I, for some reason, thought I had started this TL towards the end of September and was saving a comment for that occasion. Turns out I started this TL at the beginning of September, the 6th of September 2018 to be precise. Oh well. It's crazy to think that I've been working in this project for some two years already. I started after I graduated high school but before starting college, and right now I'm finishing my third semester. A lot has happened to me personally during these two years. I'd like to say that I have matured and become a slightly better person, though of course I'm still young and have much to learn. I also would like to say that my writing has improved thanks to the feedback and support I've found here. I find it funny how this TL became much more successful than I could have ever imagined. Like, it was meant to be a little side project and I was blown away when I received 30 likes. Right now I'm receiving around 80 per update and some have more than 120. This has in turn led me to find many more books and trying to do the best TL I can, as a way to repay this incredible support. Anyway, I'm really just rambling here. Thank you to everyone that has read this TL, for all the valuable discussions, the feedback both positive and negative, and the support you've shown.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Again, that's a bit of an oversimplification.
The white flag symbolized absolute y monarchy (Henri was the grandson of Charles X) while the tricolor symbolized the Orléanist constitutional monarchy. Both branches of the family were mortally at odds since Philippe-Égalité had voted for the death of his cousin Louis XVI. Henri refused to use the flag of the regicide, and even more importantly, did not want to be a constitutional monarch.
For even more simplification, we could even say that Henri refused the throne over a word, because he wanted to be king of France and not king of the French. (which is historically amusing given that Rex Francorum was the older title, but whatever).
@Red_Galiray: thanks to your TL I've been reading Battle Cry of Freedom, which I finished last night, and I must say that while it was one of the best books I remember reading, your TL rises to a comparable quality. Thanks! If you ever want to have some fun related to the American civil war, I can point you to the French comics *Les tuniques bleues* (the blue coats), which follow the (mis)adventures of cavalry sergeant Chesterfield and corporal Blutch. A lot of those comics relate to various elements of the war, including CSS Virginia, Quantrill, war propaganda, prisoner camps, or the battle of Bull Run. And it's generally quite a fun read. (I don't know whether it has been translated to English or Spanish though, but given that it's one of the popular classic Franco-Belgian comics that's quite likely).
Last edited:
This TL is amazing. The amount of details included is especially good. I'm a fan of Lincoln and this TL makes me like him even more dealing with the Civil War. I'm excited to see this TL go further into the future and how you will deal with Reconstruction and if Lincoln will be assassined. Please continue 
Bringing the discussion back to the ACW, I think it is important to remember that Lee's serious defeat at Union Mills does not actually mean that the march to Richmond will be a cakewalk. A rather stunning fact that was swept under the rug by Lost Causers was that Lee's army actually recovered from the losses of Gettysburg in favor of showing a "small band of heroes" winning against Grant. The Army of Northern Virginia actually had 74,983 troops at the start of the Overland Campaign, but the 66,000 men that Grant met at the Wilderness is oft the only number historians consider as Lee's army strength, not the numerous troops at the Valley and Hanover Junction. In addition, recent studies on the Army of Northern Virginia show that Lee received as many as 31,280 reinforcements (Albert C. Young III), bringing the number of men serving in Lee's army at one point or another up to 98,000 men. That said, a substantial portion of these replacements came from the troops that made ITTL Beauregard's Corps, which got smashed by the USCT at Washington D.C.
Another aspect I had not considered earlier was the consequences of the savaging of Beauregard's Corps to the coastal defenses of the CSA, in particular Charleston. IOTL, Charleston had a garrison of 5,860 men to man the guns on the islands off Charleston and the city itself. When the campaign for Charleston began, Beauregard thought that the Federals would target James Island and assumed that Morris Island was no danger to Charleston; hence, he prioritized the defense of the former. The only defense Morris island had was Fort Wagner with its 1,000 man brigade. IOTL, the Fort Wagner garrison bought Beauregard 60 days to re-orient his defenses and frankly exhausted any enthusiasm for a seizure of Charleston. ITTL if Fort Wagner could fall owing to its reduced garrison (or Beauregard makes the decision to evacuate it), the Union army could bombard Fort Sumter and move on to Sullivan's Island to besiege the Confederate forts in the area. Once both areas fall, Charleston would be open to a joint army-navy operation.
The historical stalemate at Charleston Harbor was a morale boost to the Confederacy; ITTL, a joint fall of Charleston and Vicksburg could have dealt another severe blow to the CSA in terms of morale while raising the Union's morale even higher. Not to mention that there's an opportunity to integrate Robert Smalls, an absolute legend, and allow USCT to liberate slaves in the "cradle of secession".
Another aspect I had not considered earlier was the consequences of the savaging of Beauregard's Corps to the coastal defenses of the CSA, in particular Charleston. IOTL, Charleston had a garrison of 5,860 men to man the guns on the islands off Charleston and the city itself. When the campaign for Charleston began, Beauregard thought that the Federals would target James Island and assumed that Morris Island was no danger to Charleston; hence, he prioritized the defense of the former. The only defense Morris island had was Fort Wagner with its 1,000 man brigade. IOTL, the Fort Wagner garrison bought Beauregard 60 days to re-orient his defenses and frankly exhausted any enthusiasm for a seizure of Charleston. ITTL if Fort Wagner could fall owing to its reduced garrison (or Beauregard makes the decision to evacuate it), the Union army could bombard Fort Sumter and move on to Sullivan's Island to besiege the Confederate forts in the area. Once both areas fall, Charleston would be open to a joint army-navy operation.
The historical stalemate at Charleston Harbor was a morale boost to the Confederacy; ITTL, a joint fall of Charleston and Vicksburg could have dealt another severe blow to the CSA in terms of morale while raising the Union's morale even higher. Not to mention that there's an opportunity to integrate Robert Smalls, an absolute legend, and allow USCT to liberate slaves in the "cradle of secession".
Good to have you here, private!
Thanks for the support! Hope you stick once the war is over!
I love that book. I find myself reading chapters just for fun. I could probably recite it by memory by now. And thanks for the recommendation. I can read French, so I should be able to read the original version if I can find it.
This TL is amazing. The amount of details included is especially good. I'm a fan of Lincoln and this TL makes me like him even more dealing with the Civil War. I'm excited to see this TL go further into the future and how you will deal with Reconstruction and if Lincoln will be assassined. Please continue
Thanks you very much! Spoilers, I guess, but I will have Lincoln live.
The next Charleston expedition may have to wait, however, for most troops assigned there were pulled out to bolster the Army of the Susquehanna. This included the 54th Massachusetts. So, right now both Confederates and Federals have only skeleton forces present. I do like the idea of Robert Smalls leading the expedition, however. Mind if I steal it?
Sure, but I will note that it is unlikely that Robert Smalls would be made the admiral in charge of the expedition. Smalls was promoted to captain of the Planter, the ship he had commandeered to get his friends and family to safety from Charleston for his bravery in steering the ship to safety after coming under fire from Confederate batteries at Secessionville (the original white captain was hiding in the coal bin). However, with respect to the command of the expedition, it would go to whoever is in command of the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron. The USN has a lot of admirals to fill that position and (political or military) connections is an absolute must to possess the command. It is plausible, however, that Robert Smalls' ship could be one of the first ships carrying the troops into Charleston harbor.
Samuel F. Du Pont was the commander of the squadron who started the first attacks on Charleston. After seizing Port Royal, Du Pont was given the task of capturing Charleston because Secretary of Navy Gideon Welles and Gustavus Vasa Fox were concerned about the bad publicity the US Navy was getting relative to the US army and wanted to shut down Charleston harbor, the second most important harbor for blockade runners. Welles and Fox were convinced that a small group of ironclads could capture the harbor on their own and pushed the skeptical Du Pont, who wanted a combined army-navy operation, to carry out their plan. Du Pont was publicly humiliated after a Court of Inquiry found the US Navy's Chief Engineer Alban Stimers to be innocent after the Chief Engineer had leaked out to the press that he thought Charleston had not fallen because of Du Pont's incompetence. Frustrated, Du Pont requested to be relieved of duty.
Admiral Andrew Hull Foote was the favored candidate to replace Du Pont, but Foote's health failed him, which left John A. Dahlgren in command. Dahlgren's appointment was very much an example of presidential favoritism; Dahlgren had almost no experience at sea but was a close friend of Lincoln's. Ironically, Dahlgren's plan was essentially a copy-paste of Du Pont's original plan. When Morris Island fell, Dahlgren and General Gillmore unwittingly caused the campaign to flop due to a hilariously miscarried amphibious invasion of Fort Sumter. Army-Navy rivalry got the better of the two and Gillmore aborted the landing due to a fear of friendly fire from the navy and Dahlgren's elaborate plans resulted in having only 1/4 of the landing force in position. Without Fort Sumter, the navy could not clear out the line of torpedoes blocking the entrance of Charleston harbor. If Fort Wagner could be seized quickly, then the campaign's timetable could be accelerated by 60 days. These 60 days could be spent bombarding Fort Sumter to rubble and moving on to besiege the Confederate defenses on the James and Sullivan Islands.
The thing is Fort Sumter was blasted to pieces and the confederates held it. Given the defenses and the state of army and navy cooperation and Dahlgren's health failing I don't think a offensive was worth it otl. Also the confederates were planing to flight street to street. I would say building to building but their was a big fire in 1861.
Oh, certainly not as the overall commander. I already dismissed the possibility of Black officers when the topic first came up, because I don't think we're quite there yet. I would like for Smalls to take part in the capture of "The Citadel of Treason". As for who's in command, well, I think I established in one previous chapter that Du Pont was the man who captured the Sea Islands and the North Carolina sounds. I see no reason why he would be replaced unless he failed, in which case Dahlgren would, unfortunately, be the frontrunner.
(Btw, how great it was that the ship Smalls took was called the Planter? God, history is stranger than fiction sometimes).
Thank you! I'm glad you are enjoying it.
Also, I wanted to share this small connection I found between my loved Ecuador and the American Civil War. Commissioned by a wealthy man from the painter Frederic Edwin Church, this painting depicts the Cotopaxi, Ecuador's second highest mountain. It was made in 1862, and as the Civil War raged at the moment, it was seem as a representation of it. The ashes of war and suffering covering the sun of freedom, which would once again shine when the cruel war was over. It's really a beautiful painting. Ecuador was dealing with its own problems during the ACW (you know, dictators and all that classic Latin American stuff), but the American Minister Resident reported that many wept when Lincoln was assassinated. We were also involved in one of those hare-brained colonization schemes, which failed because our President did not want more Blacks in the country. Yikes, remember that when people say there's no racism in Latin America.
Ficboy
Banned
Ecuador by the way has 1.12 million blacks living in your home country. Probably shapes your opinions of the Civil War. I'm from the United States specifically California.Also, I wanted to share this small connection I found between my loved Ecuador and the American Civil War. Commissioned by a wealthy man from the painter Frederic Edwin Church, this painting depicts the Cotopaxi, Ecuador's second highest mountain. It was made in 1862, and as the Civil War raged at the moment, it was seem as a representation of it. The ashes of war and suffering covering the sun of freedom, which would once again shine when the cruel war was over. It's really a beautiful painting. Ecuador was dealing with its own problems during the ACW (you know, dictators and all that classic Latin American stuff), but the American Minister Resident reported that many wept when Lincoln was assassinated. We were also involved in one of those hare-brained colonization schemes, which failed because our President did not want more Blacks in the country. Yikes, remember that when people say there's no racism in Latin America.
At the end of the day, the Earth belongs to all of humanity. Frontiers are nothing but imaginary lines. From that point of view, the Cotopaxi is as much yours as it is mine.
Not really. Afro-Ecuadorians are only 7.2% of the population, and mostly concentrated in the Coast. I live in the Mountains, so I have met few Black people. Also, the understanding of racial issues is very different between the US and Latin America.
Ficboy
Banned
Well at least as far as population size. Plus, Latin America is more Mestizo or racially mixed compared to the United States (historically speaking).
To expand the strategic importance of Charleston, if Charleston fell early, then the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron can be used to attack other strategically vital ports such as Wilmington, North Carolina, and Mobile, Alabama. This could tie in with the conclusion of the Vicksburg Campaign. IOTL Grant and Banks thought that the next logical step for the Armies of the Tennessee and the Gulf was to go to Mobile and shut the port down. Once Mobile had fallen, Grant intended for the army to move north from Mobile to Atlanta. In the context of the Union offensive in 1864, Grant planned for the seizure of Mobile and the march to Atlanta to be a double-pronged approach to Atlanta that would have effectively encircled the Army of Tennessee and making the life of the Union army marching from Chattanooga easier by preventing any Confederate troops in Alabama from marching to the Army of Tennessee's aid.
Unfortunately, as historian Donald Frazier points out in his book "Tempest Over Texas: The Fall and Winter Campaigns of 1863-1864", the Lincoln administration, concerned about the French designs for Mexico, wanted to plant the flag in Texas to offer symbolic support for Juarez and a sharp warning against further French designs. A Union lodgment on the Rio Grande would also disrupt the cross-border cotton trade that did so much to sustain the Confederate war effort in the Trans-Mississippi. Despite the agreement of Generals Grant and Bank that an attack on Mobile was the best move, President Lincoln and General in Chief Halleck wanted to the use the momentum gained from Vicksburg and Port Hudson to clear out the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department from the Arkansas Valley to the Gulf. The initial plans for sweeping the Trans-Mississippi were big, but most of the operations related to the Army of the Tennessee were aborted due to the serious defeat at Chickamauga. I'm curious if Grant could lobby for a move on Mobile through Lyon.
Speaking of Vicksburg, I do hope that Grant could score a decisive win outside of the Vicksburg fortifications. He came incredibly close to destroying Pemberton's entire army at Champion Hill. Only a breakdown in communication between McClernand and Grant and a lack of initiative on McClernand's part saved Pemberton's army there. While I'm sure that ASJ would make for a tougher opponent than Pemberton, there are plenty of water barriers for a large portion of his army to be destroyed.
Unfortunately, as historian Donald Frazier points out in his book "Tempest Over Texas: The Fall and Winter Campaigns of 1863-1864", the Lincoln administration, concerned about the French designs for Mexico, wanted to plant the flag in Texas to offer symbolic support for Juarez and a sharp warning against further French designs. A Union lodgment on the Rio Grande would also disrupt the cross-border cotton trade that did so much to sustain the Confederate war effort in the Trans-Mississippi. Despite the agreement of Generals Grant and Bank that an attack on Mobile was the best move, President Lincoln and General in Chief Halleck wanted to the use the momentum gained from Vicksburg and Port Hudson to clear out the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department from the Arkansas Valley to the Gulf. The initial plans for sweeping the Trans-Mississippi were big, but most of the operations related to the Army of the Tennessee were aborted due to the serious defeat at Chickamauga. I'm curious if Grant could lobby for a move on Mobile through Lyon.
Speaking of Vicksburg, I do hope that Grant could score a decisive win outside of the Vicksburg fortifications. He came incredibly close to destroying Pemberton's entire army at Champion Hill. Only a breakdown in communication between McClernand and Grant and a lack of initiative on McClernand's part saved Pemberton's army there. While I'm sure that ASJ would make for a tougher opponent than Pemberton, there are plenty of water barriers for a large portion of his army to be destroyed.
Yep, and it was Loving v. Virginia, a Supreme Court decision, that legalized it instead of an act of legislation. It also wasn't until the mid-1990s that a polls reported a majority of white Americans approving of interracial relationships.