Good you dropped by. What would you have my favorite team (the British who already won IOTL) do?
The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine
- Thread starter Gudestein
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- reichsmarine ww1 ww2
Unless another was built, the RN has only 2 Queen Elizabeth class. The other three got sunk in the various battles. Counting the KGV class that are coming down the line, I estimate that the RN has the following:
1. Queen Elizabeth
2. Malaya
3. Revenge
4. Royal Sovereign
5. Ramillies
6. Royal Oak
7. Repulse
8. Renown
9. Hood
10. Rodney (Admiral class)
11. Howe (Admiral class)
12. Anson (Admiral class)
13. Nelson
14. St. Vincent(Rodney is taken ITTL)
15. King George V
16. Prince of Wales
17. Duke of York
18. Trafalgar (Anson is taken ITTL)
19. Temeraire (Howe is taken ITTL)
Given these numbers, it wouldn't surprise me to see the RN attempting to wheedle an additional Nelson during the interwar, since they are one 15" short of OTL, and I suspect that none of the signatories will want to see another Admiral built. Remember, they are seen at the time as being 32 knot Queen Elizabeths, and no joke. That said, it's entirely possible that the treaty signers say "NO", since the RN has a very high speed battle line available. 4 Hood and 2 Repulse are not a force to take lightly, especially if the Repulses are up-armored during refit.
Note that the names I gave for the Admirals were planned OTL, thus I gave different names to other vessels.
I thought about it (an extra amiral or Nelson) but decided no. Even one short, the British have a much more modern fleet than IOTL. Compared to OTL, they are even more in the green. ITTL its the Germans that are off.
I think this comment is a wrong thing to post in 2 ways.
1st, this is an alternate history forum. You are allowed to explore what preconditions are required for alternative outcomes without being (indirectly, the other side is the one you like?) a nazi?
2nd, IMHO, were this TL jump the shark is in the cunning and intent of the Germans. This have been rightfully criticised and in a reallly good TL would have been better research (sorry if I failed yoy Nomonsen). On the contrary, I have been very careful that the Germans did not reveal a more thretening picture before they did IOTL. As an example, IOTL nobody reacted to the duly noted observation that the Bismarck was a few meters deeper than anticipated (=almost 10000 tons).
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I definitely agree with you. Churchill would have considered giving up brandy to change 3 Queens out for 3 Hoods, upgrades or no.
Chapter 43: The battle of the South Iceland Bassin part 1.
Chapter 43: The battle of the South Iceland Bassin part 1.
The conditions that led the Kriegsmarine to offer battles were unusually calm seas and clear skies. With 36 He-112B, 24 Fi-167, 24 JU.87C operating from the Northern most fleet carrier Graf Zeppelin and 48 He-112B, 36 Fi-167 and 24 JU-87C from the converted carrier Hamburg, the Germans had the clear reconnaissance advantage. The battle commenced at 10 am. 300 miles south-south-west of Iceland with an air strike from Graf Zeppelin that focused on the carrier which operated on the eastern most fringe of the battlegroup. The He-112B clearly outclassed the Skua’s and Gladiator’s that rose to meet them and the Ju-87C initiated the attack, focusing on the Ark Royal but also hitting the accompanying cruisers Naiad and Phoebe*. Ark Royal was hit by two 500 kg bombs, one of which would disable the flight deck, the other penetrating deeper and starting a fire in the hangar. Naiad was hid amidships, with the bomb penetrating to the engine room and Phoebe was hit once on the forecastle and one on the side, disabling two gun -batteries and letting on water. All three ships were subsequently sunk by torpedoes carried by the 36 Fi-167. A smaller group of aircraft also attacked the light cruiser Glasgow and had three aircraft shot down with no hits on the Glasgow.
The Germans lost 5 He-112B, 8 Fi-167 and 4 JU-87C’s, while the British lost the Ark Royal , Naiad and Phoebe. The British battlegroup therefore consisted of Hood, Anson and Renown as well as the escorting ships Glasgow, Edinburgh and Birmingham and the large destroyers Jersey, Jaguar, Kingston, Kandahar and Jarvis.
The second air strike commenced from the Graf Zeppelin at 11.30. Between the first air strike and then, the British had continued westwards while Kandahar and Jarvis were picking up survivors and the battlegroups were rapidly closing to within maximal shooting range.
Knowing they would meet no air borne opposition the He-112B’s were equipped with 2 50 kg bombs and would race ahead. Approximately half of them found their mark in Kandahar and Jarvis which were both damaged and crippled while the remaining attacked the Jersey, Jaguar and Kingston and continued to strafe the Royal Navy cruisers as the real attack commenced.
The 24 JU-87’s focused on the Hood and Anson which were both hit several times. Hood in the forecastle. Amidships taking out a boiler room and without penetration on the top of the turbine for the most starboard propeller. Hood would need extensive repairs before it could hope to get the speed back up beyond 20 knots. Flooding further brought her down 4 feet across the bow. Anson faired slightly better with a single hit which penetrated deep into the stern and caused flooding, but no mechanical damage.
At the same time, the Glasgow and Edinburgh received a bomb hit each, one of them causing Glasgow to blow it in a cordite explosion.
The torpedo attacks also left their mark and Birmingham was sunk rapidly by two hits and a stern hit on Anson also caused flooding, but no serious damage. Anson was however a few feet low at the Bow.
In these attacks, the Germans suffered quite heavy losses of 4 He-112B, 8 Fi-187 and 7 JU-87’s, but clearly, it had been worth it. The British battlegroup was significantly damaged and could no longer hope to run.
The third phase of the battle commenced with the German heavy guns started shooting their 42 cm shells at 12.15. Theu opened fire from a range of 35 km with spotting aircraft guiding their aim.
*The Dido class is a little accelerated ITTL.
The conditions that led the Kriegsmarine to offer battles were unusually calm seas and clear skies. With 36 He-112B, 24 Fi-167, 24 JU.87C operating from the Northern most fleet carrier Graf Zeppelin and 48 He-112B, 36 Fi-167 and 24 JU-87C from the converted carrier Hamburg, the Germans had the clear reconnaissance advantage. The battle commenced at 10 am. 300 miles south-south-west of Iceland with an air strike from Graf Zeppelin that focused on the carrier which operated on the eastern most fringe of the battlegroup. The He-112B clearly outclassed the Skua’s and Gladiator’s that rose to meet them and the Ju-87C initiated the attack, focusing on the Ark Royal but also hitting the accompanying cruisers Naiad and Phoebe*. Ark Royal was hit by two 500 kg bombs, one of which would disable the flight deck, the other penetrating deeper and starting a fire in the hangar. Naiad was hid amidships, with the bomb penetrating to the engine room and Phoebe was hit once on the forecastle and one on the side, disabling two gun -batteries and letting on water. All three ships were subsequently sunk by torpedoes carried by the 36 Fi-167. A smaller group of aircraft also attacked the light cruiser Glasgow and had three aircraft shot down with no hits on the Glasgow.
The Germans lost 5 He-112B, 8 Fi-167 and 4 JU-87C’s, while the British lost the Ark Royal , Naiad and Phoebe. The British battlegroup therefore consisted of Hood, Anson and Renown as well as the escorting ships Glasgow, Edinburgh and Birmingham and the large destroyers Jersey, Jaguar, Kingston, Kandahar and Jarvis.
The second air strike commenced from the Graf Zeppelin at 11.30. Between the first air strike and then, the British had continued westwards while Kandahar and Jarvis were picking up survivors and the battlegroups were rapidly closing to within maximal shooting range.
Knowing they would meet no air borne opposition the He-112B’s were equipped with 2 50 kg bombs and would race ahead. Approximately half of them found their mark in Kandahar and Jarvis which were both damaged and crippled while the remaining attacked the Jersey, Jaguar and Kingston and continued to strafe the Royal Navy cruisers as the real attack commenced.
The 24 JU-87’s focused on the Hood and Anson which were both hit several times. Hood in the forecastle. Amidships taking out a boiler room and without penetration on the top of the turbine for the most starboard propeller. Hood would need extensive repairs before it could hope to get the speed back up beyond 20 knots. Flooding further brought her down 4 feet across the bow. Anson faired slightly better with a single hit which penetrated deep into the stern and caused flooding, but no mechanical damage.
At the same time, the Glasgow and Edinburgh received a bomb hit each, one of them causing Glasgow to blow it in a cordite explosion.
The torpedo attacks also left their mark and Birmingham was sunk rapidly by two hits and a stern hit on Anson also caused flooding, but no serious damage. Anson was however a few feet low at the Bow.
In these attacks, the Germans suffered quite heavy losses of 4 He-112B, 8 Fi-187 and 7 JU-87’s, but clearly, it had been worth it. The British battlegroup was significantly damaged and could no longer hope to run.
The third phase of the battle commenced with the German heavy guns started shooting their 42 cm shells at 12.15. Theu opened fire from a range of 35 km with spotting aircraft guiding their aim.
*The Dido class is a little accelerated ITTL.
108 planes on the Hamburg, and 84 on Zeppelin? That would be very large complements, even by American standards. The Yorktown class carried 90, the Essex class could get a hair over 100.
The damage seems reasonable. A hit down the funnel would absolutely do...unpleasant things to a boiler. Anson's hit would have been in the lesser armored areas aft of the turrets. That said, I would expect the Admirals to have sufficient deck armor to resist the JU-87's 500 kg bombs in their vitals.
The damage seems reasonable. A hit down the funnel would absolutely do...unpleasant things to a boiler. Anson's hit would have been in the lesser armored areas aft of the turrets. That said, I would expect the Admirals to have sufficient deck armor to resist the JU-87's 500 kg bombs in their vitals.
I see that the Admiralty has been upping its lead ration in the tea again.
I'm sorry but having individual panzerschiffe slip out of German waters into the North sea and Atlantic is one thing, but getting virtually their entire fleet out there and getting in the first strike that (of course) takes out Ark Royal is... utterly unsurprising for a thread by Gudestein.
In other words, no, hell no and wow, really hell no.
I do not anticipate further comments as I will just get cross.
I'm sorry but having individual panzerschiffe slip out of German waters into the North sea and Atlantic is one thing, but getting virtually their entire fleet out there and getting in the first strike that (of course) takes out Ark Royal is... utterly unsurprising for a thread by Gudestein.
In other words, no, hell no and wow, really hell no.
I do not anticipate further comments as I will just get cross.
They get out there in peace time, so there is no way to stop them.
Getting the first strike and going after the carrier? Indeed, why not? The British carrier aircraft of the day would be outclassed ITTL. The German He112B Can take a peak and run to safety, the British scouts would be shot down. As outlined in the preceding chapters we are quite far from OTL, and in naval air the British are quantitatively and qualitatively outclassed.
This is basically the sinkning of force Z of TTL. That not having happened yet is off course the cause of the admiralty’s miscalculation, but if they did thst mistake in 1941 iotl, I dont think its unfair that they do it in 1939 ITTL.
Regarding the armor, 500 kg is a fairly Big bomb and they did resist it over the magazines which is where the armor got thickened.
I’ll check the flight numbers, though keep in mind that one of the carriers is quite huge.
I am not saying that they would be stopped, I am saying that they would be spotted by either routine air patrols or civilian or even naval units in peace time mode. Individual ships are less likely to be seen than entire flotillas and as this is 1939 it is not implausible for a Norwegian ship to spot them and radio a "Are we at war yet?" signal or three.
I'm sorry but this thread is predicated on the Royal Navy, once again, utterly dropping the ball against their closest main rival. The German preparations are going to be noticed and acted on. In short - no extra ration of lead in the tea.
Yes, I know, I said I wouldn't comment again, but this has echoes of Ovaron.
Ovaron is an ex-member who wrote one of the great bad timelines. It was the AH equivalent of Brian Griffin's Faster Than The Speed Of Love.
It made everyone's head hurt and there was a very plausible theory that he was writing it purely to see the 'OMG!!!!! WTF AM I READING????' reactions. Once everyone stopped reacting to it he stopped writing it. What a strange co-incidence!
These carriers are basically matching otl Essex with a deck park as the Essex and less than otl midway despite being larger. The problems of organizing very large air wings would not be realized when the very large liners were designed for conversion. It will take longer than it should to get the first aircrafts recovered and a second strike in the air, but so far they only launched once.
In otl in 1941 with radar it took a single turn for Bismarck and Prinz Eugen to lose their tail, it would be no problem at night in 1939.
As for spotting preparations the British did notice ittl and they are quite frightened. But they noticed too late. There were 40 chapters covering the German preparations and the Germans ittl only unmasked from the agn too late for the British response.
Were the Germans using coal dust as a screen?
But seriously, this is the fundamental problem with all Ovaron-esque German naval threads. The Germans have created a large fleet with no response from the Brits, have an effective carrier force created out of nothing and have managed a pre-emptive strike on the British fleet to bleed away their advantage. Multiple PoDs and a gigantic, years long deception scheme do not a plausible story make.
I loved it to. What enthusiasm. Regarding him stopping his writing that was a cheap shot from Cymraeg. His thread was removed which is quite disheartening.