I am actually wondering what would happen when the risk becomes this extreme. I think there would be very few customers and that they would stay in port.
The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine
- Thread starter Gudestein
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- reichsmarine ww1 ww2
Well, there's this. And then there's Kaga's history. And also Akagi's history. Plus there's Soryu's service in China, or rather off China. Will that do for a start?
I am right and here's the page where the Mods laid out their reasoning.
I could not have said it better. The doctrines for such raids otl were developed without specific experiences, although with competent crews, and then they were adjusted during the war.
Having read through them there is really no examples of massed carrier strikes. In contrast, your source specifies the doctrine as a theoretical conception thought out by the IJN.
I am not contesting that they played a part in it! (Sorry if i wasn't clear on that)
But nowhere do these sources mention massive logistical problems which you imply. (Again Sorry, if i interpret to much into your posts)
These sources admit that the carrier use failed their political and psychological goals, but say nothing about failures because of lack of training/experience.
And that is my point. I think it could have been achieved with excessive training.
Like Lufwaffe success proved 1939 OTL.
Is it improbable? Maybe. Is it impossible No! OTL proved that.
What could be way for making it more beliveable is cooperation between Germany and Japan early on, in the form of knowledge and experience sharing
CalBear can put it best, or Astrodragon, but put simply the massed use of carriers is started by the RN in the 1930's, albeit with two carriers. I know that that's not really 'massed', but that starts the practice. The USN also started using multiple carriers, as did the IJN.
Now for the most important area. Training/experience. The IJN is the fearsome weapon that it is in 1941 because of two factors. The first is the war in China, where the pilots, commanders and above all carrier crew get a huge amount of hands on experience. Not war games, not training on theoretical concepts, I am talking actual practical experience. There is a reason why the Arizona blows sky-high after a hit by a bomber, and that is that the Japanese air crew have both been there and done that. The other reason is that IJN carrier pilots are the cream of the cream, having been rigorously selected and then getting at least 300 hours training. According to my edition of Eagle Against The Sun some pilots have 800+ hours experience.
Carrier crew experience is another factor. The RN created the concept of the carrier in the First World War and their allies the US and Japan copied them and then continued their development. Carriers were built according to available hulls, conversions, building slips and the limits laid down by the Washington Naval Treaty. For instance British carriers were designed for usage in European waters, where they would be able to benefit from friendly fighter cover as they would most likely be attacked by enemy planes. That is why British carriers carried fewer planes and had more armour. HMS Indomitable received two direct hits from German bombs in 1942, along with three near misses. She was steaming at 28.5 knots two hours later. RN damage control, plus armour, helped. RN damage control was in fact excellent. So was USN damage control. IJN damage control - not so much, because fewer specialised damage control crew were on each ship. If the Germans learn about damage control from the IJN they would not do well.
The first use of 6 aircraft carriers is by Kido Butai in 1941. At Pearl Harbour. But each individual carrier has seen their crews intensely trained, with experienced crewmembers leading the inexperienced, and with many if not most of their pilots having combat experience.
Let me put it another way. By 1939 the RN, USN and IJN have been operating carriers for two entire decades. They are therefore ahead of every other navy on the planet. If the Kriegsmarine develops multiple carriers (which would in itself cause every light to burn through the night in the Admiralty the moment the news came though because the RN would realise in an instant that the Germans were going to attack them with those carriers) then they will be behind the curve in almost all respect.
So yes, it's improbable.
This I don't agree with as much. In the 20s and 30s carriers are still regarded as toys by most naval strategists. That took a long time to change. Until Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk, conventional wisdom was that well manned ships with room to maneuver were essentially immune to air attack.
With that said, those massive air wings are still a stretch to my mind. The Kriegsmarine may well sacrifice survivability for a larger airwing. Personally, I'd suspect that the max size for the German air wings would be 70, with 60 more like it.
Not so much toys as more scouts for the battleships. Offensive weapons in other words, if for other reasons. Naval doctrine in the 1920's and early 1930's is that the carriers would be the eyes of the fleet, finding the enemy, and the battleships the fists. It wasn't until the mid-1930's and after that a change in the use of carriers becomes discussed, as the increase in power of plane engines meant that larger and more powerful planes could carry larger and more powerful bombs and aerial torpedoes.
Taranto changes the mindset in many naval aviation officers in 1940. Battleships (in an anchorage at least) are vulnerable.
True, but even then it was thought that as long as there was room to maneuver, the battleship would avoid most or all of the ordinance dropped. I believe the general lack of AA indicates the general thought of how dangerous planes could be.
Oh, I agree. But my point is that carriers were always seen as as offensive weapon, to find and fix the position of the enemy. They were never a defensive weapon. So if the German Navy builds multiple carriers then that's an immediate red flag for the Admiralty. They will watch them, they will build carriers in response and they will not be complacent.
Fair enough. Given that they are one battleship short, maybe they could swing another carrier to make up the difference, like another Ark Royal class. Granted, the RN is still many tons heavier than OTL.
Given conventional wisdom, it may well be seen that such carriers are meant as commerce raiders...no one will expect a slovenly merchant to dodge a bomb, and certainly not tank it.
(I have placed the words above in bold) In which case that would especially made the RN sit up and take notice. Commerce raiders were a direct threat to the lifeblood of the country.
True, but the response would probably be more cruisers, which would make sense anyhow if your most likely enemy is gearing up for commerce warfare.
I think that everyone needs a time out. I'm not one that goes against the any of the mod's here and I understand that @Cymraeg is raising points that may be valid (I like your TLs and respect you for them). However, I and many others are enjoying Gudestein's story here and after all that is what it is a story all of the works on this from be it pre/post 1900 or ASB are fiction, the authors take liberties with history that is what Alternate History is yes we try to keep it as close to history as possible but after so much distance form the main POD that becomes hard to do with out restricting the butterflies. Mandating that Butterflies be redistricted goes against the point of writing a fictional story even a historical fiction like Alternate Histories are. Bring up an inactive member who wrote to just piss everyone off (who must have been before 2011 when I joined cause I don't remember any of this) feels to me like a low blow. Lets just agree to disagree, hug and get along there is enough in life for us to get upset and pissed off about not this. @Gudestein enjoying the story keep up the good work; @Cymraeg I love Rob Returns keep up the good work.
With Respect to all and malice to none.
CL
Any mod if you feel this post is unwarranted or uncalled for feel free to delete it Just had to say my peace.
With Respect to all and malice to none.
CL
Any mod if you feel this post is unwarranted or uncalled for feel free to delete it Just had to say my peace.
Ok, he kind of admits it,
Unless it’s a poor wording for I’ll keep trying
You are 90% right
Ok, sorry to Cymraeq.
I have a soft spot for the underdogs and Ovaron is clearly one of those.
They did, but initially they only build two like OTL. They completed them unlike OTL and the RN carriers got the complements they requested and started building more than otl.
It’s the German use of pre-planned conversions, deckparks and a later generation of planes that is the reason why they could steal a march on the RN.
I’ll reply in more detail before the next update. You did miss a tiny detail.
The German struck in separate waves from one carrier at the time.
Thus, there were no mass coordinated attack among multiple carriers.
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