Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
oogieboogie
Banned
I like much of what's been posted so far,but I was disappointed a reasoned discussion of the States Rights argument turned into a flame war.I mean,come on people!
What argument is to be had with it? The Confederates seceded over slavery and the states rights BS only became a thing because of the Lost Cause mythos taking hold.
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I have to agree respectfully. If one were to read their secession ordances one would see they saw slavery as the main issue to leave. Lincoln even tried to argue to them he wouldn't infringe on slavery in their states but that didn't matter to them.
Yeah, it seem like they had made their choice beforehand and regardless of the consequences, even if someone more moderate than uncle Abe took the oath.
Part of the shock with the marriage bit is probably where you were raised. Here in the Midwest, at least in my family interracial marriage has never been an issue; our family just always accepted the idea that if people were nice, friendly, cared about others, etc. that this was the important part, not what one looked like. Thankfully, my cousins, nephews, and niece who are married all have happy ones where we all get along. NOne cousin married a Jewish man (we're all Protestants Christians) and a niece and a nephew each married black people. (My niece's husband is mixed race to begin with.)
So, I don't know if anyone cares but your boy has passed all his finals with decent to good grades, so I will cleanly pass to the next semester. I'm quite happy with the results, and now it's time for a two month vacation or so before the next semester starts, so hopefully I will be able to write more.
Yeah, I read it in a Jstor article. Benigno Malo, a prominent politician and diplomat, heard that President Lincoln was looking for land to settle the liberated slaves. Since Ecuador's small population was unable to properly exploit all the land available, and most immigrants preferred the US, Malo thought that a good way to settle several acres around Cuenca would be through African Americans, who were promised land and rights. Yet President García Moreno, an ultraconservative Catholic fanatic, was opposed to bringing in "inferior races" to Ecuador, when the doctrine of blanqueamiento was most popular. He was finally convinced to allow some limited migration, but by then the American government had decided against colonization. You can read more about this in https://www.jstor.org/stable/273479
More about Vicksburg later, but the fact that Thomas is in charge and how Grant has friends in high places should bear very different results once the Union goes in the offense in these two theaters. I actually wanted to find a way to minimize the Mexican intervention in order to prevent that ill-advised attack against Texas, since I agreed that taking Mobile was probably the best option after Vicksburg's fall. I think I will maintain everything outside of the US the same, for the sake of simplicity, but the expedition may not be undertaken ITTL.
I mean, you can argue whether any state in the Union had a right to secede. But the argument made was whether the CSA specifically had a right to secede. I tend to consider such questions to be abstractions. Whether there was a de jure right, human rights dictate that something like the Confederacy had absolutely no right to exist. It's, after all, a nation founded on the monstrous assertion that Black slavery is a benign institution to be preserved and expanded. I don't care if through a specific reading of the constitution one can justify the act of secession. The CSA was not and could never be legitimate due to its foundation and objectives.
Yeah, I read it in a Jstor article. Benigno Malo, a prominent politician and diplomat, heard that President Lincoln was looking for land to settle the liberated slaves. Since Ecuador's small population was unable to properly exploit all the land available, and most immigrants preferred the US, Malo thought that a good way to settle several acres around Cuenca would be through African Americans, who were promised land and rights. Yet President García Moreno, an ultraconservative Catholic fanatic, was opposed to bringing in "inferior races" to Ecuador, when the doctrine of blanqueamiento was most popular. He was finally convinced to allow some limited migration, but by then the American government had decided against colonization. You can read more about this in https://www.jstor.org/stable/273479
More about Vicksburg later, but the fact that Thomas is in charge and how Grant has friends in high places should bear very different results once the Union goes in the offense in these two theaters. I actually wanted to find a way to minimize the Mexican intervention in order to prevent that ill-advised attack against Texas, since I agreed that taking Mobile was probably the best option after Vicksburg's fall. I think I will maintain everything outside of the US the same, for the sake of simplicity, but the expedition may not be undertaken ITTL.
I mean, you can argue whether any state in the Union had a right to secede. But the argument made was whether the CSA specifically had a right to secede. I tend to consider such questions to be abstractions. Whether there was a de jure right, human rights dictate that something like the Confederacy had absolutely no right to exist. It's, after all, a nation founded on the monstrous assertion that Black slavery is a benign institution to be preserved and expanded. I don't care if through a specific reading of the constitution one can justify the act of secession. The CSA was not and could never be legitimate due to its foundation and objectives.
I shall bestow a title for this occasion.
You shall henceforth be known as:
Our Boy, "He That Is Impressive In All Things"
Ficboy
Banned
Even if we have different political views and I can disagree nevertheless I am impressed at how you write the timeline.
Congratulations!
If some ecuadorians were that fanatical against the freed slaves going down there, I wonder if they would be willing to take some of the exiled. Confederate leaders.
If some ecuadorians were that fanatical against the freed slaves going down there, I wonder if they would be willing to take some of the exiled. Confederate leaders.
oogieboogie
Banned
Interesting take on the whole Robert E.Lee thing,incidinatally:
theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-lesson-from-robert-e-lee/
theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-lesson-from-robert-e-lee/
Thanks! And I'm studying law. It's quite different in Ecuador, since you only need one degree to become a lawyer, instead of getting one degree and then going to law school. It's a subject I particularly enjoy, so I'm quite pleased it's going well so far.
Thank you very much!
Oh, I would not say impressive in all things, but I'll take the compliment. Thank you!
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Thank you! I appreciate that you took the time to congratulate me.
Thanks! And, well, antipathy against freedmen was more a result of racism, that did not necessarily mean that they sympathized with the Confederacy. The same Garcia Moreno supported the Union and was genuinely pained at Lincoln's assassination, for example. And other Ecuadorians supported the colonization project.
Congratulations! I’m just starting the school term here.
I absolutely love your TL, with everything else going on it’s nice imagining a more “optimistic” (in the long-term) history.
The Highwater Mark of the Confederacy came a few months early, but at this point they still have a more competent surviving officer corp, and a FAR more competent government, but the Union is no longer playing nice. I'm curious if this is going to lead to a longer or shorter war. I'm wondering with a more competent Confederate government, there will be more people in charge like Josiah Gorgas or those other fringe inventors the South had that made things like torpedoes and submarines.
I’m interested what’s happening on the Home Front: there should be something that allows people even disconnected from the war to start thinking differently about African Americans. Maybe something like the Fisk Jubilee Singers being created earlier, exposing more White Americans to Black culture right when they are paying attention. Here's some reviews from Germany from the 1870's, reaction in England and America, and even the Netherlands. Or maybe some Black novelist writes an instant classic.
Now that the North is already talking about Reconstruction, I'm wondering about what's going to happen post-war. There was all sorts of foreign policy ideas the US seriously considered at the time before deciding against them because they were too racist. Is the US going to put more or less investment in Liberia? Will they annex Santo Domingo like President Grant wanted?
You talked recently about more Socialists in the Union Army. What about August Willich. He is probably by far the most competent of the German exiles and was so Socialist he challenged Karl Marx to a duel. His regiment was said to be the most disciplined in the army, he suggested mobilizing the infantry by mass construction of wagons, tried to improve field conditions, and drilled his unit in a tactic he devised called advancing fire, in order to lessen casualties when assaulting a position. I always feel he is criminally underused in Civil War TL's.
Sorry for all the dumping, I read pretty much the whole timeline in about 3 sittings, so putting all my thoughts.
I absolutely love your TL, with everything else going on it’s nice imagining a more “optimistic” (in the long-term) history.
The Highwater Mark of the Confederacy came a few months early, but at this point they still have a more competent surviving officer corp, and a FAR more competent government, but the Union is no longer playing nice. I'm curious if this is going to lead to a longer or shorter war. I'm wondering with a more competent Confederate government, there will be more people in charge like Josiah Gorgas or those other fringe inventors the South had that made things like torpedoes and submarines.
I’m interested what’s happening on the Home Front: there should be something that allows people even disconnected from the war to start thinking differently about African Americans. Maybe something like the Fisk Jubilee Singers being created earlier, exposing more White Americans to Black culture right when they are paying attention. Here's some reviews from Germany from the 1870's, reaction in England and America, and even the Netherlands. Or maybe some Black novelist writes an instant classic.
Now that the North is already talking about Reconstruction, I'm wondering about what's going to happen post-war. There was all sorts of foreign policy ideas the US seriously considered at the time before deciding against them because they were too racist. Is the US going to put more or less investment in Liberia? Will they annex Santo Domingo like President Grant wanted?
You talked recently about more Socialists in the Union Army. What about August Willich. He is probably by far the most competent of the German exiles and was so Socialist he challenged Karl Marx to a duel. His regiment was said to be the most disciplined in the army, he suggested mobilizing the infantry by mass construction of wagons, tried to improve field conditions, and drilled his unit in a tactic he devised called advancing fire, in order to lessen casualties when assaulting a position. I always feel he is criminally underused in Civil War TL's.
Sorry for all the dumping, I read pretty much the whole timeline in about 3 sittings, so putting all my thoughts.
Thanks...
Thank you! And I'm really glad you are enjoying the TL. Breckinridge is more capable than Davis when it comes to administration, yes. He's also more capable when it comes to choosing subordinates, weeding out men like Northrop and Bragg, and giving greater power and attention to people like Gorgas. Still, there is only so much he can do.
Battlefield fortunes are the greatest agent of change, though I would like to talk about social and cultural mingling that could change some opinions. Unfortunately, I don't have enough space for that in the regular updates.
Colonization as an idea was already dead when the war startes ITTL, and it was never even attempted. As for Santo Domingo... my gut reaction would be to butterfly it away, since I hate American imperialism.
One of my main problems is that I don't have enough space and energy to write everything I want. I would lile to include many officers, such as Kearny, Lincoln's friend the Zouave, and, of course, Willich. But I don't know how they would fare in battle since my info is limited, and I am not sure where I could include them. I would like to see Willich as an officer "borrowed" by the Bureaus to help confiscate and administrate lands. There, he would promptly start an experiment in communal land holding among the freedmen.