women voting.
Sexism is just so confusing to me and it is so ingrained into our lives. I don't get why civilizations have always had a bias toward women, despite history being full of strong women, like the Spartans and the Scythians.
The more people deprived of power the more concentrated it is in the hands of the few, who then act to maintain and expand it. That is where all the restrictions be it lineage, land, resources, sex, family, titles, religion, or whatever generally started from. And the way humans work once any given bullshit hangs around for a while it becomes tradition and thus people stick to it by default.
I assume the reason you are confused is that people do a lot of stuff because it is the way things work, if you ask them the human instinct is to come up with a bunch of explanations or to refer to others previously made. Which tend all to be nonsensical because the actual truth is that being the way things work is, itself, the reason why it is right no further thought required. Thus traditions stick far beyond what gave birth to them.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I consider this to be the biggest explanation for humanity's evil: the fact that people can get used to "the way things work", no matter how horribly bad those "things" may seem to an outsider, because those things don't hurt them, or they don't believe those things can hurt them.
Most white people in the South were not evil monsters, but were raised to believed in the innate inferiority of black people. Lincoln himself was so exasperated by this, he had his own private revenge fantasies about slaveowners experiencing slavery.
Whether it's somebody who grows up in a racist society, a totalitarian hellhole, or the member of a criminal family, all of us drift toward the voices in authority telling us "this is how life works and that's it."
To show the author we're thinking of him, akin to my other post concerning President Lincoln and "O Little Town of Bethlehem"...
From a review, and based on a comment I made in an earlier post...
"Annie is a rags to riches story that would have been written regardless. From Horatio Alger, who had begun his writing career in part because of his concern over the plight of so many boys who were fatherless after the War of the Rebellion, there rose a number of authors who penned works detailing the rags to riches stories of boys who rose based on their pluck, courage, and commitment to good, wholesome virtues despite the evils done to them. In that sense, one might say that the only difference is that the heroine this time is a little girl.
"Annie is much more, though. Her story spins a tale of a New York orphanage in the early days of the 20th century, as well as that ofbillionaire Oliver Warbucks - who could be mistaken for one of Alger's heroes, having risen from orphanhood to invest in the many great innovations of the latter third of the 19th century and become super rich. Warbucks is good friends with President Theodore Roosevelt, who, as legend has it, met President LIncoln in 1867 and was imediately inspired to become President himself, starting with victory in a New York mayoral race at a very young age.(1)
"Annie is brought to the Warbucks estat to spend Christmas, as the billionaire hopes to improve his image. Warbucks is so taken with her he chooses to adopt her. But, she is still in search for her real parents, and he enlists President Roosevelt in a search for them.(2) Roosevelt is rather distressed by all the turmoil he sees as the young president, newly in office, realizes that helping a big city is one thing, but a whole country? Especially becasue the South still has its share and then some of hatemongers, which makes Annie a bit fearful, especially becasue the young orphan, MOlly, who relies on her to care for her is black.(3) Annie still charms the President with her reprise of "Tomorrow."...
"The mean-spirited headmistress, who secretly runs the orphanage as an illegal sweatshop(4), has a brother in D.C. who is trying to siphon government funds for himself, proof that even with the Gilded Age crushed, theere are going to be people who use unscrupulous means to get things. The headmistress takes part inthe fraud by providing information to him, and she and he both get taken away, and Warbucks ends up adopting Annie - whose real parents are found to have died - and Molly(5), and finding good homes for all of the others.
This heartwarming tale showcases the great changes which were happening in society. The much greater number of orphans than could ever have been imagined led cities around the country to set up city-run orphanages to care for the children specifically after the War of the REbellion. In fact, legend has it that Roosevelt spoke with LIncoln about this, after knowing a friend of his who was an orphan.(6) While unlike some church-run orphanages these were used for child labor, the use of child labor in orphanages was becoming increasingly frowned upon by the early 1900s, and even the fact the headmistress doesn't have them in school is a bit shocking, though Annie and the others clearly know some subjects. An old, tattered almanac from 1890 is actually a prop for some school productions. However, the author takes care to show that the norms of society are such that it's quite likely headmistress isn't allowed to be as brutal as would be shown in something Dickensian, becasue people are watching out for the girls.(7)
Whether it was knowing an orphan growing up, or a sweet girl like Annie influencing him, Theodore Roosevelt did do quite a bit to improve the lives of workers and also protect children. It's interesting that it's hinted that the headmistress' drunknness leads one of the orphans to be the real caregiver. Perhaps this is another sign that it's meant to be different than an Oliver Twist; or, maybe the norms were just more about protecting girls back then than they would have been boys.(8)
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(1) In an era where Republicans are more dominant, he could easily win against the more radical but still unproven workers' party that ran a 3rd party candidate OTL. Especially because said candidate might seem a bit too scary to some.
(2) I mean, he *could* use radio if it's started earlier, but this is more likely.
(3) It will be an integrated orphanage at least in the North at this time, but there would still be some prejudice, and theater-goers would feel like having Annie be her caregiver would make a lot of sense.
(4) Perhaps not as illegal as it would be in OTL's 1933, but very frowned upon, anyway.
(5) He almost sure does OTL anyway and one could argue that in fact Annie would have suggested it had the Mudges been her real parents. As shown in this fic I wrote, he clearly was told about the sweatshop since he says they won't have to work anymore.
(6) OTL TR recalled seeing Lincoln's funeral train going past his house; it's quite logical he would meet Lincoln himself at some point. Of course, the legends would grow from there.
(7) Author fiat here, I can't let certain things into my brain anyway, one might say, abuse being one. But, also, let's face it, 1930s New York was *not* 1840s London. The norms and mores were different, and Miss Hannigan is too smart to teach them never to tell a lie and then be physicall abusive. (Yes, there is a Thomas Meehan book which supposedly shows it, but he himself said he wanted to make an "American Oliver Twist," and it's much more likely that - while MIss Hannigan really scares them - there is no physical violence connected with the sewing. The 1982 movie seems to have her worse, but it also is more based on the comic strip and a different timeline, though I do incorporate bits of it here. One bit especially allows the stuff I show in the author's note that is more comic-strip-like to be incorporated as Molly's dream)
(8) Another reason why I think - as I show in the story I linked to in footnote 5 - that people were watching; especially since Miss Hannigan drinks a lot, where they might not have otherwise in the 1930s. As for July as the mother figure, yes she's called Kate in the '82 movie, another way the movie is different than the musical, but it actually makes sense if she has a name Miss Hannigan gives her OTL and one given by the hosue mother who has to leave due to the Depression. Here is a longer story about her as a mother figure, if interested.
----------------------
I have a few other Annie fics, including one where Pepper is active doing something heroic in WW2 (with orphanage flashbacks, too), and a few others, so while the author deals with whatever real life thigns are going on, here is some fun stuff to read. Red, maybe they'll inspire you, too.
From a review, and based on a comment I made in an earlier post...
"Annie is a rags to riches story that would have been written regardless. From Horatio Alger, who had begun his writing career in part because of his concern over the plight of so many boys who were fatherless after the War of the Rebellion, there rose a number of authors who penned works detailing the rags to riches stories of boys who rose based on their pluck, courage, and commitment to good, wholesome virtues despite the evils done to them. In that sense, one might say that the only difference is that the heroine this time is a little girl.
"Annie is much more, though. Her story spins a tale of a New York orphanage in the early days of the 20th century, as well as that ofbillionaire Oliver Warbucks - who could be mistaken for one of Alger's heroes, having risen from orphanhood to invest in the many great innovations of the latter third of the 19th century and become super rich. Warbucks is good friends with President Theodore Roosevelt, who, as legend has it, met President LIncoln in 1867 and was imediately inspired to become President himself, starting with victory in a New York mayoral race at a very young age.(1)
"Annie is brought to the Warbucks estat to spend Christmas, as the billionaire hopes to improve his image. Warbucks is so taken with her he chooses to adopt her. But, she is still in search for her real parents, and he enlists President Roosevelt in a search for them.(2) Roosevelt is rather distressed by all the turmoil he sees as the young president, newly in office, realizes that helping a big city is one thing, but a whole country? Especially becasue the South still has its share and then some of hatemongers, which makes Annie a bit fearful, especially becasue the young orphan, MOlly, who relies on her to care for her is black.(3) Annie still charms the President with her reprise of "Tomorrow."...
"The mean-spirited headmistress, who secretly runs the orphanage as an illegal sweatshop(4), has a brother in D.C. who is trying to siphon government funds for himself, proof that even with the Gilded Age crushed, theere are going to be people who use unscrupulous means to get things. The headmistress takes part inthe fraud by providing information to him, and she and he both get taken away, and Warbucks ends up adopting Annie - whose real parents are found to have died - and Molly(5), and finding good homes for all of the others.
This heartwarming tale showcases the great changes which were happening in society. The much greater number of orphans than could ever have been imagined led cities around the country to set up city-run orphanages to care for the children specifically after the War of the REbellion. In fact, legend has it that Roosevelt spoke with LIncoln about this, after knowing a friend of his who was an orphan.(6) While unlike some church-run orphanages these were used for child labor, the use of child labor in orphanages was becoming increasingly frowned upon by the early 1900s, and even the fact the headmistress doesn't have them in school is a bit shocking, though Annie and the others clearly know some subjects. An old, tattered almanac from 1890 is actually a prop for some school productions. However, the author takes care to show that the norms of society are such that it's quite likely headmistress isn't allowed to be as brutal as would be shown in something Dickensian, becasue people are watching out for the girls.(7)
Whether it was knowing an orphan growing up, or a sweet girl like Annie influencing him, Theodore Roosevelt did do quite a bit to improve the lives of workers and also protect children. It's interesting that it's hinted that the headmistress' drunknness leads one of the orphans to be the real caregiver. Perhaps this is another sign that it's meant to be different than an Oliver Twist; or, maybe the norms were just more about protecting girls back then than they would have been boys.(8)
------------
(1) In an era where Republicans are more dominant, he could easily win against the more radical but still unproven workers' party that ran a 3rd party candidate OTL. Especially because said candidate might seem a bit too scary to some.
(2) I mean, he *could* use radio if it's started earlier, but this is more likely.
(3) It will be an integrated orphanage at least in the North at this time, but there would still be some prejudice, and theater-goers would feel like having Annie be her caregiver would make a lot of sense.
(4) Perhaps not as illegal as it would be in OTL's 1933, but very frowned upon, anyway.
(5) He almost sure does OTL anyway and one could argue that in fact Annie would have suggested it had the Mudges been her real parents. As shown in this fic I wrote, he clearly was told about the sweatshop since he says they won't have to work anymore.
(6) OTL TR recalled seeing Lincoln's funeral train going past his house; it's quite logical he would meet Lincoln himself at some point. Of course, the legends would grow from there.
(7) Author fiat here, I can't let certain things into my brain anyway, one might say, abuse being one. But, also, let's face it, 1930s New York was *not* 1840s London. The norms and mores were different, and Miss Hannigan is too smart to teach them never to tell a lie and then be physicall abusive. (Yes, there is a Thomas Meehan book which supposedly shows it, but he himself said he wanted to make an "American Oliver Twist," and it's much more likely that - while MIss Hannigan really scares them - there is no physical violence connected with the sewing. The 1982 movie seems to have her worse, but it also is more based on the comic strip and a different timeline, though I do incorporate bits of it here. One bit especially allows the stuff I show in the author's note that is more comic-strip-like to be incorporated as Molly's dream)
(8) Another reason why I think - as I show in the story I linked to in footnote 5 - that people were watching; especially since Miss Hannigan drinks a lot, where they might not have otherwise in the 1930s. As for July as the mother figure, yes she's called Kate in the '82 movie, another way the movie is different than the musical, but it actually makes sense if she has a name Miss Hannigan gives her OTL and one given by the hosue mother who has to leave due to the Depression. Here is a longer story about her as a mother figure, if interested.
----------------------
I have a few other Annie fics, including one where Pepper is active doing something heroic in WW2 (with orphanage flashbacks, too), and a few others, so while the author deals with whatever real life thigns are going on, here is some fun stuff to read. Red, maybe they'll inspire you, too.
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Aw, that's awfully nice of you! Half the update has already been written in fact, it's just that I've been suffering some horrible writer's block. The Louisiana situation was complex and rather nasty IOTL, and I feel like I got bogged down in a swamp or something everything I open the doc and try to write. Add to that how college's been rather hard as of lately and also, well, that I fell in love with Persona 4 and, yeah, progress has been slow. But I reaffirm my compromise to finish the TL no matter what.
I really liked what you wrote too! One of the things I really like is thinking about alternate culture and media, like alternate versions of Little Women or Gone With the Wind. This really fits in there! Though I have to admit that I've never read the Annie comic strips and know barely anything about the character.
That would definitely explain the absence, I heard 4 was pretty good.
It could be fun to explore smaller vignettes for media and culture to break up writer's block or even just for fun.
A quick look tells me you're from Quito. Lovely city! I visited with an exchange student friend, oh, about 15-16 years ago. He took me and a couple others all over the country. Beautiful place, wonderful people. At the time, being only 18-19 years old, I didn't realize how much the US boot had stomped all over Latin America. I should go back. He now works at the UN, and he came down to join us in Bama for Christmas pre-covid. Might look at doing a 20-year reunion trip or somesuch. Anywho... just wanted to say lovely place.
I have this theory about billionaires. They don't become billionaires without leaving behind a trail of bodies.
That's a lot like ANY world power. To play in the big leagues, you gotta be willing to do all sorts of shady shit to anyone who isn't in your tribe, so to speak.
...and even then, if someone in your tribe starts pushing back, well, they get tossed in a shallow grave, too.
The comic strip (which I have the orphans writing in the musical timeline) is much more adventure, almost like an Odyssey, as is typical of comic strips of that day. Originally meant to be named Otto, the writer thought it'd be interesting and different to have a girl character, and apparently there was a poem about an orphan naed Annie written in Britain some decades prior. Annie's characgter is very quick-thinking, optimistic, and determined, but charfactgers are obviously somewhat different otherwise; Daddy Warbucks is the only other one besides her dog, Sandy, who carries over into the musical. (He's married and his wife, a socialite, doesn't like kids - Annie is sent there on loan to work and the wicked socialite is the one trying to send her back to the orphanage.) The cruel wife is kind of combined with the strict orphanage head to come up with Miss Hannigan for the play. Other thigns which appear int he 1982 movie and the comic strip but not in the play are Warbucks' personal bodyguard, a 7-foot or so native of India, and Warbucks being an inventor of the hoverplane they search for Annie in. (You can see where that adventure and danger - since Annie actually is kidnapped in the '82 movie, unlike in the musical - allowed me to incorporate some of that into a child's bad dream in my story from the musical universe.)
She knows she's an orphan in the comic strip, though - but not in the musical. And, the sweatshop isn't there in the comic strip, either - the kids (boys and girls) go to school. But, the orphanage isn't really part of the comic strip after the first few years. It just becomes abig series of adventures. Which, really, makes it even more logical that in the musical universe, the orphans could have produced the stories that become the comic strip.
@Oxander posted while I was typing, and I don't know if I can copy his quote, but I'll just say to what he says about billionaires, even in the musical Daddy Warbucks admits he figured you don't have to be nice to those on the way up if you don't plan to come back down. Having Annie really softens him, and you could argue that he's also an Americna version of Scrooge who just happens to be a lot nicer to his employees. (And in love with Miss Grace.
) He realizes something is missing in his life.Which means setting the musical 30 years earlier in this timeline and having him be a symbol of the Gilded Age billionaire who remembers his roots fits in nicely. Indeed, it might, in this TL, be a nice symbol for the Progressive Era.
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