Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Okay, so the United States is going to defeat and subjugate the British Empire? The French? In the 1860s? Only a systemic hegemon can dictate international law.
Yes, international law is often superseded by realpolitik, but the point of international law isn't to be a literal law code for the world; for most of modern history its point has been to act as a set of norms governing relations between sovereign states. In the 1860s, it has very little to do with whatever the United States decides to do in the South after the war ends—Westphalia was (and arguably is today) still the dominant paradigm—but very much to do with how other nations treat the Confederate and Union forces—e.g., when the UK declared 'neutrality' in the conflict, they implicitly recognized the CSA as a belligerent power, which meant that the Union Navy couldn't just blow up Confederate-flagged boats in British waters. This is where the friction of international law, and the birth of about six million Third Anglo-American War timelines, comes in.
Washington claims that the Confederates are domestic rebels and can be dealt with however they like, while much of the rest of the world (read: Europe) thinks of the CSA as a belligerent power, at least as long as the war is going, and therefore its troops are subject to the restrictions of 'civilized' (again, read: European) warfare. Will the European powers invade the United States after the subjugation of the Confederacy if Union forces are harsh with a few rebels? No. But it may lead to censure in London and Paris, and a full-on no-quarter policy could easily lead to the use of intermediate measures. Britain banning the sale of saltpeter—a key ingredient in gunpowder—to the United States could be one of these intermediate measures that could hurt the war effort badly.
Again, at this point, it doesn't matter much by the standards of contemporary international law what the United States does in the South once it's unquestionably American territory once more—because, again, Westphalian international law only governs relations between nations, not what nations do within their own borders—but while the CSA occupies a quasi-legitimate state of independence, the conduct of the United States does matter to an extent. Though, of course, the standards of 'civilized warfare' of the time are pretty damn low, and Union forces would have to commit some pretty severe depredations against Confederate forces and populations for it to really matter.
They still never recognized the Confederacy, and to recognize the South American nations they first had to prove themselves. The US ans Britain only recognized Gran Colombia after it expulsed all Spanish forces from its territory. To outsiders, despite the economic woes, Colombia seemed like a stable and well organized nation - it even conducted peaceful elections. It was the first nation to be recognized and only years after it had won and at the height of its prosperity. The Confederacy would have to win first before being recognized. I have always believed, anyway, that it would have ended up as a poor and instable Cotton Republic.
Frankly, I don't think the talk of International Law is adequate since to treat the CSA as a conquered foreign nation would go against Union policy. The Confederates are domestic insurgents and will be treated as such. Any decisions will be taken under the understanding that it"s because the US has a right to govern its territory - not the law of nations. The Civil War could inform future US foreign policy but I don't think it will immediately lead to any precedents or laws that would apply to all nations - only the Confederates as subdued rebels.
So this is from a completely different thread, but I feel as though the information contained therein would be pertinent here:
This therefore extends into some things what I think would be possible to implement in the scenario this story has proposed, though I am not entirely sure if all the proposals, specifically the one regarding common schools regardless of race, would survive the test of time or inevitably be watered down.
On other matters I think @Triune Kingdom is right in that the idea of Colored Officers is a bridge too far, even when it comes to the command of Black Regiments or Militias. Much of that has to do with racism obviously, but there was also a strong animus against African Americans taking the limited number of seats in the Officer Schools such as West Point at the cost of Whites who, by and large, were seen as more deserving; even with the nomination of a Radical Republican, there is an overwhelming possibility that they simply not be admitted.
The detailing of deaths among former Slaves is also going to be hard to properly estimate as well, though @Red_Galiray is right that demographically it would be more universal whereas deaths amongst the White population would be weighted towards young males. That being said though I am not certain if African Americans are going to see any real demographic advantage; I mean, if the South is suffering, it is obvious that the Slaves are going to be the last to receive any sort of resources or care, and I can't imagine that the Union Armies or Government is going to share critical supplies with any refugees except in a number of choice cases, and even then in small quantities. Chances are that the Black death toll is going to be considerably higher.
Thomas1195
Banned
Well, Blacks could gain permanent demographic advantage if Union killcount actually exceeds that of the CSA ITTL in absolute term - which is likely to happen ITTL. And if the CSA actually goes Paraguay, then the Union killcount figure could reach 1 million or more. Not to mention that wanton prisoner butchering had already been normalized ITTL.
Besides, the fact that the CSA casualties being disproportionately white young men would make it very difficult for their demographic to recover. OTL interwar France is an excellent example.
I'm still not entirely convinced that a Paraguay analogue could develop here; the number of young White males killed in the Confederate Army was already (~30%) historically, and the Richmond Government found it virtually impossible to manage the Draft when it went for stricter criteria and expanded the applicable range of age of Draftees.
Well, famine might be how you could get Paraguay-level devastation.
Thomas1195
Banned
ITTL, since the war had gone full-blown Bloody Bill Anderson on both sides everywhere, plus Unionist Black troops playing a more prominent role, it is likely that there would be shitloads of civillian and prisoner massacre and destruction that would make Sherman nice in comparison.
Also, it is entirely possible that a large section of Confederates would keep fighting on ITTL even after the government surrenders - and much more deaths would occur. They were already much more radicalized ITTL after all.
That isn't a change from the original thread of history though, and it would be the Black Slaves that would bear the brunt of any Food Crisis, not the Whites.
In regards to the top, if it is seen that Black Regiments are liable to make an Spearhead Occupation more difficult, the Union Military is more likely than not to place them in the rearguard. Part of this is because it was.... seen as more acceptable for White Soldiers to loot or procure supplies from the occupied areas near the frontlines, and that Black Soldiers doing to same or worse would reinvigorate Confederate Resistance. There also was a concern once Slaves started making their way towards the Union Armies that Black Soldiers would siphon Supplies, looted or delivered, to the refugees and, on top of potentially complicating the War effort, it was thought that it might instigate tensions with the White Regiments.
Now that isn't necessarily fair, but it also makes some level of sense.
In regards to the bottom, you are more liable to see the KKK and the Knights of the White Camelia on steroids than you are an actual insurgency, though I suppose an equation can be drawn between the two in certain circumstances. And before you bring up Mosby's Rangers, his group was actively looked upon with disdain by most of the Confederate Officer Corps, and the Partisan Ranger Act when it was tried was deemed a critical failure which actively weakened the Confederacy and its Army. That doesn't mean you won't have some level of bushwhacking, but you aren't liable to see any Lemoyne Raiders either.
Side-story: "A Baseball Game"
So guys, the actual update will take a while because school is very stressing right now and I don't have the time or the energy to work in what it's perhaps the most important update thus far since we'll be seeing the beginnings of Reconstruction. I do have enough time for some light writing, however, so I wanted to write a mini-update regarding the role of women in the Civil War. I don't know if there are any women reading this TL (I'm aware the site is predominantly male - including me) but I think it's important to note their important role in this conflict and how the changes have affected it. Are there any important facts about women or any prominent women you would like to see featured?
In other news, @DTF955Baseballfan has kindly written another side-story set in the TL, this time about baseball. It's great because, since I'm not American, I know next to nothing about the sport and this is a nice bit of heartwarming Americana.
"Huzzah!" came the shout for what seemed like the millionth time. "Huzzah, to mighty John Reynolds!"
Al Reach was stretching on that fine spring day in 1863, having recently heard not only of the great deeds of the Army of the Susquehannah, but of the tremendous aftershocks which seemed to be rising from it. Suddenly, more and more young men were volunteering to fight - or, at least, help to defend.
"So, what about you?" anotherplayer asked Reach.
REach was a star first baseman, one of the top players in all of baseball. He was also the first openly professional player; he was paid by the Brooklyn Eckfords, a club not made up of sons of richer families like many clubs but of poorer families in the shipyards and elsewhere in that area.
"Shipyards are vital. Mobile must be taken, among other places. And, beside, let the boys from the richer families be taken," Reach suggested.
"Certainly, and make it even easier for the Eckfords than it was last year," another player from the shipyards said with a laugh.
Reach enjoyed the frivolity. But, he also enjoyed something else, as the game of base ball's first professional athlete - well, first openly professional one, anyway. He was beginning to feel the desire to compete that would push countless athletes to be the best they could be, to press on toward incredible records. And, in the back of his mind, the desire for more money - Philadelpiha, next year, would pay him $1,00 a year to jump teams and play for them. He was alredy hearing rumblings that they might be interested if he had a good year this year.
For now, Reach enjoyed the smell of the cool, crisp spring air. One day, there would be peace, the rebellion would be crushed, and somehow, base ball would be reshaped. The game had already seen many changes just in the last few decades - the Massachusetts game (first to 100 runs) versus the New York rules, for instance. As a famous film would state many decades later, "The one constant through all the years, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again."
Meanwhile, an officer with the Pennsylvania National Guard - having inspected the Philadelphia shipyards - was making his way to New York, to the shipyards where Reach worked.There had been draft problems in New York earlier in the year, he had a speech to give to encourage people.
Reach was intrigued, especially when he heard this man was also quite skilled at base ball. He decided, during a break in his work at the shipyards, that he'd like to meet the man. He'd heard much about the amazing, crushing defeat Colored troops had inflicted ont he rebels. Could such men be equally adept at base ball?
"Major Catto," the foreman said after Catto's speech, "this is Mr. REach, one of my best workers. Mr. Reach, Major Catto."
They spoke for a couple minutes concerning Catto's attempts to raise troops in his native Pennsylvania - both to fight and to defend the capital - and his present goal of speaking and encouraging men to volunteer. The government preferred that white men lead black troops for the moment yet, though that could change, and besides, he had done a good job organizing the area blacks to defend the temporary Capital should it be threatened, so why mess with a good thing, the government had argued.
Finally, Reach said, "I understand you are quite proficient at base ball. I, too, am quite skilled at the game. I have considered coming to Philadelphia to work; have you been to the shipyards there?" He had actually been already getting some questions about jumping to the city's Athletics.
"Yes, things there are going quite well. I came to boost morale, as I said in my speech we in Pennsylvania feel an even greater duty than we might have with not only the nation's temporary capital but also the recent invasion there."
"It was a glorious victory," Reach said. "I hope you have had success in gaining recruits; we have had quite a few men leave, though - while I registered for the draft - there is great work to be done here."
Catto agreed. "We have had great success since the invasion began. I helped to organize defenses of Philadelphia right away, because of our temporary capital. I have even met - very briefly - with the President, though I hope to do so more extensively later to discuss issues regarding Civil Right," Catto declared, interested to see Reach's stance on it.
Reach, like many Northerners, was ambivalent. He knew America had been erased and reshapen, in a way, with the Constitutional Convention replacing the Articles of Confederation. It would be again here on a much more dramatic scale. And, the future seemed uncertain; they had to get through tis war first.
Still, with the subject having been brought up, he was at least willing to ask. "Apart from an end to slavery, what is it you people want?"
Catto sensed some confusion, maybe a little defensiveness or even hostility, but he didn't take offense. He knew this was going to take a while. But, the answer was simple. Right away, he replied evenly, "Just the same thing you white people have always had." He could have gone further to explain: Freedom of opportunity; The right to have any job we want, as long as we're qualified. The right to vote; All the other things that mark a free people. But,he knew the discussion had to begin with something simple.
Reach thought about it. He'd never really considered what would happen after the war. Now, for the first time, he was really pondering the immense task at hand. These people would be starting from scratch. After a moment, he asked, "How are we going to educate all these new Freedmen so they can do this?" The task seemed insurmountable.
"I agree, it will be hard. It will be hard teaching an entire people to read and to write, to enjoy the fruit of their own labor. It will be hard that it's okay to talk together, to work together, to sit and eat together, to live together." Nonchalantly, he had cleverly turned the concept from just educating the freedmen to making life fairer for everyone. After all, someday they would have to serve side by side on interracial jries, for instance.
Catto continued as he pulled out a prop - a baseball, stitched together by hand, nothing like that which would bear Reach's name decades later.
"But, have you observed children playing together? They don't think of anything but the fun they are having. Which is why I believe baseball can be used as a teaching tool, to get to know one another, so there is not the mistrust."
Seeing Reach was ready, he lightly tossed the ball to him. Soon, they were having an easy game of catch in the middle of the shipyard.
"True. That is the way they play." Although, in a world where Reach could earn what at that time was big money - he would be paid $1,000 a year soon, given the thousands who showed up for some games - it was not quite the innocence of youth playing in the streets.
But, he didn't think of that right then. When he did later, he considered that - if this Major Catto or some other player of color were good enough - why couldn't they also be paid like him? Surely there would be enough money to go around. And, there was the nagging fear that money could ruin the game, too.
"I should like to speak with you more about base ball. I shall look you up when I am in Philadelphia." It was a promise he would keep next year.
"I would like that very much," Catto said joyfully, dreaming of the possibility that black and white teams could not only compete with one another, but that black and while players like Reach and himself could be on the same team.
It would take a few years, till after the Civil War, but even President Lincoln would call it a "noble experiment," based on the fact that children did indeed play together like that, and these men were still considered to be playing a child's game."
For now, as they finished their conversation, Catto and Reach had struck up a friendship. And, the idea that they could have something in common - even if that something were as simple as base ball - was a major step toward bringing that which once was good - the joy of youth, not caring about color but just about fun - could be had again. And the game, and field, would be not only reshaped, but would remain that constant as it played a part in the reshaping of America.
In other news, @DTF955Baseballfan has kindly written another side-story set in the TL, this time about baseball. It's great because, since I'm not American, I know next to nothing about the sport and this is a nice bit of heartwarming Americana.
A Baseball Game
"Huzzah!" came the shout for what seemed like the millionth time. "Huzzah, to mighty John Reynolds!"
Al Reach was stretching on that fine spring day in 1863, having recently heard not only of the great deeds of the Army of the Susquehannah, but of the tremendous aftershocks which seemed to be rising from it. Suddenly, more and more young men were volunteering to fight - or, at least, help to defend.
"So, what about you?" anotherplayer asked Reach.
REach was a star first baseman, one of the top players in all of baseball. He was also the first openly professional player; he was paid by the Brooklyn Eckfords, a club not made up of sons of richer families like many clubs but of poorer families in the shipyards and elsewhere in that area.
"Shipyards are vital. Mobile must be taken, among other places. And, beside, let the boys from the richer families be taken," Reach suggested.
"Certainly, and make it even easier for the Eckfords than it was last year," another player from the shipyards said with a laugh.
Reach enjoyed the frivolity. But, he also enjoyed something else, as the game of base ball's first professional athlete - well, first openly professional one, anyway. He was beginning to feel the desire to compete that would push countless athletes to be the best they could be, to press on toward incredible records. And, in the back of his mind, the desire for more money - Philadelpiha, next year, would pay him $1,00 a year to jump teams and play for them. He was alredy hearing rumblings that they might be interested if he had a good year this year.
For now, Reach enjoyed the smell of the cool, crisp spring air. One day, there would be peace, the rebellion would be crushed, and somehow, base ball would be reshaped. The game had already seen many changes just in the last few decades - the Massachusetts game (first to 100 runs) versus the New York rules, for instance. As a famous film would state many decades later, "The one constant through all the years, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again."
Meanwhile, an officer with the Pennsylvania National Guard - having inspected the Philadelphia shipyards - was making his way to New York, to the shipyards where Reach worked.There had been draft problems in New York earlier in the year, he had a speech to give to encourage people.
Reach was intrigued, especially when he heard this man was also quite skilled at base ball. He decided, during a break in his work at the shipyards, that he'd like to meet the man. He'd heard much about the amazing, crushing defeat Colored troops had inflicted ont he rebels. Could such men be equally adept at base ball?
"Major Catto," the foreman said after Catto's speech, "this is Mr. REach, one of my best workers. Mr. Reach, Major Catto."
They spoke for a couple minutes concerning Catto's attempts to raise troops in his native Pennsylvania - both to fight and to defend the capital - and his present goal of speaking and encouraging men to volunteer. The government preferred that white men lead black troops for the moment yet, though that could change, and besides, he had done a good job organizing the area blacks to defend the temporary Capital should it be threatened, so why mess with a good thing, the government had argued.
Finally, Reach said, "I understand you are quite proficient at base ball. I, too, am quite skilled at the game. I have considered coming to Philadelphia to work; have you been to the shipyards there?" He had actually been already getting some questions about jumping to the city's Athletics.
"Yes, things there are going quite well. I came to boost morale, as I said in my speech we in Pennsylvania feel an even greater duty than we might have with not only the nation's temporary capital but also the recent invasion there."
"It was a glorious victory," Reach said. "I hope you have had success in gaining recruits; we have had quite a few men leave, though - while I registered for the draft - there is great work to be done here."
Catto agreed. "We have had great success since the invasion began. I helped to organize defenses of Philadelphia right away, because of our temporary capital. I have even met - very briefly - with the President, though I hope to do so more extensively later to discuss issues regarding Civil Right," Catto declared, interested to see Reach's stance on it.
Reach, like many Northerners, was ambivalent. He knew America had been erased and reshapen, in a way, with the Constitutional Convention replacing the Articles of Confederation. It would be again here on a much more dramatic scale. And, the future seemed uncertain; they had to get through tis war first.
Still, with the subject having been brought up, he was at least willing to ask. "Apart from an end to slavery, what is it you people want?"
Catto sensed some confusion, maybe a little defensiveness or even hostility, but he didn't take offense. He knew this was going to take a while. But, the answer was simple. Right away, he replied evenly, "Just the same thing you white people have always had." He could have gone further to explain: Freedom of opportunity; The right to have any job we want, as long as we're qualified. The right to vote; All the other things that mark a free people. But,he knew the discussion had to begin with something simple.
Reach thought about it. He'd never really considered what would happen after the war. Now, for the first time, he was really pondering the immense task at hand. These people would be starting from scratch. After a moment, he asked, "How are we going to educate all these new Freedmen so they can do this?" The task seemed insurmountable.
"I agree, it will be hard. It will be hard teaching an entire people to read and to write, to enjoy the fruit of their own labor. It will be hard that it's okay to talk together, to work together, to sit and eat together, to live together." Nonchalantly, he had cleverly turned the concept from just educating the freedmen to making life fairer for everyone. After all, someday they would have to serve side by side on interracial jries, for instance.
Catto continued as he pulled out a prop - a baseball, stitched together by hand, nothing like that which would bear Reach's name decades later.
"But, have you observed children playing together? They don't think of anything but the fun they are having. Which is why I believe baseball can be used as a teaching tool, to get to know one another, so there is not the mistrust."
Seeing Reach was ready, he lightly tossed the ball to him. Soon, they were having an easy game of catch in the middle of the shipyard.
"True. That is the way they play." Although, in a world where Reach could earn what at that time was big money - he would be paid $1,000 a year soon, given the thousands who showed up for some games - it was not quite the innocence of youth playing in the streets.
But, he didn't think of that right then. When he did later, he considered that - if this Major Catto or some other player of color were good enough - why couldn't they also be paid like him? Surely there would be enough money to go around. And, there was the nagging fear that money could ruin the game, too.
"I should like to speak with you more about base ball. I shall look you up when I am in Philadelphia." It was a promise he would keep next year.
"I would like that very much," Catto said joyfully, dreaming of the possibility that black and white teams could not only compete with one another, but that black and while players like Reach and himself could be on the same team.
It would take a few years, till after the Civil War, but even President Lincoln would call it a "noble experiment," based on the fact that children did indeed play together like that, and these men were still considered to be playing a child's game."
For now, as they finished their conversation, Catto and Reach had struck up a friendship. And, the idea that they could have something in common - even if that something were as simple as base ball - was a major step toward bringing that which once was good - the joy of youth, not caring about color but just about fun - could be had again. And the game, and field, would be not only reshaped, but would remain that constant as it played a part in the reshaping of America.
So once the MLB comes around it's likely integrated from the start? Now that is going to be awesome
Perhaps not the big leagues, but some local teams in the most progressive states. Something like the Negro Leagues would probably appear in the South and the Midwest, though we could see Black against White matchups. That would already be an improvement, albeit one with possible deadly consequences (Whites rioting because a Black team won).
Could we give that a threadmark? I enjoyed that omake and think it worthy of being included in the final story (also, if it isn't given a threadmark I'll probably never find it again if/whenever if reread this)
Yeah, you're right. There are a couple of other side-stories that probably also deserve a threadmark. @DTF955Baseballfan wrote one more, while I wrote the first. "A Kentucky Boy" is mine, while "Three Farmers" is his, partly based on his ancestors as he told me.
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In "If Baseball Integrated Early" I have one League remaining segregated, the American Association, and one integrated, the National League. And the national league has the two player per team limit for a decade or more that the NFL had in the early days of integration.
So, I think what you will have instead is that you will not have a Cap Anson be allowed to keep all black players out of a league. He would either have to found his own League or the team he is on might be segregated but he would have to play with integrated teams.
So, it would be slow but you would have the same amount of integration as there was probably in our late forties in MLB without the nearly seventy year gap between Anson's tantrum and Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. There were attempts to bring black players into one league very slowly in the early 1880s after all, and Hall of Famer Frank Grant did play in the international league several years. Born in 1865, he is considered the first great black ball player. It would just remain like the 1947-1953 period for a few decades, slowly becoming more integrated.
And, probably certain cities would just be understood that they would automatically remain segregated, while others would accept a few black players.
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Ficboy
Banned
So @Red_Galiray have you read up on my timeline alongside The Rock of Chickamauga (he's currently busy and he might come back when and if the time comes), it's been undergoing tons of changes for the better.
In regards to colored officers, IIRC the highest rank one achieved in the war was as a major. Though he reaches colonel in my TL.
As to former slaves and demographics, with regards to how they'll disproportionately suffer, well that's a given. We need look no farther than Sherman's March to the Sea to see that. The columns of liberated slaves who followed the army were fed inasmuch as was possible while also feeding the troops. When the time came to attack Savannah they were left behind and many to the mercy of pursuing Confederate cavalry. Sherman made the justified point his job was to crush the South not a mission of emancipation. His flying columns couldn't protect and provision the slaves at the same time.
While a mission of general emancipation is possible in areas the Union occupies in force, a March to the Sea scenario makes the opposite true. And on a smaller scale, the army won't really be able to go out of it's way to protect and provision freedmen if that means reducing the armies effectiveness.
I'm still early into this timeline, but just because of curiosity, what happened to these guys?
If you don't mind I could incorporate similar ideas here, since I don't know anything about baseball but still think that integrated sports and government are ways that racial harmony can eventually come in a distant future.
Sorry, but like I stated I am very busy these days with college and don't really have time to do anything but quickly skimming through. What I have read seems good to me. The idea of a Civil War in the 1850's is a good one! But, unfortunately, I can't really offer any constructive criticism.
Brooks died as in OTL, in 1857 before the war. If it's any consolation, the slaver died a "painful death" according to Wikipedia. Keitt joined the Confederate Army IOL, so it's likely he joined it as well ITTL. IOTL he never really achieved any distinction, and died at Cold Harbor IIRC. Let's just assume that he joined the Army and dies as well. I'd like to keep my possibilities open, so I won't state how and when he dies in case I want to bring him back for any reason, like, an humiliating death.
Go right ahead. I will PM you some general info and where the diversions might occur in your TL.