The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine

I agree submarines are a way attritting the german fleets.However, so it was OTL and it only succeeded a few times. Badically, a lot of luck is required to be in position when you sail 7 knots and your foes at least 19 knots.
For example: The 13 knots convoys iotl had quite low losses
Going close to the harbors will be quite dangerous, because of minefields and patrolling German ships.
I’ll try to write about it in the next update
Do keep in mind that in OTL the Germans had the advantage with submarines - A lot of subs and a lot of targets, whereas the Allies had the disadvantage - A lot of subs and NOT a lot of targets. Subs were mainly used for esponage in the Atlantic. Not many engaged German ships.

In this TL, that will be reversed right now. The UK has to rely on her subs to attack the Germans as her surface fleet is at a significant disadvantage. Also there are more German ships at sea than was ever the case OTL, meaning a lot more targets for UK subs.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Do keep in mind that in OTL the Germans had the advantage with submarines - A lot of subs and a lot of targets, whereas the Allies had the disadvantage - A lot of subs and NOT a lot of targets. Subs were mainly used for esponage in the Atlantic. Not many engaged German ships.

In this TL, that will be reversed right now. The UK has to rely on her subs to attack the Germans as her surface fleet is at a significant disadvantage. Also there are more German ships at sea than was ever the case OTL, meaning a lot more targets for UK subs.
This could also change any Pacific war as if the British show the importance of subs against enemy warships then the US may 1) make sure their torpedoes do actually work 2) focus on enemy warships before going against japanese convoys
 
Chapter 46: Diplomacy and risk-taking under a new paradigm.
Chapter 46: Diplomacy and risk-taking under a new paradigm.

For centuries Britain had possessed the mightiest navy of the world, but now it was unable to project its power, and unable to keep the sea lanes open. Rationing became fierce and barely sufficient for long term sustenance. The slow strangling of the Anglo-French supply lines was only one of the problems, loss of prestige was another very real problem, and it would become manifest at the Berlin conference in mid-November. Here Benito Mussolini, Miklos Horthy, and Francisco Franco met to forge a trade group and secret alliance. In this alliance, Hungary was promised Northern Transylvania. Italy in turn was promised Provence, Savoy until the Rhône, Corsica, Malta, Algeria, Egypt, Palestine and Lebanon in the middle-east. Franco’s Spain would take over an interned merchant fleet of 500000 tons including a substantial quantity of weaponry and would following a later DoW be allowed to take possession of Gibraltar, Marocco and Portugal. Under the terms, the three countries were to mobilize gradually* and be ready for DoW’s in the spring, and they should continue to support the warfare until the surrender in Britain and the fall of communism in Soviet Russia. In the interim, Spain would intensify its support for the Germans, including allowing resupply of German ships and scouting for the position of merchant ships. In effect, the Mediterranean would now be almost closed off as passing through the Mediterranean would entail dreadful losses for any ships west of Gibraltar.

Meanwhile, with the status quo falling apart, the British were solely committed to getting supplies through. Three convoys were attempted in November with 45, 47 and 49 ships escorted by both cruisers and destroyers, although none went undetected and each were engaged in some way or the other. One by Bismarck and its battlegroup was virtually annihilated as the German light unit could chase down the merchantmen, while another “only” suffered two air strikes and submarine attacks and the last only suffered submarine attacks. Despite the somewhat good fortune, the Germans could intelligence and packs of U-boats were able to convoy on those convoys that did not suffer attacks from German heavy units and more than half of the merchant ships were lost.

Then, in the last days of November, the cause of the good fortune was discovered. Reconnaissance planes had observed the Moltke and Tirpitz in Wilhelmshaven and a cruiser had spotted a battlegroup turning east through the Faroese gap. The second British Ark Royal class ship departed Scapa Flow, accompanied by the Nelrods with the carrier Furious each laden with 3 squadrons a Sea Hurricanes, a squadron of Swordfish and a squadron of Fulmars. The eldest planes parked on the deck. The gamble to reopen the sea-lanes had begun.



*Major butterflies into not only the Spanish entry, but also how the Italians first battles will be performed. Lots of supplies and logistics set-up in Libya and Abyssinia.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Spain is kind of pushing things. They were in no position whatsoever to fight after the civil war; they would have had to have been supplied entirely by Germany, and you haven't really alleviated the core problem of Germany just not having enough natural resources or industrial capacity.
 
Spain is kind of pushing things. They were in no position whatsoever to fight after the civil war; they would have had to have been supplied entirely by Germany, and you haven't really alleviated the core problem of Germany just not having enough natural resources or industrial capacity.

Agreed. I don't feel that they can even inconvenience Gibraltar at this time, and if the German fleet has to retreat for a bit, then the Canaries are wide open....
 
Agreed. I don't feel that they can even inconvenience Gibraltar at this time, and if the German fleet has to retreat for a bit, then the Canaries are wide open....
And even if Spain does get Gibralta, and Italy Malta et al, just you wait until the Empire's land forces come into play in full. India, Australia, New Zealand..... Ok, not many troops yet but when the full force of the empire is at play, Germany is well and truly f*cked. Winning at sea is one thing, but on land is another and all that steel into warships means less guns, tanks, aircraft.....

p.s. And all those German ships are in the Atlantic, not Indian and Pacific Oceans to stop Aus / Nz / India etc deploying.....
 

FBKampfer

Banned
And even if Spain does get Gibralta, and Italy Malta et al, just you wait until the Empire's land forces come into play in full. India, Australia, New Zealand..... Ok, not many troops yet but when the full force of the empire is at play, Germany is well and truly f*cked. Winning at sea is one thing, but on land is another and all that steel into warships means less guns, tanks, aircraft.....

p.s. And all those German ships are in the Atlantic, not Indian and Pacific Oceans to stop Aus / Nz / India etc deploying.....

The Empire doesn't matter for a hill of beans. The UK could never have defeated Germany on her own.
 
The Empire doesn't matter for a hill of beans. The UK could never have defeated Germany on her own.

maybe but Britain wasn't alone in 1939 she had the empire at here back, and Britain isn't alone in TTL the Empire is still at here back; Germany is having success right now but her navy is limited and there is NO new Construction happening, where the British are building new ships. Germany still has always had to deal with being a Continental Power which comes at the expense of the Navy regardless of the era. Look at the German Navy today.
 
The Empire doesn't matter for a hill of beans. The UK could never have defeated Germany on her own.
UK, no.
UK + Canada + India + Australia + India + The rest of the crown colonies. I said Empire, NOT UK alone.

Darn, looking at the UK at the moment I have serious doubts about their ability to organize a piss-up in a brewery some days, but we are talking 80 years ago!
 
With Spain going the war means that Germany can set up many airbases but they need to fly over the med with the risk of interception from the French Airforce and maybe the RAF and the flight alone could loose some airframes the landings may end with some operational loses and this is not including the fact they need to build/improve airfields first which will take time and get the logistical supplys sorted in the civil-war torn country.

What is the situation of the supply of coal and oil in the nation since currently getting German coal right now is geographically hard.

I don't believe UK can fully blockade it but placing AMc's in the paths of Spanish merchant ship routes will cause a headache same with the Italians with the Allies probably penetrating their naval codes.

Another good question is where Germany is getting it oil supply, right as of now they are most likely getting most of it right now from the USSR but with the control of the Atlantic Germany can send oil tankers out to the Atlantic to buy oil from South America but FDR can interfere with that.

Speaking of FDR how is land lease doing right now and are there American battleships escorting allied merchants half way up the Atlantic yet?
 
++Snip++

Speaking of FDR how is land lease doing right now and are there American battleships escorting allied merchants half way up the Atlantic yet?
Well if they are and the Germans tangle with them, go straight to a USA / Germany war, and goodbye German Navy as a direct result. Ok, the USN may not be so comparable right now, but they 100% can out-produce Germany.
 
Well if they are and the Germans tangle with them, go straight to a USA / Germany war, and goodbye German Navy as a direct result. Ok, the USN may not be so comparable right now, but they 100% can out-produce Germany.
Still the American public opinion for pro war will not be as strong as it was when Perl Harbour happened especially if the Germans have definitive proof that they did not fire first on the American ships ie. Video evidence and show it to the remaining Neutral power's but FDR can censor everything, the new American 'big boi' ships start commissioning by 1943.

Everyone knows how poorly the US Navy responded at the beginning of Operation Drumbeat and what is worse is Germany can deploy surface ships for the operation this action could cause the tranfer of Pacific forces to the Atlantic which in term will make Japan bolder and probably give them control of the Pacific for a extra few years with will get worse if their already modernized with German technology.

Litteraly to cut this sort the Americans will get their ass handed to them for 2 years or less depending on entry unless the UK score a major victory or US forces manage to get a dive bomber squadron lost only to find the enemy fleet carriers accidentally which coincidently have broken radars and critically damaging them avoiding the CAP in the process or get lucky British Submarines or go for the lame B-17 Port raids escorted by rushed P-51 fighters.
 
Chapter 47: Setting the pieces
Chapter 47: Setting the pieces

Realizing that the cream of the RN had departed for Canada, presumably to escort a megaconvoy and the three R class battleships home, Hitler and the Kriegsmarine faced a monumental decision. Celebrate the achieved victory which meant massive congestion and in no way could keep Britain supplied or seek a decisive battle with the Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine, knowing the new KGV class battleships and illustrious class carriers would begin to tip the scales chose the latter course.

Germany had its Moltke and Tirpitz carriers resupplied with new He-113CT’s, equipped with DB601N engines and C3 fuel, while aircraft resupplies for Bismarck’s battle group were flown in via Italy and Spain. When the ships departed on the 10th of December, they set forth to join Bismarck forming a combined fleet of 2 fleet carriers, the 4 converted aircraft carriers, 3 battleships, 4 heavy cruisers, 8 light cruisers, 12 destroyers and 6 resupply ships. Two of the Panzerschiffe battle groups however had to return to be refitted and resupplied and the last stayed in the South Atlantic to keep impacting convoys heading north.

Further herculean efforts were made to return Germans U-boats for Atlantic duty. The U-boats formed a critical part of the plan, as the Germans were far less confident than you might believe. Thinking a clear advantage in naval aviation was achieved, but fearing the Nelrod’s and the damage they might cause, the fleet had the authority to engage only when weather conditions were favorable or tactival opportunities presented themselves to defeat the enemy through smaller engagements.

As it was now December 1939 poor weather conditions could still save the British fleet.
 
I will try to respond to all the other comments later. Overall, the Germans are indeed in a hurry to win, and they apear more honorable than last time. Eg. taking prizes and sending them to Spain....
 
Honestly, even if the convoy makes it through, this is acceptable. What should be done is that the convoy should be discreetly shadowed, and attacked by aircraft when in port. Sure, some supplies get through, but the harbor could be closed down until serious work is done on clearing...and if an ammunition ship or two settles without exploding (Like SS Richard Montgomery) then cleanup becomes incredibly hazardous.
 
Honestly, even if the convoy makes it through, this is acceptable. What should be done is that the convoy should be discreetly shadowed, and attacked by aircraft when in port. Sure, some supplies get through, but the harbor could be closed down until serious work is done on clearing...and if an ammunition ship or two settles without exploding (Like SS Richard Montgomery) then cleanup becomes incredibly hazardous.
I agree, but actually the weather should decide what happens. I Can find the British, but not mid-Atlantic reports. Anyone knows of a source for this? Covering mid-december 1939?
 
Chapter 48: The battle begins
Chapter 48: The battle begins

The convoy HX7 HX7 departed Halifax with more than 300 merchant ships and escorted by Revenge, Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, the Nelrods, 2 carriers, 8 cruisers, 22 destroyers and 15 corvettes and their departure was picked up by a scouting German submarine. By then Moltke had already departed and the Tirpitz would follow soon after. Each departure detected by British submarines patrolling the North Sea, one of these successfully torpedoing a German fast supply ship before being hunted down and sunk. The German supply ship were heavily damaged, but it was designed for this event and survived two torpedo hits thanks to its 5 m deep torpedo defense system. German ships now raced to the mid-Atlantic were Bismarck, Tirpitz and Moltke formed a combined fleet of 2 fleet carriers, the 4 converted aircraft carriers, 3 battleships, 4 heavy cruisers, 8 light cruisers, 12 destroyers and 5 resupply ships. A further 30 German submarines were aligned to shadow the convoy and with well functioning codes, the Germans planned to harass the convoy and its escorts, irrespectively of the weather which initially was quite poor. The defense of the convoy was hampered by the size, approximately 8 miles wide and 8 miles long, the full might of the defense could not be everywhere.

The battle commenced on the night of the 14th of December with 4 German submarines firing star shells from their deck 88 mm’s positioned at the North-West, North-East, South-West and South-East of the convoy and radioing in the approximate position of the British battleships and carriers before submerging. With the identification of the British battlegroups at the rear of the convoy, The Germans initiated an attack on the south-eastern part of the convoy followed by submarine groups attacking from the North-west, south-west and south. The surface engagement was brief resulting in the sinking of a German destroyer for two British destroyers and 5 corvettes, but the main purpose of the attack had been to distract the defenders while submarines penetrated the convoy. In this regard the attack was a raging success and submarines sank a British cruiser and put three torpedoes into the HMS Royal Sovereign which sank rapidly at a great loss of lives. A further 23 merchant ships were sunk on that evening which was an utter chaotic disaster for the defenders. In return 5 submarines were claimed to be sunk, the reality was 2 and one damaged that would have to limp back to Germany.

The distance remaining to Britain was 1800 miles which the convoy was covering at 9 knots of speed.
 
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I tried to look into how the British handled convoy escorts IOTL and they preferred to keep the heavies apart and together. COnsequently, a convoy this large should be a major predicament and anti-submarine measures are not at all developed yet.
Does this level of difficulty seem realistic? Now the German submarines will spend the day sailing back in front of the convoys path, and unlike OTL, the royal navy ships are afraid of straying to far from the convoy as they are either outgunned our outrun (eg. going ahead with the nelrods would leave the convoy defenseless, going ahead with something else would get that force shot to pieces).
 
I enyoi reading this tl. Mhh what are the chances that less than 50 ships make it to a British Port? If that Convoy gets to many Losses will the Brits throw in the Towel?
As for your Question wolfpacks and surface Fleet working Together this early should fuck up British response.
But i'am by no means an expert.
 
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