He is more than likely going to get sent to Trent Park more than anything else given his rank, that place was really useful.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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That's assuming he gets captured, he may manage to slip their clutches.
I wouldn't take the DAK for dead yet even with the predictable losses oncoming.
The Allies have only a formation fresh that has not engaged and is available for a pursuit. The remainder has been utterly exhausted by a long and brutal day of fighting and are running thin on ammunition, especially for the artillery as mentioned. And it's also the case for the RAF mentioned to be utterly exhausted by four days of intensive operation, which probably means the Luftwaffe will be able to effectively intervene in support of the retreating DAK or what's left of it.
That's not a lot, but I think it might be just enough to bring the DAK back to Sirte through the following days.
The Allies have only a formation fresh that has not engaged and is available for a pursuit. The remainder has been utterly exhausted by a long and brutal day of fighting and are running thin on ammunition, especially for the artillery as mentioned. And it's also the case for the RAF mentioned to be utterly exhausted by four days of intensive operation, which probably means the Luftwaffe will be able to effectively intervene in support of the retreating DAK or what's left of it.
That's not a lot, but I think it might be just enough to bring the DAK back to Sirte through the following days.
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Still only a tiny fraction of the mobile forces they initially had, and virtually none of the foot-soldiers, and likely very little artillery either.
I am enjoying the story immensely. I am of the opinion that the 2lb AT gun was a mistake from the start and was inferior in performance "In Combat" than the 57mm would have been. The 2lb AT was a great hole puncher but failed at infantry support. The 57 mm as used by the Royal Navy from 1925 had a muzzle velocity of 727MPS which is decent for the time. In fact I would guess the HE capabilities would have been more useful and the slight loss of AP performance from the 6Lb AT gun would be acceptable.
I think people here are slightly overestimating the withdrawing Afrika Korps' navigation difficulties. They aren't trying to cross hundreds of miles of desert and arrive at a particular dot on the map. "Disengage to the south, drive 20-ish kilometres (that's 2 hours at 10km/h) roughly southwest then turn northwest and keep going until you hit Wadi Harawah or the coast road" are directions that barely need a compass to follow, let alone an accurate map (it's dark, the Pole Star will tell you if you're going SW or NW). The big issue is that any vehicle that breaks down or hits unexpected soft/rough ground is unlikely to get help.
The bigger issue is that only mechanised/motorised forces (and any PBI that manage to hitch a lift) are able to do it. No unit is going to march 50km in a night and anyone that tries is going to be stuck in the desert, with few supplies and no support, when the sun comes up and British motorised forces start their pursuit down the coast road. So dismounted tankers, artillery crews that have lost their tows and any foot infantry are going to be left behind to surrender the next morning. What makes it to Wadi Harawah is going to be a straggle of disorganised remnants, pretty much useless for any sort of combat until they get back to Sirte and Rommel can see about improvising a kampfgruppe.
I doubt the British will be able to pursue effectively in the night. It's dark, their armoured units (especially) have had a long march followed by a hard fight and everyone is exhausted, disorganised and short of fuel and ammo. Charging blindly West in the dark is a recipe for breakdowns, friendly fire and units getting lost. I'd expect a strong armoured reconnaissance force (11th Hussars plus maybe some "fresh" units from 22nd Armoured) to be sent West down the coast road in the morning while the main force tries to sort itself out.
The bigger issue is that only mechanised/motorised forces (and any PBI that manage to hitch a lift) are able to do it. No unit is going to march 50km in a night and anyone that tries is going to be stuck in the desert, with few supplies and no support, when the sun comes up and British motorised forces start their pursuit down the coast road. So dismounted tankers, artillery crews that have lost their tows and any foot infantry are going to be left behind to surrender the next morning. What makes it to Wadi Harawah is going to be a straggle of disorganised remnants, pretty much useless for any sort of combat until they get back to Sirte and Rommel can see about improvising a kampfgruppe.
I doubt the British will be able to pursue effectively in the night. It's dark, their armoured units (especially) have had a long march followed by a hard fight and everyone is exhausted, disorganised and short of fuel and ammo. Charging blindly West in the dark is a recipe for breakdowns, friendly fire and units getting lost. I'd expect a strong armoured reconnaissance force (11th Hussars plus maybe some "fresh" units from 22nd Armoured) to be sent West down the coast road in the morning while the main force tries to sort itself out.
I don't think we have been overestimating. First of all, the retreat has to take place very quickly while most of the corps is engaged. This will be tough, very tough and is bound to lead to units both being left behind or disoriented. They may be simple instructions during an exercise, but under artillery fire it is another thing.
Second of all, the navigation problems do not come from officers not knowing where the north is. The problem is the terrain. It is not the North European Plain, it is the libyan desert. The British did not have the LRDG as guides to show them where the west lies, their compasses worked as well. But a motorized army crossing the desert should know where the soft sand is, where escarpments are and so on. The Germans do not have the luxury of such guidance. They go blindly south west.
If you drive through this then the column is stuck and you need multiple hours to cross a distance you would do in an hour if it was hard surface. And the photo in question is the Sirte Desert, terrain pretty much the same as in Nofilia.
Perhaps the worst is what actually lies 20km south of Nofilia: dozens of escarpments, big enough to be seen by satelite photos in google maps. The Germans would need the equivalent of the LRDG and time. They have neither.
20km south of Nofilia lies the graveyard of the Afrika Korps.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Some of the DAK managed to make it back to the coast road. Rommel will be screaming at the Italians to release the Ariete to cover their retreat. It won't be much - he's lost more than half his tanks I would guess and a good deal of his AT units which were sacrificed (along with almost all the Italians) .
So not buried yet but certainly on their last legs.
British will pursue but they will need time to sort out their troops which are strung across the desert as well. Rommel will be lucky to hold any positions around Sirte once the British are reorganised
Probably by thinking of the earlier organization Panzer Division. which had two regiments per division or three battalions per regiment.
Clarification: When they talk about gun tanks, they are meaning tanks other then say Panzer I/Panzer II? [IE: MG Tanks?]
Well, I had in mind the actual tank deliveries in North Africa from February to June 1941. What I underestimated was the availability of tanks for the battle. I thought a 2/3 estimate of ~128 gun tanks would be reasonable. However, in OTL they had around 101 gun tanks even with much fewer prior casualties compared to TTL. That's why I believe that in Allan's story they must have fewer than 100 guns tanks. If we take into account that in his first foray against the British Rommel had to abandon the battlefield and that Brevity was hard fought, I think it makes sense to have something like 80 gun tanks available for Battleaxe.
Indeed, when you see in the sources "gun tanks" it is about Pz III and IV.
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
My experience is that navigation after an engagement isn't as easy as you imply.
Keeping going in a straight line in the desert isn't such a simple task. Sure, you can correct by the Pole Star (assuming it's visible. It probably is, but that's not a 100%). A 5 degree error in heading "roughly SW" will take you about 1.3 miles off course. Judging 20 miles travelled isn't that easy. You've no landmarks to guide you, so you're just guessing on speed of advance. Indicated speed will not be the same as actual speed.
Then repeat for heading NW. The only reliable target is the coast road. Which is likely to be a busy place with potentially lots of enemy on it.
Unless they've done a lot of training specifically in desert navigation, there will be a significant attrition on the retreating forces. Trust me when I say one isn't thinking clearly after an engagement, and one defaults to the level of training one has. Those specifically trained in desert navigation will be fine. Those not, they're going to have issues.
One thing from this timelines perspective is the after battle reports.
British tanks no longer cut the mustard, they are in need of updating to keep that little bit of an edge.
The need for a decent he round is going to get so loud it cannot be ignored.
More or better sloped armour is needed.
But my my aren't there going to be lots of lovely German equipment to send home to be picked over and picked apart to see how German development is leading.
These bits or captured equipment this early and in this quantity are a huge boon to the British and the imprtance should not be understated.
British tanks no longer cut the mustard, they are in need of updating to keep that little bit of an edge.
The need for a decent he round is going to get so loud it cannot be ignored.
More or better sloped armour is needed.
But my my aren't there going to be lots of lovely German equipment to send home to be picked over and picked apart to see how German development is leading.
These bits or captured equipment this early and in this quantity are a huge boon to the British and the imprtance should not be understated.
How many of these defeated troops think they are the sole survivors of their units? How many are going to think "Sod this I'm not dying in the desert I'll just stop here and wait for the British to pick me up. For me the war is over."
I think many would prefer a British prison camp than going mad in sand at this rate.
Dying in the desert is something not any of them signed up for, I would think.
The vast majority of the Germans will also not be used to desert conditions. If you don't have access to transport then you don't have water and without water you die in the desert - and that death is not a pleasant one. The British will be picking up a lot of stragglers.
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