The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine

Chapter 44: The battle of the South Iceland Bassin part 2.
Chapter 44: The battle of the South Iceland Bassin part 2.

As the German battlegroup started firing at 35 km’s of range, they closed the range at about 15 knots sailing at 22 knots while offering full broadsides. At this extreme range, the German could soon straddle the British ships thanks to spotting air craft although dispersal at such ranges meant the hit probability were still low. Contrary to British doctrine, the Germans maintained a high rate of fire of 2 shots per minute meaning that up to 3 shells could be in the air from each gun at any given time. Practice had revealed that this was as accurate as waiting for splashes as the splash used for each aim would at 1½-2 minutes away anyway. Using such tactics, the Germans closed to within extreme firing range of the British 15’’ Mark I in 10 minutes and had delivered 105 shots (12 barrels on 2 German battleships) scoring a single hit on Anson. This hit penetrated deep into the ship amidships destroying the turbines for the central propellers and causing significant flooding. However, over the next 10 minutes the German shells grew frightfully accurate and three more hits were made. Again, two on the Anson which penetrated deep into the forecastle and the bridge respectively. The hit on the forecastle again caused significant flooding while that in the bridge crippled the command, fire controls and damage controls. The hit on the Hood took out the A turret, but fortunately did not set off secondary explosions. In this period the British managed 155 shots in return, but at this range and without spotting aircraft, the accuracy was simply not up for it and only one hit was made on the Bismarck. Striking at 26 km’s it buried itself in the funnel and superstructure before exploding at the level at the armored deck, causing moderate damage except escape smoke into the fire control room for the amidships AA guns. During the next 10 minutes the German forces maintained their distance and landed a further 5 hits on the British heavy units. 2 on the slowing down Anson, one setting off a magazine leading to a powerful explosion and breaking the ship in two halfs, and two more on the Hood, these penetrating cleanly through above the belt and through the belt amidships.The latter damaging boiler rooms and causing flooding to a sufficient degree that the hit above the belt became below the waterline resulting in further flooding. Hood was now clearly sinking and the German battleship Moltke now focused its fire on Repulse causing a single hit which penetrated cleanly though and caused minimal damage. The British managed to land hit in return with one shell shattering on the belt of the Bismarck and one going into and exploding in the forecastle of the Tirpitz, but above the waterline. A third shell struck turret Bruno but shattered on the heavy front plate armor.

Repulse now attempted to extradite itself form the battle and send in the destroyers Jersey, Jaguar, Kingston, while it attempted to escape with Edinburgh. The damaged and slowed cruiser Edinburgh and the destroyer Kandahar was left behind while the destroyer Jarvis had already sunk.

The attacking British Destroyers were met by two heavy German cruisers, the Hipper and Prinz Eugen and 5 German destroyers each of them racing ahead and trying to prevent the attack from saving the Repulse. Closing at more than 60 knots it took a little more than 10 minutes the gap and enforce evasive maneuvers by the German ships. By then, Repulse had been shot and hit a further three times from the Stern chase, each hit penetrating deeply below deck with the last one setting off a magazine explosion. In the end, the British task force had been completely destroyed, the only consolation had been the dispatch of an accurate description of the disaster.
 

CalBear

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You do give quite a few warnings to very direct and similar personal attacks.
Anyways, sorry that it provides a nuisance. Not what I desire, but it would be straight forward according to forum rules to enforce a break.
I notice that, in your recap of my numerous warning issued in this thread you somehow managed to omit the one I issued to to you.

You couldn't just let thing settle down? AFTER I flat out stated it would be a BAD THING if more trouble was stirred up. The idea was to get the thread back on track sans drama.

Guess that was too easy a way to go.

Okay. I don't understand the decision, but okay.

As you wish. I'll be straight forward.

Kicked for a week.
 
Hm. A bit one sided.

Note that I imagine ITTL that all of the Admirals would receive Warspite-style rebuilds, as well as the Repulses. Most likely at the expense of the surviving Queens. Consequently, I would say they are unlikely to take a magazine hit.

Per return fire, Repulse OTL was an elite gunnery ship, and I would expect her to beat her target like a drum.

Now, if you want one of them to go up in a magazine explosion, then out of control fires could do it.

One of the better ways I saw Hood destroyed in a wargame was that several shorts were ruled to have opened her up to severe flooding, and damage control failed, so she capsized. From the perspective of other ships, she took no hits, rolled over and sank.
 
Hm. A bit one sided.

Note that I imagine ITTL that all of the Admirals would receive Warspite-style rebuilds, as well as the Repulses. Most likely at the expense of the surviving Queens. Consequently, I would say they are unlikely to take a magazine hit.

Per return fire, Repulse OTL was an elite gunnery ship, and I would expect her to beat her target like a drum.

Now, if you want one of them to go up in a magazine explosion, then out of control fires could do it.

One of the better ways I saw Hood destroyed in a wargame was that several shorts were ruled to have opened her up to severe flooding, and damage control failed, so she capsized. From the perspective of other ships, she took no hits, rolled over and sank.

Thanks for the feed-back. Please cf. chapter 34 for the German designs ITTL. The German guns are designed with a 55 caliber 420 mm gun. Not as heavy as the US 16'' inch, it is a solid semi-heavy high-velocity compromise which could do the job at these ranges. In fact, the upgrade they got was for a light 15'' shell and on deck armor only.

It didnt particularly want a magazine explosion, but penetrating hits at a range where they would point a bit downwards.. Its bound to happen once in awhile and in this engagement there are quite some hits.

Now Repulse are shooting at extreme ranges for unassisted gunnary. No radar, no spotting aircraft (as the Germans have), and when it tries to retreat, it only have two barrels pointing rearwards. Before she turns there are three hits from the Repulse and the sinking Hood. Good chance that they are from Repulse, so not at all a bad account of it self. Only problem is that they did not pierce the vitals.


"One of the better ways I saw Hood destroyed in a wargame was that several shorts were ruled to have opened her up to severe flooding, and damage control failed, so she capsized. From the perspective of other ships, she took no hits, rolled over and sank!"

That is not so far from what happened to Hood is it?
 
Chapter 45: The Age of Naval Aviation - a lesson learned twice
Chapter 45: The age of naval aviation – a lesson learned twice

The destruction of half the British battlecruiser force at the South Iceland Bassin would hit the British like a sledgehammer, and abruptly destroy pre-war strategy. It was immediately decided to keep the loss secret which was aided by an absence of German declarations of the defeat (see below). The clear conclusion was that carriers could dominate capital ships, that Britain were behind and needed more competitive aircraft, and that the new German battleships had remarkably efficient artillery and protection. Earlier intelligence reports which stated a likely size of the German ships at 45000+ tons as more likely and it was now clear that Britain was also behind qualitatively with regards to heavy ships. The British could remedy the first deficiency in competitive aircraft already from the spring of 1940 and it was decided not to risk the remaining assets without air cover before this improvement had been implemented. Also, it was decided to implement a deck park to increase the strike force on the British carriers. Clearly, while on patrols this meant a significant wear and loss for the aircraft (and the admiralty was shocked that the German had swallowed this expense), but in the immediate future that could with some justification be the fate of aircraft to be replaced anyway (eg. the swordfish on the deck, precious new sea hurricanes in the hangar.

At the more tactical level, the Southern task force was recalled and a debate would now ensue on what to do with the 3 Battleships and the mega-size convoy under assembly in Halifax.

As indeed, the Entente was in a series of ill-fated events and the Germans intercepted and decoded radio traffic indicating the recalling of the Southern British task force. Consequently, the two northern Germans taskforces centered on Bismarck and Tirpitz respectively would spread out to tighten interception of British shipping and be ready for the convoy out of Halifax, while the Southern task force would sail for the South Atlantic to intercept the French task force centered on Dunkirk and Strassburg. When the French was informed two days later, the French was too far south and the German task force was positioned to cut-off the return of the French task force.

The first hints of a mutual localization of the forces was when spotting aircraft from Strassburg located some ships in the distance and were chased of and sunk by He-112 aircraft from the small German carrier escorting the Admiral Scheer, panzershiffe. At this time, the Frenc ships were 500 km west-south-west of Dakar with the German ships 100 km to the south. The encounter also signaled the approximate position to the battleship task force centered on the Moltke 500 km to the north which would rapidly close the gap at a speed of 28-29 knots.

The next event was the air strike from the carrier escorting the Admiral Scheer were 20 He-112B’s, 18 Fi-167’s and 10 JU-87C’s struk at the French ships. With the He-112B’s strafing the ships the French anti-aircraft defenses would prove inadequate but the excellent torpedo protection (7.5 m’s deep) and deck armor would demonstrate that the French ships were tough indeed. Strassburg was hit by two bomb, one of them penetrating forward of the citadel and causing flooding, but no other damage and one penetrating near the aft quad 130 mm DP gun turrets, which disabled it, but cost no other damage. A torpedo strike amidships likewise cost minor flooding, but not any crippling damage except for a reduction of speed to 28 knots. Dunkerque was not as fortunate as two torpedo strike hit 20m’s and 45 ms’ from the stern respectively. One of these hits disabling the port propeller, and the combined damage causing significant flooding and reduction of speed to 23 knots.

This would be the only daytime action while the French fleet attempted to flee towards Dakar, but the radio traffic would reveal extensive German coordination of position. These events resulted in a light cruiser contact from the Admiral Scheer task force in the early hours of dusk which would radio in the other German ships. The French did not have any radar and were blissfully unaware as the German battleship moved to within 13-14 km’s range and fired star shells as well as ranging shots of their 420 mm guns. This events also signaled the firing from admiral Scheer which was 20 km’s to the south-west. At these ranges, againsta disoriented enemy and without escorts, it was a very unfair fight. Both of the German capital ship guns could defeat the 8 inch armor of the French ships while the French 12 inch guns could not defeat the German armor on the Moltke which the French were concentrating on.

Furthermore, the Germans were firing from a heavy cruiser and two light cruisers which were showering the French in star shells and 206 and 150 mm shells. Firing approximately 12-13 shell per minute it took the Moltke 3 minutess to obtain its first penetrating hit on the Strassburg while it took 5 minutes for Admiral Scheer, a hit that failed to penetrate the deck on Dunkirk, but did start a fire in the aircraft hangar.

Over the next 15 mins the French ships absorbed 8 420 mm shells, 5 283 mm shells, 7 206 mm shells and 43 150 mm shells. Before they in this way were reduced to floating wrecks and sunk by torpedoes, 3 large caliber hits were scored on the Moltke, one buried itself in the forecastle causing flooding which could later be mended, one hit, but failed to penetrate turret Anton (it was put out of action by the concussion, but back in 10 mins) and the last one started a fire when it penetrated into the amidships superstructure and ignited the fuel lines for the liason ships on the deck above. These were also pulverized in the explosion and it would take a full 30 mins to bring the fires under control with the unrepairable loss of the amidships DP artillery high angle fire control.

Following these events, the Kriegsmarine did announce their major victories to a jubilant population, and the blockade on south and mid-north Atlantic shipping would remain tight. The Moltke would return for brief repairs on a 10 day cruise while its associated carrier and cruisers would form an independent task force with Admiral Scheer, while the small carrier would escort the Moltke back, eventually breaking through the Iceland-Faroese Gap.

When the status were made after the end of October, the British and French had lost the perception of Naval dominance, 5 fast capital ships, one aircraft carrier and a further 1.2 million ton of shipping with 300000 tons captured. 3 battleships were stuck in Halifax and famines were now destined to strike the British homelands. At such desperate times a desperate gamble presented itself almost as an inevitability. The departure of a massive 215 ship convoy of a little more than a million tons of shipment and escorted by 3 battleships. The problem was, everyone knew that gamble would be made.
 
OK, the last update was very one-sided, but it could not go otherwise.

During the "kick-week" I did have some time to write two new short chapters, but I'd just like to pause to let you appreciate the new pre-conditions and offer advice.

First, about the last update:
Is it realistic with this poor anglo-french coordination? It smells right that the British would be shocked and not about to blurt it out.

For the next updates:
What would one think the British would do for the next updates. They have send 3 battleships to Halifax, but now realize they are rather defenseless and their existing naval air assets needs upgrading or may be thrown away?

Meanwhile, way to little traffic is reaching Britain and they will actually be starving in the winter.
 
The RN should be scraping up every flat top they got and readying to create a battle group around the Nelson Rodney and what Admirals they have left to escort that convoy across the Atlantic. With as many sea hurricanes as they can get maybe even get the french to haul the Bearn out I have no clue what her air group would be otl she was a ferry but TTL things are different.

Other option is to set a trap for the Molke and the little carrier once search planes detect them no way they get missed by a fully alert royal navy. The Ark Royal is gone but I believe she has a sister in ttl and Eagle and all three glorious class ships are there. Once again using the Nel Rods and the Admirals. Gun wise the Nel Rods are the biggest baddest thing the RN had
 
OK, the last update was very one-sided, but it could not go otherwise.

I agree with this. The French ships would be fantastic if they are chasing something, but if they feel they need to flee...they are in a bad way. I recall that the Dunkerques had horrible dispersion issues anyhow, and that will certainly hurt their ability to hit back.


Is it realistic with this poor anglo-french coordination? It smells right that the British would be shocked and not about to blurt it out.

In fact, this is very typical. The British did their best to hide major losses when possible. That they wouldn't tell the French doesn't surprise me, since the French military leaked intelligence like a sieve. I would expect that the British will not admit it, even to allies until they know what happened and have a remedy.

What would one think the British would do for the next updates. They have send 3 battleships to Halifax, but now realize they are rather defenseless and their existing naval air assets needs upgrading or may be thrown away?

The RN knows they were badly outranged, and that will play in.

The R's are useless deathtraps. They'll be shunted off to the Med probably. Since OTL they received no updates, it's reasonable to assume they didn't ITTL as well. So, low elevation, obsolete fire control. They'll be slaughtered without being able to reply if they are sent against the German fleet. Against the Italians they might be able to accomplish something.

The remaining Queens probably saw minimal updates. With the 4 Admirals and the two Renowns, THOSE are the ships that receive major updates. The Queens get updates, but not to OTL extent. Improved elevation, better fire control, better AA. Still, sending them up against the Germans is tantamount to shooting the crew yourself. These you hold as a reserve to mop up the enemy once they are damaged.

The RN is in a spot. The numerous T class submarines need to be blockading German ports. With a bit of luck, they'll put a torpedo into something important, and with a bit more, they'll sink it.

The RN carriers are needed. It's early, but expect a Sea Hurricane to be available almost immediately. This will be at the expense of aircraft capacity, since there aren't folding wings. Seafires will also be rushed, but in the interim, look for the RN to beg, borrow, or steal some F4Fs from the US. (Expect these to be accelerated ITTL). They have folding wings, and they are very sturdy, so they'll be a nasty opponent for the HE112. Initially, any carrier on escort duty is probably going to have almost 100% fight loadout to keep enemy aircraft off the fleet, and off the spotters. This is especially true while using Sea Hurricanes, due to the space penalty.

So, the escort of the important fleet will be several battleships, more than one carrier with a lot of fighters, and a lot of destroyers. They may try a suicide attack with the destroyers, since the loss of several destroyers is worth it if you sink an enemy Battleship and/or the convoy gets through.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
With the F4F's, they are a close match for the (OTL) 112's, as well as having outstanding high speed handling as well as very high diving speed and decent energy retention, coupled with the .50 M2, with outstanding ballistics and good burst mass for 1940 standards.

F4F's will be a nasty surprise indeed. Especially if the 112's retain their heavy control forces at 400+ IAS.
 
With the F4F's, they are a close match for the (OTL) 112's, as well as having outstanding high speed handling as well as very high diving speed and decent energy retention, coupled with the .50 M2, with outstanding ballistics and good burst mass for 1940 standards.

F4F's will be a nasty surprise indeed. Especially if the 112's retain their heavy control forces at 400+ IAS.

It always surprised me the britain never made a decent naval fighter and had to rely on us designs
 
Okay so the British navy has been defeated. The United States fleet will be ready I am betting on it
The rematch won't be so easy for the Germans.

The UK did have a submarine fleet in WWII, and in 1939 it was larger than the German one. Given what has happened, see a pickup of UK submarine activity. When the surface fleet sorties again it will be in force, and they will be looking to wipe the sea of the German surface ships.
 
I agree with this. The French ships would be fantastic if they are chasing something, but if they feel they need to flee...they are in a bad way. I recall that the Dunkerques had horrible dispersion issues anyhow, and that will certainly hurt their ability to hit back.

In fact, this is very typical. The British did their best to hide major losses when possible. That they wouldn't tell the French doesn't surprise me, since the French military leaked intelligence like a sieve. I would expect that the British will not admit it, even to allies until they know what happened and have a remedy.

The RN knows they were badly outranged, and that will play in.

The R's are useless deathtraps. They'll be shunted off to the Med probably. Since OTL they received no updates, it's reasonable to assume they didn't ITTL as well. So, low elevation, obsolete fire control. They'll be slaughtered without being able to reply if they are sent against the German fleet. Against the Italians they might be able to accomplish something.

The remaining Queens probably saw minimal updates. With the 4 Admirals and the two Renowns, THOSE are the ships that receive major updates. The Queens get updates, but not to OTL extent. Improved elevation, better fire control, better AA. Still, sending them up against the Germans is tantamount to shooting the crew yourself. These you hold as a reserve to mop up the enemy once they are damaged.

The RN is in a spot. The numerous T class submarines need to be blockading German ports. With a bit of luck, they'll put a torpedo into something important, and with a bit more, they'll sink it.

The RN carriers are needed. It's early, but expect a Sea Hurricane to be available almost immediately. This will be at the expense of aircraft capacity, since there aren't folding wings. Seafires will also be rushed, but in the interim, look for the RN to beg, borrow, or steal some F4Fs from the US. (Expect these to be accelerated ITTL). They have folding wings, and they are very sturdy, so they'll be a nasty opponent for the HE112. Initially, any carrier on escort duty is probably going to have almost 100% fight loadout to keep enemy aircraft off the fleet, and off the spotters. This is especially true while using Sea Hurricanes, due to the space penalty.

So, the escort of the important fleet will be several battleships, more than one carrier with a lot of fighters, and a lot of destroyers. They may try a suicide attack with the destroyers, since the loss of several destroyers is worth it if you sink an enemy Battleship and/or the convoy gets through.

I am glad the lack of allied coordination is seen as plausible, collectively, it is a massive defeat and it should not be contrived given the premis of TTL

Regarding updates. Yes the Admirals received updates to handle 14-15'' shells at longer distances. 16.5'' at 25 km was not anticipated. Repulse and Renown received upgrades to increase their range, FC, AA etc. , but they were not upgraded to resist 11-16.5'' shells.

QE's upgraded for range, FC and boiler overhaul, but not more.
R's wont be upgraded. Yes, they are death traps.

Sea Hurricanes... When would they be ready. A priority as soon as it is discovered that the Germans are flying He-112's from their carriers in mid 1939, but it took almost two years in OTL. My expectations would be that ITTL they are doing trials with it before war breaks out and now starts conversions. The tables are abit turned here with limited time for training and rushed conversions, but I agree, they must do it. I would assume that within a few months of the real panic, eg. december 1939, a hundred of them are ready. But the carrier pilots would not be skilled in their handling or it would ge RAF pilots not skilled in carrier landings.
Distributed on the Ark Royal sister (any name ideas), Eagle and the three follies there is maybe a squadron for each, two for the ark royal sister. Not sure the sea fire would be as highly prioritized yet simply because of the urgency and because sea hurricanes are good enough.

Also, beware of the Germans, they are making new stuff too. ITTL Heinkel are making fighters at least in low volumes and its no longer the He-112B model (any takers how an He-112B evolution would be at this time). A navalized He-100 is also coming along (when this happens the sea fires will definately be a priority) because He-100 now see a chance to compete against the Bf109.

F4F, yes they would certainly try. But how? It cant fly acros the atlantic and the carriers are on the wrong side.






With the F4F's, they are a close match for the (OTL) 112's, as well as having outstanding high speed handling as well as very high diving speed and decent energy retention, coupled with the .50 M2, with outstanding ballistics and good burst mass for 1940 standards.

F4F's will be a nasty surprise indeed. Especially if the 112's retain their heavy control forces at 400+ IAS.

Now question that the F4F's would be a competitive response when available.

Okay so the British navy has been defeated. The United States fleet will be ready I am betting on it

The USN will take their lessons although they already IOTL prioritized carriers. Howevr, PH is definately butterflied.

It always surprised me the britain never made a decent naval fighter and had to rely on us designs

Yes, one might ask if it should change ITTL, but they were preparing to fight the Japanese and Italian land based aircraft IOTL, so I think no.

The rematch won't be so easy for the Germans.

The UK did have a submarine fleet in WWII, and in 1939 it was larger than the German one. Given what has happened, see a pickup of UK submarine activity. When the surface fleet sorties again it will be in force, and they will be looking to wipe the sea of the German surface ships.

True if the British prepare adequately for the rematch. Question is if they have the time.


The British predicament:
ITTL the 3 R's are in Halifax that is totally congested, meanwhile, way too little shipping is getting across the Atlantic from West and South respectively. One of the next update will feature the Spanish and Italian actions. They will start to cause trouble by allowing re-supply and scouting west of Spain and so forth, so the blockade is quite effective.

The Nelrods and the remaining two Admirals and the QE's are in Britain with Eagle, the Ark Royal sister and the 3 follies.
Problem is, until much better prepared (eg. loaded with F4F's), the British flat-tops are not ready to take on the Germans (even then its tough). So what do they do:
1: send all their assets to Halifax ill-prepared and get the Convoy home? (NB. Germans would have adequate time to assemble mot of their assets).
2: Prepare better (but without F4F's) and starve?
3: Send the convoy ignoring the risk?
4: Scatter it in smaller groups with an R class each and hope the Germans wont catch them all (which is a reasonable assumption, but you might lose 1/3-2/3's).
5: Scatter it in groups without he R's, pray and hope a few ships with F4F's get through?

NB. even without shooting any ships, the blockade is working. The congestion problems and delays are well beyond manegable.

Waiting, at least partly, obviously provides the opportunity that some of the German forces are home for refit.
Also, the North Atlantic could be expected to prevent carrier operations in November-December.
 
Consider production of the Sea Hurricane bumped up ITTL. If the RN knows that Germany was developing carriers, so something better than the Fulmar should have been on their sights. OTL, conversion kits were slapped onto existing Hurricanes, so it's reasonable that doing that was considered an acceptable alternative, and they kept that card in their pockets.

That also allows the them to sail over to get US planes. The F4f should be able to operate off of any British flattop, so I'd say they'll phone some orders in, convert a couple of decks of Hurricanes, and scurry over with the largest fleet they can manage.

Okay so the British navy has been defeated. The United States fleet will be ready I am betting on it

With no Pearl Harbor, as long as Germany doesn't bother US ships, the US will be unwilling to get in. It will take an egregious provocation, since the general feeling of the US in 1939 and 40 was that Britain suckered them into a war that they got nothing out of except a casualty list.
 
The only advantage I see the British gaining from the Germans blockading them is that the more longer German warships stay at sea, the more likely those ships will suffer system damages such as pipes for heating the ship to the electronics of the radars and Firecontrol of the boats.

Each time a German ship is needed to go to port they run the risk of a submarine ambush.
 
Each time a German ship is needed to go to port they run the risk of a submarine ambush.

Right, the positions are reversed. the RN should have several subs stationed near the approaches of every German harbor, and as many as possible prowling around looking for the ships themselves.
 
Right, the positions are reversed. the RN should have several subs stationed near the approaches of every German harbor, and as many as possible prowling around looking for the ships themselves.

Haven't heard anything about ASW. Has Germany what was the German R&D budget like in the 30's?

I agree submarines are a way attritting the german fleets.However, so it was OTL and it only succeeded a few times. Badically, a lot of luck is required to be in position when you sail 7 knots and your foes at least 19 knots.
For example: The 13 knots convoys iotl had quite low losses
Going close to the harbors will be quite dangerous, because of minefields and patrolling German ships.
I’ll try to write about it in the next update
 
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