I would say that the Federalists survive, they're just a smaller party confined mainly to the "deep north", that is New England. They either continue to exist and evolve into a more anti-Catholic Know Nothing-esque party or a party like that splits off from them. This distatste for Catholics evolves out of two things: 1) the existing anti-Catholic sentiment in New England where the party elite and support base are 2) the idea that Catholic groups, like the French and Spanish, being given language and cultural preservation rights erodes America's national unity and is a threat to the centralized, united country that the Federalists want.
This looks about right. I could imagine that, as the Dem-Reps evolve and splinter (and gain support in New England more over time), the more outwardly anti-Catholic Federalists shrink into the Know-Nothings (likely still called Federalists).

The Dem Reps are pretty likely to split up IMO. The Federalists and Democratic Republicans are already both fairly broad parties in terms of ideas, and lack cohesion. The shrinking of the Federalists preserves their unity, but I think that, at the very least, the Dem-Reps are going to split into factions, however, I doubt that the Whigs will exist as we know them (they are named as successors in the Dem-Rep wikibox though).
To be honest it might not be the best to follow that wikibox. I didn't have any ideas for the post Dem-Rep era, to be honest, and I could definitely rework that wikibox some!
I definitely agree, though, that the future of the Dem-Rep party sees it separating into a couple different parties -- and have a couple names and basic stances:
Nationalist Party -- generally Dem-Reps and moderate Federalists who oppose some centralization but not others (think Henry Clay or DeWitt Clinton -- who would likely be heads of the party depending on when it forms).
Agrarian Party -- the more idealistic, Jeffersonian Dem-Reps: the yeoman is the real American type, etc. Very against businesses, very against big government, etc.
And probably other parties: likely a Free Soil Party (or related anti-slavery group) headed particularly by former Federalists and Northern Dem-Reps,
 
This looks about right. I could imagine that, as the Dem-Reps evolve and splinter (and gain support in New England more over time), the more outwardly anti-Catholic Federalists shrink into the Know-Nothings (likely still called Federalists).


To be honest it might not be the best to follow that wikibox. I didn't have any ideas for the post Dem-Rep era, to be honest, and I could definitely rework that wikibox some!
I definitely agree, though, that the future of the Dem-Rep party sees it separating into a couple different parties -- and have a couple names and basic stances:
Nationalist Party -- generally Dem-Reps and moderate Federalists who oppose some centralization but not others (think Henry Clay or DeWitt Clinton -- who would likely be heads of the party depending on when it forms).
Agrarian Party -- the more idealistic, Jeffersonian Dem-Reps: the yeoman is the real American type, etc. Very against businesses, very against big government, etc.
And probably other parties: likely a Free Soil Party (or related anti-slavery group) headed particularly by former Federalists and Northern Dem-Reps,

I agree that we shouldn't be afraid to retcon parts of wikiboxes and am a fan of the parties you've suggested.

I see the Nationalist party opposing monolingualism and federally imposed anti-slavery laws (iT's StAtEs rIgHtS gUyS) as well as maybe opposing increased executive power, while, say supporting a central bank, which is a useful for having a functioning country and was IOTL a point that later moderate Dem Reps and Whigs were fine with. I could see them supporting more centralized trade policy, as, if they compete with the Agrarian party, they will inevitably become favored and thus influenced by, the urban coastal elite and large-scale southern planters, who would benefit from a more unified set of trade laws, rather than the states trading as if they were separate countries.

I love the Agrarian party, and see it getting a lot of support in the rural parts of the US particularly in frontier states that were recently admitted to the union. I wonder if something similar to Georgism would appear (given that the overall economic situation in the rural US is not too different, it seems at least plausible), and I wonder how it might affect the Agrarians. Then again, Georgism seems a bit too lefty for the Agrarians, I understand them more as a rural populist center-right sort of party.

I agree on the "Free Soil" kind of party, and like the OTL name, though liberty party, or a more cumbersome name (such as "society for the emancipation of enslaved n*groes") are also possible, among many other options. I could see it arising out of some christian movement or out of a liberal/republican movement that is more secular in nature, that would effect the party's overall character, or, even more likely, it would be a coalition of several abolitionist groups with that as its only stance.

I can also see a Francophone party or Dem-Rep faction emerging in Canada (Quebec), Ontario, and the Acadian communities in Laurentia (New Brunswick) and Nova Scotia. If they're a separate party, I think they'd either only run in state elections or cooperate very closely with the Democratic Republicans and their successors.

I'd expect Clay rather than Clinton to form the Nationalists, as I don't think that the Dem Reps would break up too soon, but then again, maybe they would.

[edit: also, I'd expect anti-Masonism to play a role in the more religious later federalists. It goes neatly against their beliefs. They're strictly protestant, and thus distrustful of pseudoreligious fraternal societies, and they like a centralized government and identity, and would dislike a potential "outside influence".]

[We've had one, yes, but what about second edit? I was thinking about party colors and symbols, and I thought, federalists would continue to use black and white, or maybe dark grey and white, and the federalist cockade not sure about a secondary symbol, maybe the Fasces. The Nationalists, I would imagine use red white and blue, and possibly the Democratic-Republican cockade maybe an eagle or a phrygian cap as their secondary symbol. The Agrarians I'd imagine use green and either yellow/gold or maybe buff as their colors (green for agrarianism in general, plants, green country landscapes, yellow or buff for wheat, a key part of the rural landscape and imagery). Sheaves or ears of wheat or a farming tool (not a sickle to avoid convergence with OTLs communism, so maybe a scythe, a rake, or a plow), maybe a tool and an ear of wheat. The free soil party would likely use broken chains as their main symbol or maybe try to appropriate the liberty bell. Actually, given that it was originally a symbol of freed slaves, the Phrygian cap makes sense here too. If there is a francophone party, the Fleur de Lis is the obvious choice.]
 
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I agree on the "Free Soil" kind of party, and like the OTL name, though liberty party, or a more cumbersome name (such as "society for the emancipation of enslaved n*groes") are also possible, among many other options. I could see it arising out of some christian movement or out of a liberal/republican movement that is more secular in nature, that would effect the party's overall character, or, even more likely, it would be a coalition of several abolitionist groups with that as its only stance.
All those names work! Free Soil has historical basis, but on the "Enslaved" part, there was the real-life Pennsylvania Abolition Society whose full name is similar to the clunky one you proposed. It would likely be a mixture of abolitionist Dem-Reps, Federalists (the two or three that exist by that point), and a coalition of independent abolitionists (be them Quakers or Abolition Societies).

I can also see a Francophone party or Dem-Rep faction emerging in Canada (Quebec), Ontario, and the Acadian communities in Laurentia (New Brunswick) and Nova Scotia. If they're a separate party, I think they'd either only run in state elections or cooperate very closely with the Democratic Republicans and their successors.
I was going to suggest a Francophone/Catholic faction, though didn't know what to name it, or how it'd work. The things you propose seem like they would work perfectly!

also, I'd expect anti-Masonism to play a role in the more religious later federalists. It goes neatly against their beliefs. They're strictly protestant, and thus distrustful of pseudoreligious fraternal societies, and they like a centralized government and identity, and would dislike a potential "outside influence".
This is actually really interesting, as that would mean that Federalists would have a bit more range to them in terms of real-life figures. There was an Anti-Masonic Party that featured Whigs and other folks who might gravitate towards a more outwardly pro-Protestant party.

Federalists would continue to use black and white, or maybe dark grey and white, and the federalist cockade not sure about a secondary symbol, maybe the Fasces.
I actually really like the idea of the Federalists using the fasces as a symbol. As a symbol of strong nationalism it works well, I think. Also some connotations would definitely bleed in that work a little well for these Federalists.

The Nationalists, I would imagine use red white and blue, and possibly the Democratic-Republican cockade maybe an eagle or a phrygian cap as their secondary symbol.
I would need to do more research before proposing any alternatives. These all seem good. If you don't want the cockade as a secondary symbol, perhaps a tricolor utilizing red-white-blue (hopefully different from the French flag), as tricolors have been associated with republicanism.

The Agrarians I'd imagine use green and either yellow/gold or maybe buff as their colors (green for agrarianism in general, plants, green country landscapes, yellow or buff for wheat, a key part of the rural landscape and imagery). Sheaves or ears of wheat or a farming tool (not a sickle to avoid convergence with OTLs communism, so maybe a scythe, a rake, or a plow), maybe a tool and an ear of wheat.
Green and buff might be the best, since green was the original color of the Dem-Rep Party IRL. If you need a symbol, I used this in an old timeline of mine:
Republican Party roundel.png
It's a bit modern, but I think something like this would work well! Definitely needs to be more complex to match those mid-19th century aesthetics, though.

The free soil party would likely use broken chains as their main symbol or maybe try to appropriate the liberty bell. Actually, given that it was originally a symbol of freed slaves, the Phrygian cap makes sense here too.
Both of these suggestions are really good, actually.

If there is a francophone party, the Fleur de Lis is the obvious choice.]
Fleur-de-lis works, though it was a symbol for the monarchy. Another good symbol would probably be the Gallic rooster!
 
All those names work! Free Soil has historical basis, but on the "Enslaved" part, there was the real-life Pennsylvania Abolition Society whose full name is similar to the clunky one you proposed. It would likely be a mixture of abolitionist Dem-Reps, Federalists (the two or three that exist by that point), and a coalition of independent abolitionists (be them Quakers or Abolition Societies).

Now that I think about it, Free Soil is by far the best. I think that as a broader coalition, they would try to avoid a name that is too specific or sounds like the name of any one abolition society or one group, so something broadly anti-Slavery, short, and easy to remember works best. Even if a long name (which were popular at the time) was used, I think a short one would develop among people that don't want to say things like Coalition for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage or something like that every time they talk about the political party that they support.

I did base the clunky name off that group, but wanted to make it a little bit different, and the name I wrote is what I managed to come up with at midnight.

I was going to suggest a Francophone/Catholic faction, though didn't know what to name it, or how it'd work. The things you propose seem like they would work perfectly!

I'm glad my ideas make sense.

This is actually really interesting, as that would mean that Federalists would have a bit more range to them in terms of real-life figures. There was an Anti-Masonic Party that featured Whigs and other folks who might gravitate towards a more outwardly pro-Protestant party.

My thoughts exactly.

I actually really like the idea of the Federalists using the fasces as a symbol. As a symbol of strong nationalism it works well, I think. Also some connotations would definitely bleed in that work a little well for these Federalists.

Exactly. It's a symbol of early republicanism (old US buildings and statues are full of fasces), a symbol of strong national unity, and a bit militaristic. It's OTL association with authoritarianism and discrimination fits in quite nicely. The Federalists really are going to look evil ITTL, what with their main color being black and their symbol being the fasces.

I would need to do more research before proposing any alternatives. These all seem good. If you don't want the cockade as a secondary symbol, perhaps a tricolor utilizing red-white-blue (hopefully different from the French flag), as tricolors have been associated with republicanism.

Maybe reverse the tricolor or make it a horizontal one (not the Dutch one, but the South Slavic tricolor wasn't around yet, so an upside-down Dutch tricolor could work), but I kind of like the Cockades. The early parties all used them (Feds, Dem Reps, and even IRC, the Whigs had one), and they're kind of neat. They also to some extent avoid the confusion with a foreign flag. Maybe inverting the Dem-Rep cockade, so blue on the outside, red on the inside, could work??...

Also, the name. I'm not 100% sure about it. It's good, but maybe there's another that would work? Maybe even just the national party or the patriotic party? National-Patriotic? They kind of give me more early US vibes, but I still can't decide whether I like them more or less than Nationalist party. Bah, might as well stick with it. It's a good name.

Green and buff might be the best, since green was the original color of the Dem-Rep Party IRL. If you need a symbol, I used this in an old timeline of mine:
View attachment 536462
It's a bit modern, but I think something like this would work well! Definitely needs to be more complex to match those mid-19th century aesthetics, though.

I like it. IDK if I'll have time to try to make a more complex one, would you be able to try your hand at that?

To make it look like other 19th century symbols and logos, a sheaf of wheat with a green ribbon wrapped around it?

This symbol could certainly work for some kind of potential modern successor though.

Both of these suggestions are really good, actually.
Thanks. I really can't decide between them and we kind of need to.

Fleur-de-lis works, though it was a symbol for the monarchy. Another good symbol would probably be the Gallic rooster!

An excellent point. I've always liked the Gallic rooster as a symbol, I just got too hung up on symbols used by Quebec and Louisiana IOTL. The rooster certainly works better. It also nicely plays into OTLs system of animals as US party logos.
 
@Bennett what would you say the Ideology of these parties would be (in terms of what goes on a wikibox, as I'm working on a nationalist party one rn).

For the Nationalists, I've got:
  • Moderate Anti-Federalism
  • Republicanism
  • Classical liberalism
  • Secularism
  • Multilingualism
  • Centrism
  • Pro business
  • American Nationalism

For the Agrarians I was thinking:
  • Populism
  • Agrarianism (obviously)
  • Anti-Federalism
  • Republicanism
  • Classical Liberalism

For the Federalists:
  • Federalism
  • Centralization
  • Anti-Clericalism
  • Anti-Catholicism
  • Anti-Masonism
  • Classical Conservatism
  • Expansionism
  • Manifest Destiny
  • Modernization
  • Protectionism
  • American school?

What do you think? Anything need to be added or removed?
 
I know that we didn't want this thread to turn into an entirely election driven thread, but I think it might be useful for us to show some of the elections, especially right before the civil war. Would you mind if I tried to work on something like that?
 
I know that we didn't want this thread to turn into an entirely election driven thread, but I think it might be useful for us to show some of the elections, especially right before the civil war. Would you mind if I tried to work on something like that?

I agree that, while we shouldn't exclusively focus on US elections, we should know what happens in some of them, both to help us figure out where history goes, and to add detail to the world.

If you're going to be working on that, I've got some more stuff to dump on you. Bennett and Citizen Keynes had some ideas about early presidents and their cabinets that could come in handy for your work. It could help you come up with an overall political climate in the US.

Here is a possible Cabinet for Roger Sherman:

Secretary of State: James Madison [1]
Secretary of the Treasury: Robert Morris [2]
Secretary of War: Horatio Gates [3]
Attorney General: William Paterson [4]

[1] The drafter of the revised Articles of Confederation, he is all but guaranteed a spot in the new Cabinet, and, as the author of the Virginia Plan, his appointment helps to create ideological unity.
[2] The financier of the Revolution, Morris accepts the post unlike OTL, where he was Washington’s first choice and recommended Hamilton instead.
[3] The victor of Saratoga, Gates never loses at Camden like OTL, so his reputation stays intact, and Washington recommends Gates, his former adjutant, to Sherman.
[4] The leading force behind the New Jersey Plan, his influence balances out Madison’s, and his record as New Jersey Attorney General during the Revolution makes him clearly the most qualified for the job.

This looks great! Here's a possible cabinet under the Madison Administration:

Secretary of State: Thomas Jefferson [1]
Secretary of the Treasury: ??
Secretary of War: Henry Knox (until 1795) [2], Replaced by undecided figure (Dem-Rep).
Attorney General: Edmund Randolph [3]

[1] Of course it'd be Jefferson. Who else would it be?
[2] A solid choice, I suppose. Was Secretary of War under the Confederation Period, so he also has experience.
[3] First Attorney General under Washington's Administration. He was a Federalist, though very keen on diplomatic matters -- wanting to keep a middle ground

The idea I'm going for is that Madison wants to be a moderate, compromising president, but by the end of his administration his cabinet is solidly DemRep.
 

Deleted member 107125

Mysore would probably ally the Muslim kingdoms of the south like the Carnatic, Cannanore, and Cochin.
An alliance with America or France might work- Tipu wanted to educate his son in France.
Afghanistan may be too remote.
 
Mysore would probably ally the Muslim kingdoms of the south like the Carnatic, Cannanore, and Cochin.
An alliance with America or France might work- Tipu wanted to educate his son in France.
Afghanistan may be too remote.

What do you think about the rest of the India stuff in the older post? I'm kind of interested in whether that makes even the slightest bit of sense and if not, what would.

Also, the idea of more and more southern Indian Muslim kingdoms siding with Mysore sounds good if they do well in the later Anglo-Mysore wars. It would be kind of neat to have a sort of league of local kingdoms opposing the British and it could also significantly prolong Mysore's independence.

The US does dislike Britain, but I don't see America going all the way to India to fight the British. Again, like the Ottomans, I can see them maybe sending/selling weapons, but I find American intervention even less likely that Ottoman intervention. France seems more likely, but still not very. Like, France trying to project power in far off lands is pretty much a given, but I doubt that it would try to fight Britain except during the Napoleonic wars. However, I'm sure France would like to mess with Britain's wealthiest colony during the Napoleonic wars, the question then becomes, could it? Again, certainly, France would surely try to send weapons (damn, Mysore has the potential to be really well armed), but would they be able to round the Cape of Good Hope to send people and resources? I'm not sure. What would you say?
 
So, as you may have noticed, I've been thinking about various random parts of the world to try to get an idea of how they could change ITTL.

So I've recently set my mind on New Zealand. As I understand it, the British didn't really care that much about colonizing/settling it (which is part of why it has such a large surviving indigenous population IOTL). The big reasons for colonizing it were preventing other powers from getting their hands on it, and stopping their whalers, who had to a limited extent settled the smaller islands and the coasts, from killing each other. Basically, the reasons boil down to prestige and law and order. IOTL, they actually granted the Maori sovereignty over New Zealand, effectively making it a country (the united tribes of Aotearoa), just so that there would be a legitimate government to hand over control to them (as getting land from every individual chief presumably would have been a pain in the butt). However, the Brits even then didn't really care whether they got all of the country as a direct possession. Their diplomats were instructed to "buy all or part of New Zealand". I think you now have an idea of where this is going.

The treaty that the Maori chiefs signed had 2 versions, an English and a Maori one, which were different. The Maori understood the treaty was making them a protectorate of Britain (as they were told when the UTA formed). The English version made them British citizens and gave all of their land to the king.

Now, the Maori chiefs, at least in a large chunk of North Island, were pretty pro-British, and willing to be a protectorate, and the diplomats and early governors of New Zealand were supportive of Maori culture, as long as they got to trade with the Maori and dock ships on New Zealand.

With the British distracted with a new and growing colony in South America, and maybe a war with neighboring Argentine states, possibly renewed war with Mysore, they would have less time, interest, and resources for a direct colonization of NZ.

So the idea is, direct colonization of the South Island, along with smaller Islands like Rakiura and maybe the Northland region (the long peninsula on North Island). These were regions with more European settlement or lower Maori populations. On the other hand, North Island would be a British dependency/protectorate under Maori rule, maybe called the Federation of Aotearoa or simply remaining the United Tribes.
Practically all of South Island was bought by Europeans by the time they managed to buy the Aukland, Northland, and Wellington regions of North Island, so it makes sense that it would be on the North Island where Maori autonomy survives.

IOTL, the settling and annexation of New Zealand happens around the 1850s and early 1860s.

NZ protectorate idea map rough.png

There is also the matter of one French settlement on South Island (Akaroa), but I doubt that that would be different enough ITTL to actually be important beyond further motivating the British to take control of New Zealand, and may not even exist ITTL.

American whalers also frequently visited, New Zealand. While the US government is unlikely to have much interests in the islands, I can see some interesting dynamic developing between them and the British. They might be pretty aggressive towards the local British, and were IOTL noted to be disrespectful towards the Maori (but then, so were British whalers, and both had to tone it down to be able to trade with them). There is the possibility of an attempt at filibustering here, but it didn't happen IOTL, where the US was more expansionist than ITTL, so I kind of doubt it.

My thoughts on Japan might be coming soon if I get the chance to do a bit more research.

[edit: do you think any of this New Zealand stuff makes sense?]
 
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So I decided to rework India substantially. This is still a rough version, but it's getting closer to being right. The last map had some fairly random borders and others that looked closer to OTLs 1850 than 1830 (notably Afghanistan). I took some of @Hindustani Person 's advice, but still feel like I've got it all wrong and messed up, so I absolutely need help with this.

So, the situation is as follows: After the longer Napoleonic wars and a couple of annoying Anglo-Mysore wars, the British have gotten their sнit together and had a fun time ripping chunks out of the declining Maratha empire, though a rump state remains, waiting to be finished off. Mysore & co (maybe called the Deccan League) have been fighting hard to remain independent, but slowly (a lot slower than IOTL) losing land to the British. The Carnatic/Arcot is doing the worst out of the three, with the British having swallowed up the vast majority of its territory. It survives exclusively in the areas that Mysore itself is able to occupy to keep the British out of. Mysore is doing pretty well for itself, having actually lost very little land. This alliance dates back to shortly after the ARW, during the earlier Anglo-Mysore wars. In the north I presume things will go more or less as IOTL up to this point. The Sikhs are in a good place right now, while Afghanistan is picking itself up again after the collapse of the Durrani empire and is probably going to start fighting the Sikhs some time in the near future.


Colossus India.png
 
Poor Marathas

The saddest thing is that they're doing better than IOTL, where they were completely absorbed by the 1830s (actually, even by 1820 they were already gone). Then again, maybe that whole exclave situation is a fate worse than death. I'd expect the British to finish them off anyway soon in a fourth Anglo-Maratha war.

Now I'd kind of like to have the British just give up on Mysore so at least one Indian state gets out of this alive (also Mysore's borders look good), but I'm not sure how plausible that is.
 
Ignoring the work I should be doing on Germany yet again, I have decided to undertake the colossal task of making a world map. As You can probably see, it is a lot larger than a Q-BAM. I'm not sure what the format actually is, so if someone could tell me, that would be nice. The base itself is not my own work. I accidentally saved it as a JPEG, so that might be the reason for the fuzziness, I will use a PNG if I finish it. Oman has no connection to Austria, and Japan has no connection to mexico, are the colors confusingly close to each other? Central America also needs a color change.

fFR814M.jpg
 
Nice! What year is the map from?

Thanks.

I realize I've actually kind of goofed, all the borders are 1830 except New Zealand which if its settlement is as fast as or slower than OTL should be later than that, and I haven't differentiated between settled and claimed land in Austrialia and Siberia.

Other than that, it's all as it should be I think. India is going slower than IOTL for the British, but Burma's a little bit faster, hence the difference there.
Most of this map is stuff that's either the same as IOTL or that we've already agreed on.

[edit: ottoman possessions in Africa aren't done, if that's confusing you.]
 
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