The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine

I tried to look into how the British handled convoy escorts IOTL and they preferred to keep the heavies apart and together. COnsequently, a convoy this large should be a major predicament and anti-submarine measures are not at all developed yet.
Does this level of difficulty seem realistic? Now the German submarines will spend the day sailing back in front of the convoys path, and unlike OTL, the royal navy ships are afraid of straying to far from the convoy as they are either outgunned our outrun (eg. going ahead with the nelrods would leave the convoy defenseless, going ahead with something else would get that force shot to pieces).

The RN battleships should stick together. They know there is more than one heavy out there, and to split the heavies would risk defeat in detail. The main force (Battleships, some destroyers) would likely be placed near the rear of the convoy. Destroyers would range ahead, and corvettes along the sides. Cruisers would probably stick with the heavy units. Here's a diagram of one RN convoy with a battleship.

AtlanticFormation.gif
 
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Thoughts

The British damage control parties seem to be out of luck with the HMS Ramillies torpedo bulge defences failing miserably.

Qustions

Now how much radar did the British Convoy had since their were surfaced submarines briefly?

- Also the British should have at least known a sizable force of submarines were following them from the recon and ASW operations conducted from the carriers and available float planes from the Cruisers and battleships to at least get a grip that they are being watched.

Also what kind of reloading system do these U-Boats have to be able to sink 23 Merchants without any British Corvettes or Destroyer forcing them to dive deep, also Merchants tend to sail away from exploding ships, they also report them and it usually is hard to position subs under water quickly.
 
The British damage control parties seem to be out of luck with the HMS Ramillies torpedo bulge defences failing miserably.

Assuming (as is reasonable) that they did not receive inter-war updates, the torpedoes of WW2 have heavier warheads, even OTL. At any rate, three torpedoes would wreck the day of most battleships, let alone those designed to defend against smaller weapons.

Honestly, the loss of a battleship hurts, but the loss of one of those third-rate R class doesn't materially affect the war. Those three torpedoes would have been better spent against either cruisers (Less marauding cruisers to hunt down the hilfkreuzers), carriers, large merchants or (If present) troop carriers. Every sub skipper wants the big target though, so it isn't really a criticism.

Now how much radar did the British Convoy had since their were surfaced submarines briefly?

This early, the radar isn't horribly helpful. The range that it could pick up a u-boat would probably be under 3 miles. A surfaced submarine that gets that close isn't going to have a long life.

- Also the British should have at least known a sizable force of submarines were following them from the recon and ASW operations conducted from the carriers and available float planes from the Cruisers and battleships to at least get a grip that they are being watched.

Agree. How much they'll accomplish (Outside of forcing submersion) is another matter, especially this early in the war.

Also what kind of reloading system do these U-Boats have to be able to sink 23 Merchants without any British Corvettes or Destroyer forcing them to dive deep, also Merchants tend to sail away from exploding ships, they also report them and it usually is hard to position subs under water quickly.

Let's see. An OTL type VII had 5 tubes. If 15 submarine get into the convoy, then that's 75 torpedoes immediately available. If only 10, that's still 50. Honestly, with as large as the convoy is, any torpedo you fire has a good chance of hitting SOMETHING, and the panicked merchants also have a chance of ramming each other/warships.
 
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Also what kind of reloading system do these U-Boats have to be able to sink 23 Merchants without any British Corvettes or Destroyer forcing them to dive deep, also Merchants tend to sail away from exploding ships, they also report them and it usually is hard to position subs under water quickly.
This early in the war the submarines preferred to sneak into the convoy surfaced and attack with torpedoes and guns until forced to dive. They would then dive under the merchant ships. This is because:
(i) The escorts cannot easily attack them.
(ii) Noise from the merchant props etc. disrupt ASDIC somewhat.

Once dived the escorts would head to the next surfaced sub.

Also, keep in mind ANY depth charge attack in the MIDDLE of the convoy is bound to cause issues with the merchant men (Ships and crew!)
 
What are the British subs doing?
The same thing as OTL. They are scouts, trying to catch ships moving out from the north sea (and succesfull at this) and they will shoot something if they happen to be close (as they did with one of the supply ships), but they have a really poor chance of doing anything against a target in the mid-atlantic against somebody cruising at 19 knots. Going close to harbors is really dangerous because of mines and ITTL the germans have quite a few more escorts. Also, with their supply network and ships ITTL, they have not travelled back and forth so often as OTL.
If you look at the reverse situation, the 9 knots convoy had heavy losses, but only at 13 knots losses were much lower.
 
I enyoi reading this tl. Mhh what are the chances that less than 50 ships make it to a British Port? If that Convoy gets to many Losses will the Brits throw in the Towel?
As for your Question wolfpacks and surface Fleet working Together this early should fuck up British response.
But i'am by no means an expert.
Thank you, glad you like it. less than 50 ships would really require a total of the defense, and even if this happens, this time of year dispersal of the convoy would allow some to get through.
Would the British throw in the towel....? Quite early, but the situation would clearly be unsustainable. There will be serious repercussions on anglo-french rearmament, I even wonder if they would have to take the offensive to force a conclusion to the war.....? Any thought on this?
Regarding wolf-packs. This is really WW1 surface and subfleet coopoeration plans now carried out with more sea worthy subs and good radio communication
 

G-6

Banned
The only bad thing about timelines like this that the holocaust it's worse since. The Nazi either win or takes longer to defeat Germany
 
The RN battleships should stick together. They know there is more than one heavy out there, and to split the heavies would risk defeat in detail. The main force (Battleships, some destroyers) would likely be placed near the rear of the convoy. Destroyers would range ahead, and corvettes along the sides. Cruisers would probably stick with the heavy units. Here's a diagram of one RN convoy with a battleship.

AtlanticFormation.gif
This is what I really like about this forum. I will change this later in the update and also the direction of the attacks
 
Thoughts

The British damage control parties seem to be out of luck with the HMS Ramillies torpedo bulge defences failing miserably.

Qustions

Now how much radar did the British Convoy had since their were surfaced submarines briefly?

- Also the British should have at least known a sizable force of submarines were following them from the recon and ASW operations conducted from the carriers and available float planes from the Cruisers and battleships to at least get a grip that they are being watched.

Also what kind of reloading system do these U-Boats have to be able to sink 23 Merchants without any British Corvettes or Destroyer forcing them to dive deep, also Merchants tend to sail away from exploding ships, they also report them and it usually is hard to position subs under water quickly.

Regarding the sinkings, take a look at he early battles of OTL WW2. Eg sc7 and hx79. Heavy escorts in the latter case and still 5 U-boats going in to sink 12 ships in a night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_battles_of_World_War_II
This is 3 times the sub numbers, many, many more targets, and the escorts are busy chasing off the Germans in a potential surface engagement.
 
The only bad thing about timelines like this that the holocaust it's worse since. The Nazi either win or takes longer to defeat Germany
Its a work of fiction, so no real person will be any worse off. In the fictious setting, you are off course right, but considering that it could have gone worse in OTL makes the real history look less bad. As compared to if you consider OTL the worst outcome posible. Looking at it that way it is not so negative.
 
Chapter 49: Beating a chained foe to death
Chapter 49: Beating a chained foe to death

Although the British force attached to convoy HX7 on paper was formidable, it would soon turn out that their mission to protect a convoy of slow moving merchant ships made the proud royal navy ships into sitting ducks. Scouting had quickly turned into suicide missions as the visibility was awful and the British, unlike the Germans did not have reliable radar (cf. chapter 37). Had these tactical disadvantages been fully clear to Admiral Edward Syfret, overall commander aboard the Nelson, what came next would have been seen as inevitable. After establishing the approximate position of the British battleships and carriers at the end of the convoy by a trailing type XVII submarine (cf. chapter 39), the submarine initiated the battle with the pre-established signal. A trail of torpedoes fired into a large British warship, in this case the Rodney. As the torpedoes were fired at a relatively safe distance, only two torpedoes hit the HMS Rodney, and while the amidships strike hit straight at the torpedo defense system, this had not been designed for the 9 m long 60 cm torpedoes used by the German submarine (cf. chapter 28). It burst and released flames, fumes, water and fire into the belly of the ship. The aft hit destroyed the port turbines, again causing extensive flooding and a major list o port, initially threatening to capsize before counter flooding stabilized Rodney somewhat. The burning Rodney formed a nice illuminative background for what came next: 11 of the trailing German destroyers came out into a torpedo assault firing at the rear of the enormous convoy. Aiming was intended towards the Nelson and the two carriers although at a range of 7-8 miles, a lot of movement by the target was possible. However, when your are zig-zagging at 15 knots, 50 knots of torpedo speed will close the gap rather fast and there is not that much you can do to avoid being struck with close to 90 torpedoes in the water.

At his occasion, despite being pre-occupied by chasing the German submarine which crippled Rodney, the British did manage to bring their guns to bear on the Germans and firing from the Nelson, 5 cruisers (2 were in the front to protect against this kind of event) 8 destroyers did manage to lay 15 cm hits on 7 of the destroyers, sinking two and seriously crippling 2 more, but the worst was clearly to come. The German torpedoes made their mark on 1 destroyer, 1 of the cruisers, which both sank and Nelson was hit by a torpedo in the stern bringing her port machinery to a halt and Resolution took a hit amidships which brushed aside all defense systems leaving her to capsize. A further hit was struck on Ark Royals sister ship Warrior setting off fires in stored aviation fuels and 5 merchant ships were struck and sunk by misfired torpedoes. A major night-time melee now followed as 17 German submarines penetrated the front of the convoy and the trailing British destroyers went in pursuit of the retreating German destroyer force. This led to the sinking of the two crippled German destroyers, but also to the encounter between the British destroyers and the German cruisers and battleships. In this melee,a German light cruiser was struck by a British torpedo and sunk, but the British destroyers were almost annihilated, and events unfolded from here. The German XVII submarine had dived deep following the torpedoing of the Rodney, but knowing the tactical plan, he had now deduced that he was no longer being chased and he returned to periscope depth with reloaded torpedoes. In an unrivalled display of opportunism he approached the damaged and slow moving HMS Nelson before sending a spread of a further 4 torpedoes into her*. The torpedo hits set off secondary explosion at the 6 inch caliber magazines and she sank rapidly in an explosive fireworks display. When the captain, a soon to be infamous Günther Prien, radioed in that both the Nelrods were incapacitated, an knowing that the aftermost destroyers were sunk and those in the front engaed in ASW, the German admiral Lütjens decided that conditions were now favorable and moved in for the kill.

With the sun about to emerge behind the clouds, he encountered Ramillies in fighting spirit, but soon showered her in 16.5 inch shells from the three German battleships. Ramillies did land hits in return, but it was not the gunfight which proved the most costly to the Germans. A type T submarine had also been trailing the British convoy and it did land two torpedoes into the side of the Moltke. Moltke withdrew to lick her wounds as the Germans pursued to claim the Ramillies, the Rodney and Ark Royals sister ship Warrior losing another heavy cruiser in the foray.

Previously, the captain on the Ark Royal had been quick to react and in the face of the initial German torpedo spread he moved ahead into the convoy. Realizing he was now in command, he ordered the dispersal of the convoy and set his own escape route at 30 knots heading North-East with 3 cruisers ordered to his side. As daylight approached, the slaughter commenced in earnest, while the Royal Navy was making its escape.

*I would think that with 1939 ASW, tying a battleship to a 9 knot convoy would be suicide with 14 knot submerged submarines around. Obviously, the tactics of this convoy would not be repeated, but lessons can be expensive.
 
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I hope this is not too much, but if we add the 1939 ASW, the mission to defend the convoy, German radar and no working British surface radar in poor visibility, a few fast submersible submarines and 60 cm German torpedoes, this does not seem that wrong. Let me hear your feedback and I will adjust if needed.
 
A few things: Royal Sovereign was sunk in the last update. Ramillies should be up. Revenge was sunk in the Great war, and should be Royal Oak or Resolution.



Let's see.

We have 2 Queens left, 1 R class, Renown and two Admirals, plus the five KGV. The KGV class ITTL (I don't recall if you've covered it) I expect to be a three triple 15" guns, with what the Germans were up to. I also expect that at least a pair of Lions have been started, probably four, and have been accelerated. OTL, they were suspended due to a need for more sub hunters. ITTL, something to fight other heavies is necessary.
So, I expect the following dispositions:

The R class: Laid up, guns pulled to mount on some emergency Vanguard class. Say, two of them. (The R class guns, plus the spares that were used OTL). The R class are deathtraps, and should be pulled back.

The two Queens: Sent to the Med. Without the heavy updates of OTL, they shouldn't fight the Germans, but they can still bully Italians (If needed).

Renown and the two Admirals: Put into a single squadron, used for bullying cruisers, and other German ships where appropriate.

The KGVs: It's early, but at least three should be completed, with a fourth either nearing completion or on shakedown. The Admiralty should have seen to it with all the capital ship construction the Germans were doing.

Lions: They should have been started a year earlier, so we have two of them are about a year into construction. Given construction rates, they'll need at least another 6 months before they hit the water, and about another 18 months after that to be ready to fight. No more than about two months can be shaved off of that. There may be another pair about to be started. This will partially depend on availability of guns and mounts

Vanguards: Given the sound paddling that the RN has just taken, a Vanguard design will be rushed through and started. Modify the Lion design to take those spare turrets, and build. If given any sort of priority, expect about a 30 month construction time.

Carriers: I expect that the Implacables will be rushed, and expanded. 4 of them, and look for them to take about 2 years each. The Admiralty is going to be frantic for those larger air wings.

Given the entire situation, it wouldn't be out of the question for the British to ask for peace (a la the Peace of Amien) and gather their strength for another go in a year or so. Say, after Germany has made a move against the USSR...
 
A few things: Royal Sovereign was sunk in the last update. Ramillies should be up. Revenge was sunk in the Great war, and should be Royal Oak or Resolution.



Let's see.

We have 2 Queens left, 1 R class, Renown and two Admirals, plus the five KGV. The KGV class ITTL (I don't recall if you've covered it) I expect to be a three triple 15" guns, with what the Germans were up to. I also expect that at least a pair of Lions have been started, probably four, and have been accelerated. OTL, they were suspended due to a need for more sub hunters. ITTL, something to fight other heavies is necessary.
So, I expect the following dispositions:

The R class: Laid up, guns pulled to mount on some emergency Vanguard class. Say, two of them. (The R class guns, plus the spares that were used OTL). The R class are deathtraps, and should be pulled back.

The two Queens: Sent to the Med. Without the heavy updates of OTL, they shouldn't fight the Germans, but they can still bully Italians (If needed).

Renown and the two Admirals: Put into a single squadron, used for bullying cruisers, and other German ships where appropriate.

The KGVs: It's early, but at least three should be completed, with a fourth either nearing completion or on shakedown. The Admiralty should have seen to it with all the capital ship construction the Germans were doing.

Lions: They should have been started a year earlier, so we have two of them are about a year into construction. Given construction rates, they'll need at least another 6 months before they hit the water, and about another 18 months after that to be ready to fight. No more than about two months can be shaved off of that. There may be another pair about to be started. This will partially depend on availability of guns and mounts

Vanguards: Given the sound paddling that the RN has just taken, a Vanguard design will be rushed through and started. Modify the Lion design to take those spare turrets, and build. If given any sort of priority, expect about a 30 month construction time.

Carriers: I expect that the Implacables will be rushed, and expanded. 4 of them, and look for them to take about 2 years each. The Admiralty is going to be frantic for those larger air wings.

Given the entire situation, it wouldn't be out of the question for the British to ask for peace (a la the Peace of Amien) and gather their strength for another go in a year or so. Say, after Germany has made a move against the USSR...

Thanks, tried to change some of the obvious word misshaps.

All your suggestions are logical, but we need to look at he timing at which they could be carried out IOTL. ITTL Hitler tried not to obviously abandon his agreements before at the last moment. So, one obvious change, a German fleet carrier is built earlier and the Illustrious class would not be laid out that much apart, have higher priority and we should see all commissioned in 1940, a bit rushed perhaps.
ITTL the German built 3 battleships as compared to the twins and B&T in OTL. I would think it is only when they depart from 14 inch it really gets critical....? This happens in 1937, but intially only officially with a single ship after the americans activates the TTL escalator clause, so I would assume the first KGV's would have 14'' guns in this TL, but that the first Lions get laid down in early 1938, with the next two in 1939? If not for this reason, then because the Germans reject the AGN treaty in 1938. I agree the British would want the KGV's with 15'' guns, but is it not too late?

The spare 15'', definately a Vanguard, but laid down in 1938 after the Germans reject AGN, the second in late 1939 after the discovery that the R class is indeed death traps. This give the British 5 KGV's building or fitting out, 4 lions building, 2 Vanguards building and 4 Illustrious class fitting out. I know they have the slipways, can can they really keep the timelines with that many ships and less than half of their trade coming in?

Does this make sense? A peace offer might indeed be offered, but Hitler knows the Italians and the Spanish are coming in with the spring and will want something which prevents a round 2 with the British having the advantage. Let me hear your thoughts about demands in this TL.
 
Chapter 50: The aftermath of HX79
Chapter 50: The aftermath of HX79

The dissolution of the convoy HX79 resulted in the sinking of more than 500000 tons of merchant shipping, the capture of a further 500000 tons and only about a third of the convoy made it through. With an excess of 1 million tonnes captured, Germany now had the opportunity to pay of its allies in captured supplies and it could chose to make respectable merchant marine nations out of the Spain, Italy and Japan.

Arguably, during winter time were aerial reconnaissance is difficult, isolated ships might have fared better than HX79 and in in consequence of the disastrous losses, the British would starve and many industries in Britain and France would grind to a halt. There would be no further major convoys attempted before spring and those that did take off would maintain corvettes and sloops for ASW defenses and destroyers would be distant scouts to allow some of a convoy to disperse in case warships were encountered. The admiralty would later refer to first month of the conflict as the period of outdated tactics and the winter of 1939-40 as the first one of maturity. Losses would still be heavy and in the unsustainable range, but lack of reconnaissance meant that “only about 5-600000 tons would be sunk in January-March 1940. This was however not only due to winter and tactics, but also reflected that the German battle fleet had been sent back for refit and the first convoy following HX79 came through unmolested as also the submarines needed replenished supplies.

The maiming of the British battleships made it clear that speed, mobility, orientation via radar and air cover were essentials in modern naval battles. For the British it meant that the illustrious class needed completion with the utmost urgency and radar installations aboard ships got the highest priority. Similar for fighters were sea hurricanes were prioritized over the home defense as were practices with deck parks, despite the attrition this resulted in, and a much reduced British defensive capability over land. Also, with the shortages of everything, expanding a fleet air arm and the navy’s capabilities to the utmost meant starving the army. This was not a well-liked consequence as the Anglo-French now seriously contemplated taking the offensive in the spring to force an acceptable peace negotiation and prevent further starvation.

The Germans had received spectacular good fortune, but their fleet had also experienced attrition. Most pronounced on the Moltke which could limp home at the speed of 16 knots, and the Bremen converted liner which also took 2 torpedoes from a British submarine in the North Sea. Each of these ships would need 6 month of repairs*. Bismarck and Tirpitz had also received numerous shells and would need repairs to be fully operational again. Thus, Germans shuffled their cards and had 4 panzershiffe spearheaded battlegroups in the Atlantic over January-March 1940 with the Panzershiffe supplemented by the 3 25000 carrier conversions, 4 light cruisers, 8 destroyers and 8 supply ships, with the rest of the Kriegsmarine refitting and resting in their harbors.

*Keep in mind that all these conversions are planned conversions and have an inbuilt hull layer 5 meters inwards of the outer hull. Also, the German submarine fleet is designed to interact with the surface fleet.

Thus, for the German conversions the area in between the outer hull and inner hull used to be a hall-way and spacious cabins but now is a genuine torpedo defense system, which based on the depth should have a good chance of warding off a 51 cm torpedo.
With regards to the German torpedoes, these are designed to kill the admiral class with a 4-5 m deep system (only a little deeper on the Nelrods) and have made 61 cm torpedoes which a larger warhead. Thus, the British will in general damage the German heavy ships with torpedoes (they could sink the cruisers), the Germans will tend to sink the British ships.

PS. a happy new year to all the readers of TTL
 
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The spare 15'', definately a Vanguard, but laid down in 1938 after the Germans reject AGN, the second in late 1939 after the discovery that the R class is indeed death traps.

Fair enough.

Does this make sense? A peace offer might indeed be offered, but Hitler knows the Italians and the Spanish are coming in with the spring and will want something which prevents a round 2 with the British having the advantage.

OTL at least, Hitler had no particular desire to fight the UK. Offer a boots-on-the-ground peace, and go from there. Per preventing round two with the UK...I do agree, but it will be very difficult to put the UK in that position, not that Hitler needs to be logical.

This happens in 1937, but intially only officially with a single ship after the americans activates the TTL escalator clause, so I would assume the first KGV's would have 14'' guns in this TL, but that the first Lions get laid down in early 1938, with the next two in 1939? If not for this reason, then because the Germans reject the AGN treaty in 1938. I agree the British would want the KGV's with 15'' guns, but is it not too late?

OTL, the KGVs were started in 1937. There were other designs available. Assuming the British knew before 1937 that the Germans were planning bigger guns (Not unreasonable; British intelligence was excellent), I could definitely see a 3x3 15" design picked. Even if they simply start quietly building the 15" rather than the 14" guns.

This give the British 5 KGV's building or fitting out, 4 lions building, 2 Vanguards building and 4 Illustrious class fitting out. I know they have the slipways, can can they really keep the timelines with that many ships and less than half of their trade coming in?

Not completely. Remember that things are stockpiled before construction begins, in order to keep the progress smooth. Regardless, it will be a problem, so I would see the less completed ships being delayed, and all materials being shunted into what can be completed quickly.
 
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