Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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ww2 bomb truck
2 1/2 ton cckw or m6 versian or some other adaptation
Military Vehicle Spotlight: 1945 CCKW 2-1/2-ton Cargo Truck with Wrecker Set No. 7
Giving the WWII 2-1/2-ton truck lifting power
www.militarytrader.com
Sooty
Banned
Those are American trucks the one pictured is British!ww2 bomb truck
2 1/2 ton cckw or m6 versian or some other adaptation
Military Vehicle Spotlight: 1945 CCKW 2-1/2-ton Cargo Truck with Wrecker Set No. 7
Giving the WWII 2-1/2-ton truck lifting power
Austin K6 Gantry truck!
Defiantly an Austin K6 Engineering truck as stated above.
Here is a captured one being used to work on an Sd.kfz 222 in the desert. If it does the job it does the job!
Here is a captured one being used to work on an Sd.kfz 222 in the desert. If it does the job it does the job!
And the second half of the North African match has kicked off. It looks like the British main thrust is going up against superior numbers, after a hard-fought battle with likely the best Italian troops in theatre. The flanking attack seems like it could save the main thrust's bacon, but I don't see either side winning a massive victory they can turn into a decisive breakthrough yet.
To be fair the Germans don't have the fuel, infrastructure and shipping to relocate the VIII and XI. Fliegerkorps (along with the 7th Parachute and 22nd Airlanding Divisions) to Tripolitania and to send the 5th Mountain Division in the desert will be somewhat counterproductive.
I would argue that further german commitmment in Tripolitania will be a good thing. Lets see them trying to increase their forces with just Tripoli as a port and Benghazi serving as a RAF base. The most economical way to destroy a panzer division is ... with a torpedo. Tripoli is now within Swordfish range. The lads of the 815 squadron will have a much easier job. Moreover, Wellingtons can bomb and mine the approaches from both Malta and Cyrenaica. The RN can sortie from Alexandria without having Luftwaffe Ju88 operating from Crete. If anything, ABC has more room to manouvre and he is the kind of commander who will seize the opportunity. Let them try.
A butterfly of holding Cyrenaica, is that Malta Runs are not needed to deliver aircraft. Instead, Argus, Furious, Ark Royal and occasionally Victorious can focus on delivering more aircraft to Takoradi. I suspect that this butterfly alone may free up another carrier for the Mediterranean Fleet sometime during summer. In general, I think the Commonwealth airforces in the Middle East will be a bit stronger in TTL.
There is also the fact that probably Formitable doesn't get hit. The Stukas that damaged her were operating from Cyrenaica in OTL. It may be that ABC will have a carrier to assist him in raids against Tripoli-bound shipping.
@allanpcameron how many aircraft did the RAF leave behind in Greece in TTL? If I am not mistaken they had to abandon 82 aircraft in OTL.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
While I have no idea how many RAF aircraft were left behind is Greece, after the evacuation. I do know why a large number of aircraft were abandoned. One of the faults that the RAF made was not to take sufficient supplies of spares with them when they deployed to Greece. In particular spare tail wheels, any aircraft that was forced to land away from an airfield, on what is particularly rocky ground, tended to smash its tail wheel. And without spare tail wheels, they couldn’t be repaired to enable them to fly out. And given the lack of developed roads, and the shortage of ‘Queen Mary’ aircraft transporters, meant that the aircraft recovery units, were unable to do their job. The RAF was and was for some time to come still operating on a basically peace time stance, where it expected to fly from established bases, with good communications and logistics. It didn’t really do the Boy Scout thing, living in a tent in a field, and roughing it. It was only after D-Day that the Tac airforce got its act together, and really in-braced the idea, though once the war was over, and with the introduction of jets it soon forgot all it had learned. Only to have to relearn it all again with the introduction of the Harrier in the nineteen sixties. Note that the Tac Air didn’t have to worry about aircraft recovery, by 44 it had enough aircraft that it could afford to write off any aircraft that landed away from base in a field.
RR.
RR.
Ooh, that's interesting. I mean, any Uranus-analogue is a long way off, and butterflies may indeed flap their wings (and Reichenau not give him a dead man's boots to fill), but if Paulus gets something of a better feel for the issues with extended supply lines and operational vulnerability to flanking manoeuvers and indeed the vital need for antitank weaponry in infantry units then that particular debacle may go somewhat differently ITTL.
Of course, if Paulus just becomes a casualty or POW in North Africa, then someone else can have... not much fun in Stalingrad.
Or can be used in the Indian Ocean as an Aircraft transport - allowing more aircraft to be deployed faster?
Force Z should have been able to have been covered by land based air
Also with Cyrenaica and Crete holding, there is no reason for Ark Royal to participate in Malta Runs. There is a good chance that she avoids her OTL fate.
With Crete holding, there is also the possibility that the valor of the italian frogmen will be spent in Souda Bay and not Alexandria. Torpedo bombers and destroyers operating from Crete will make resupplying the Dodecanese a costly affair while Crete will be a threat for the italian occupation zone in Greece. It is also a more opportune target, since it is much lighter defended than Alexandria. So, the MAS may sink destroyers and transports instead of damaging the OTL battleships. two fully modernized QEs and up to two additional carriers (if Ark Royal survives as well) could be theoretically added in Sommerville's Eastern Fleet. Some Zheng He vibes there...
Rights of the picture belong to Robert Taylor
With Crete holding, there is also the possibility that the valor of the italian frogmen will be spent in Souda Bay and not Alexandria. Torpedo bombers and destroyers operating from Crete will make resupplying the Dodecanese a costly affair while Crete will be a threat for the italian occupation zone in Greece. It is also a more opportune target, since it is much lighter defended than Alexandria. So, the MAS may sink destroyers and transports instead of damaging the OTL battleships. two fully modernized QEs and up to two additional carriers (if Ark Royal survives as well) could be theoretically added in Sommerville's Eastern Fleet. Some Zheng He vibes there...
Rights of the picture belong to Robert Taylor
I miss his writing, same with Astrodragon. Does anyone know what happened to either of them?
Astrodragon has to log in since May 10th. However, I cannot find Zheng He's profile. Has he deleted it?
That would require a Peerless Air Ministry to get sorted. However if British tank losses in the Western Desert are less catastrophic than OTL Sonnenblume and Battleaxe then there will be more to be sent to Malaya in the autumn of 1941, which may make significant difference to the ground campaign... if they are used effectively.
2 May 1941. Libya.
allanpcameron
Donor
2 May 1941. Libya.
With the information that Nofilia was probably reinforced during the night, Gambier-Parry consulted with General O’Connor, whether with two infantry Brigades and one Armoured Brigade, he’d be able to go up against a force at least as large as his own. It wasn’t clear from the RAF reconnaissance just what exactly had been moving towards Nofilia, but O’Connor was still confident that the planned two prong attack would be sufficient. The British columns therefore began moving as planned just before dawn, and once again moved relatively quickly, with minimal opposition for the next twenty or so miles until they came to the Abyar Wadi, where the Italians had set up a forward defensive position.
Once again, the British column had to deploy to attack the fixed defences, with the difficulty that the Wadi made it impossible to find a flank that could be turned by the tanks. As the day began to heat up, the aerial battle between the RAF and Luftwaffe intensified, but the British and Australian pilots once again found themselves at a disadvantage in both numbers and capability. The Blenheim Squadrons had carried out a low-level attack on Nofilia but had suffered the loss of five aircraft, for little reward.
The Italians, as they had at Ras El Ali, put up a spirited defence, but the pressure of the British attack finally cracked the Italian resolve, and the breakthrough was achieved by early afternoon. Once more a number of the British tanks had been destroyed and casualties taken by the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment. Brigadier Lomax, OC 16th Brigade was conscious that the next ten miles towards Nofilia would see further Italian resistance, and so he ordered his men to advance much more carefully. Brigadiers John Scott-Cockburn, commanding 22nd Armoured Brigade, had argued that punching forward with the tanks might be the better tactic, but he eventually agreed to support Lomax’s more careful approach.
Inland, the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade had found navigating and driving over the desert difficult. By the time the coast road column was prepared to move towards Nofilia, the Indians, with the regiment of tanks, had advanced to a position where their forward reconnaissance patrols could see the column that had reinforced Nofilia from the desert route. The information that this was made up of German tanks and vehicles caused Brigadier Vaughan to consult by radio with General Gambier-Parry. The long radio transmission was picked up and triangulated by the German signal’s unit, meaning that the Indian column’s position was now known, any chance of a surprise attack had been lost.
When General Streich had been informed of a British motorised unit in the vicinity, he immediately began to position 5th Light Division into a defensive line to protect the southern approaches to Nofilia. However, when General Rommel was apprised of this fact, he immediately ordered Streich to attack. He could see that if 5th LD could knock the British back, then Streich’s Division could then move towards the sea and cut off the British force on the coast.
It took Streich some time to get his men to move from their defensive positions to move towards attack. When Brigadier Vaughan was told that what looked like a German Panzer Division was approaching his position, he was very conscious of his vulnerability, and what it might mean for the coast road column. After a brief meeting with his senior officers, Vaughan ordered one of his battalions (11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry) to make haste back along the route they had taken and turn around and protect the supply column that was following. He made it clear that the supplies were under no circumstances to fall into enemy hands, even if that meant driving all the way back to Cairo. Vaughan, with the tanks of 3rd CLY, 2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse), 18th King Edward's Own Cavalry and the Brigade Group’s attached field and anti-tank artillery, would hit the advancing Germans with everything they had and then attempt a fighting withdrawal. These orders were passed back by radio, causing a degree of unease with both Generals O’Connor and Gambier-Parry.
O’Connor could see the advantage of continuing to attempt to circle around Nofilia and cut off the German line of retreat, his opinion on the Italian troops at Nofilia was scornful. Gambier-Parry, however, was much more aware of what would happen if his column was cut off, especially as he wasn’t completely sure what lay ahead of him. When General Wavell was informed of the situation, his natural instinct was to side with Gambier-Parry, but he knew that O’Connor was a gifted officer, whose Operation Compass had been such a success. The compromise agreed between the three Generals was that the coastal column would continue to advance, and gauge what kind of resistance they would face. If the enemy position was too strong, then the 16th Brigade should withdraw back to Ras El Ali, covered by the 22nd Armoured Brigade. The supply column was ordered to halt at Ras El Ali, and be prepared to fall back to the main line at El Agheila.
It was late afternoon before the first shots were fired by the Valiant I* tanks of 3rd CLY. The desert offered little in the way of cover, but the tanks had taken up positions as best they could, with the men of the 2nd Lancers deployed to support the tanks. The German approach had been monitored and the 25-pdrs of the 104th Royal Horse Artillery opened fire as the main German force came into range. The German response was quick and their battle drills were well ingrained in the fighting men. The British tank gunnery was good, but far too many of their shots of 2-pdr weren’t the capped version, and while the Panzer IIs were extremely vulnerable, the face-hardened armour of the medium Panzer III and IVs often defeated the British shots at the longest range.
The Valiant I*, with over 2 inches of armour, found that the German tanks’ 50mm guns were becoming more effective against them as the distance closed, and at 500 yards was certainly dangerous to the sides and rear of the tank. This situation was one of the scenarios that the Indians and 3rd CLY had trained together for. The artillery having fired for just over two minutes at their quickest rate, finishing with smoke shells, had already started to move to their secondary positions, where the 18th King Edward's Own Cavalry had quickly prepared positions. As the Germans closed, the British tanks covered the 2nd Lancers and anti-tank gunners, who moved back to a hastily agreed secondary position. Then the tanks, by Squadron, under the cover of smoke, also withdrew.
The 5th Light Division had two 'tank-hunting' battalions (Panzerjäger), who were quick to deploy and attempt to counter the British tanks. Amongst their weapons was the dual purpose 88mm Flak gun, which they began to use very effectively against the Valiant I* tanks. Its penetrative power was more than adequate against the British armour and the 3rd CLY began to suffer losses. As the battlefield was a large open space with little or no cover, the normal German tactic of seeking open flanks meant that after the second artillery bombardment by the 104th RHA, the ability of the Indian Cavalry and the Cruiser tanks to withdraw in good order was becoming more difficult.
Seeing that the stop and go pattern wasn’t working effectively, Brigadier Vaughan ordered his remaining forces to retreat eastwards as fast as possible. He reckoned that the vehicles under his command would be fast enough to pull away from the Germans, and there was some good ground for a defensive position some miles to his rear. If he could make it there, with enough time to turn around and face the Germans, then he had a chance of slowing them down. One Squadron of tanks and one company of infantry were ordered to act as a rear-guard, even if it meant their total loss.
When General Gambier-Parry was informed of this plan, he realised that the German division chasing Vaughan was an imminent threat to his own flank and rear. He immediately ordered his force to turn around and head back, at best possible speed, to Ras El Ali. He also informed Brigadier Vaughan of this intention and ordered Vaughan try to bring as much of his force as possible to rendezvous at Ras El Ali. There they combine their numbers, to give them both a better chance against a German Panzer Division, otherwise they could be defeated in detail.
Brigadier Vaughan acknowledged the order, but the headlong flight he had initiated make it impossible to contact all those under his command. The 11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry were well on their way towards the supply column, and Vaughan still believed that was the best use for them. The tanks of the 3rd CLY were able to be contacted through their internal radios, but both Indian Cavalry Battalions, along with the artillery, were in transit and their radio lorries weren’t in a position to pass on the order.
The map reference that Vaughan had given as the place to fall back to, the upper part of the Matratin Wadi, was reached first by the Royal Horse Artillery, who deployed to give cover to the rest of the Brigade. The two cavalry battalions had become mixed as they withdrew, and the tanks of the CLY, among the slowest of the vehicles, were the last to arrive. The rear-guard had done an excellent job of delaying the German advance for a short time, giving the rest of the Brigade time to reach the rendezvous and turn to face their pursuers. Between the liberal use of smoke from the artillery and the tanks, and the setting of the sun gave the Germans pause, as they were not entirely sure what they were running in to. Like the British Brigade, their own units had become entangled, and while a few probing attacks were made and resisted fiercely, as night fell, the battle petered out.
Consulting his senior officers, and his maps, there was a route marked out by 11th Hussars, that would lead Vaughan’s force to the coast road and Ras El Ali. This would need some smart night navigation, but the plan was to begin thinning out the troops during the hours of darkness, and have everyone on the route before dawn. Once again, a small party would need to stay behind to play the role of rear-guard, to keep the Germans from realising too soon what the Brigade was doing.
General Gambier-Parry’s larger force’s withdrawal went more smoothly as they hadn’t been fully committed to the attack on Nofilia. The morale of the men however suffered slightly as they suddenly had to turn around and retrace their steps. By nightfall the majority had reached Ras El Ali and had begun to dig in. The two regiments of Valiant I* tanks, reduced somewhat by losses as well as wear and tear, but still able to field eighty-five tanks, were concentrated above the escarpment, and to the rear of the main positions. There was no sign that the Italians had followed the British withdrawal from their main positions at Nofilia.
With the information that Nofilia was probably reinforced during the night, Gambier-Parry consulted with General O’Connor, whether with two infantry Brigades and one Armoured Brigade, he’d be able to go up against a force at least as large as his own. It wasn’t clear from the RAF reconnaissance just what exactly had been moving towards Nofilia, but O’Connor was still confident that the planned two prong attack would be sufficient. The British columns therefore began moving as planned just before dawn, and once again moved relatively quickly, with minimal opposition for the next twenty or so miles until they came to the Abyar Wadi, where the Italians had set up a forward defensive position.
Once again, the British column had to deploy to attack the fixed defences, with the difficulty that the Wadi made it impossible to find a flank that could be turned by the tanks. As the day began to heat up, the aerial battle between the RAF and Luftwaffe intensified, but the British and Australian pilots once again found themselves at a disadvantage in both numbers and capability. The Blenheim Squadrons had carried out a low-level attack on Nofilia but had suffered the loss of five aircraft, for little reward.
The Italians, as they had at Ras El Ali, put up a spirited defence, but the pressure of the British attack finally cracked the Italian resolve, and the breakthrough was achieved by early afternoon. Once more a number of the British tanks had been destroyed and casualties taken by the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment. Brigadier Lomax, OC 16th Brigade was conscious that the next ten miles towards Nofilia would see further Italian resistance, and so he ordered his men to advance much more carefully. Brigadiers John Scott-Cockburn, commanding 22nd Armoured Brigade, had argued that punching forward with the tanks might be the better tactic, but he eventually agreed to support Lomax’s more careful approach.
Inland, the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade had found navigating and driving over the desert difficult. By the time the coast road column was prepared to move towards Nofilia, the Indians, with the regiment of tanks, had advanced to a position where their forward reconnaissance patrols could see the column that had reinforced Nofilia from the desert route. The information that this was made up of German tanks and vehicles caused Brigadier Vaughan to consult by radio with General Gambier-Parry. The long radio transmission was picked up and triangulated by the German signal’s unit, meaning that the Indian column’s position was now known, any chance of a surprise attack had been lost.
When General Streich had been informed of a British motorised unit in the vicinity, he immediately began to position 5th Light Division into a defensive line to protect the southern approaches to Nofilia. However, when General Rommel was apprised of this fact, he immediately ordered Streich to attack. He could see that if 5th LD could knock the British back, then Streich’s Division could then move towards the sea and cut off the British force on the coast.
It took Streich some time to get his men to move from their defensive positions to move towards attack. When Brigadier Vaughan was told that what looked like a German Panzer Division was approaching his position, he was very conscious of his vulnerability, and what it might mean for the coast road column. After a brief meeting with his senior officers, Vaughan ordered one of his battalions (11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry) to make haste back along the route they had taken and turn around and protect the supply column that was following. He made it clear that the supplies were under no circumstances to fall into enemy hands, even if that meant driving all the way back to Cairo. Vaughan, with the tanks of 3rd CLY, 2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse), 18th King Edward's Own Cavalry and the Brigade Group’s attached field and anti-tank artillery, would hit the advancing Germans with everything they had and then attempt a fighting withdrawal. These orders were passed back by radio, causing a degree of unease with both Generals O’Connor and Gambier-Parry.
O’Connor could see the advantage of continuing to attempt to circle around Nofilia and cut off the German line of retreat, his opinion on the Italian troops at Nofilia was scornful. Gambier-Parry, however, was much more aware of what would happen if his column was cut off, especially as he wasn’t completely sure what lay ahead of him. When General Wavell was informed of the situation, his natural instinct was to side with Gambier-Parry, but he knew that O’Connor was a gifted officer, whose Operation Compass had been such a success. The compromise agreed between the three Generals was that the coastal column would continue to advance, and gauge what kind of resistance they would face. If the enemy position was too strong, then the 16th Brigade should withdraw back to Ras El Ali, covered by the 22nd Armoured Brigade. The supply column was ordered to halt at Ras El Ali, and be prepared to fall back to the main line at El Agheila.
It was late afternoon before the first shots were fired by the Valiant I* tanks of 3rd CLY. The desert offered little in the way of cover, but the tanks had taken up positions as best they could, with the men of the 2nd Lancers deployed to support the tanks. The German approach had been monitored and the 25-pdrs of the 104th Royal Horse Artillery opened fire as the main German force came into range. The German response was quick and their battle drills were well ingrained in the fighting men. The British tank gunnery was good, but far too many of their shots of 2-pdr weren’t the capped version, and while the Panzer IIs were extremely vulnerable, the face-hardened armour of the medium Panzer III and IVs often defeated the British shots at the longest range.
The Valiant I*, with over 2 inches of armour, found that the German tanks’ 50mm guns were becoming more effective against them as the distance closed, and at 500 yards was certainly dangerous to the sides and rear of the tank. This situation was one of the scenarios that the Indians and 3rd CLY had trained together for. The artillery having fired for just over two minutes at their quickest rate, finishing with smoke shells, had already started to move to their secondary positions, where the 18th King Edward's Own Cavalry had quickly prepared positions. As the Germans closed, the British tanks covered the 2nd Lancers and anti-tank gunners, who moved back to a hastily agreed secondary position. Then the tanks, by Squadron, under the cover of smoke, also withdrew.
The 5th Light Division had two 'tank-hunting' battalions (Panzerjäger), who were quick to deploy and attempt to counter the British tanks. Amongst their weapons was the dual purpose 88mm Flak gun, which they began to use very effectively against the Valiant I* tanks. Its penetrative power was more than adequate against the British armour and the 3rd CLY began to suffer losses. As the battlefield was a large open space with little or no cover, the normal German tactic of seeking open flanks meant that after the second artillery bombardment by the 104th RHA, the ability of the Indian Cavalry and the Cruiser tanks to withdraw in good order was becoming more difficult.
Seeing that the stop and go pattern wasn’t working effectively, Brigadier Vaughan ordered his remaining forces to retreat eastwards as fast as possible. He reckoned that the vehicles under his command would be fast enough to pull away from the Germans, and there was some good ground for a defensive position some miles to his rear. If he could make it there, with enough time to turn around and face the Germans, then he had a chance of slowing them down. One Squadron of tanks and one company of infantry were ordered to act as a rear-guard, even if it meant their total loss.
When General Gambier-Parry was informed of this plan, he realised that the German division chasing Vaughan was an imminent threat to his own flank and rear. He immediately ordered his force to turn around and head back, at best possible speed, to Ras El Ali. He also informed Brigadier Vaughan of this intention and ordered Vaughan try to bring as much of his force as possible to rendezvous at Ras El Ali. There they combine their numbers, to give them both a better chance against a German Panzer Division, otherwise they could be defeated in detail.
Brigadier Vaughan acknowledged the order, but the headlong flight he had initiated make it impossible to contact all those under his command. The 11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry were well on their way towards the supply column, and Vaughan still believed that was the best use for them. The tanks of the 3rd CLY were able to be contacted through their internal radios, but both Indian Cavalry Battalions, along with the artillery, were in transit and their radio lorries weren’t in a position to pass on the order.
The map reference that Vaughan had given as the place to fall back to, the upper part of the Matratin Wadi, was reached first by the Royal Horse Artillery, who deployed to give cover to the rest of the Brigade. The two cavalry battalions had become mixed as they withdrew, and the tanks of the CLY, among the slowest of the vehicles, were the last to arrive. The rear-guard had done an excellent job of delaying the German advance for a short time, giving the rest of the Brigade time to reach the rendezvous and turn to face their pursuers. Between the liberal use of smoke from the artillery and the tanks, and the setting of the sun gave the Germans pause, as they were not entirely sure what they were running in to. Like the British Brigade, their own units had become entangled, and while a few probing attacks were made and resisted fiercely, as night fell, the battle petered out.
Consulting his senior officers, and his maps, there was a route marked out by 11th Hussars, that would lead Vaughan’s force to the coast road and Ras El Ali. This would need some smart night navigation, but the plan was to begin thinning out the troops during the hours of darkness, and have everyone on the route before dawn. Once again, a small party would need to stay behind to play the role of rear-guard, to keep the Germans from realising too soon what the Brigade was doing.
General Gambier-Parry’s larger force’s withdrawal went more smoothly as they hadn’t been fully committed to the attack on Nofilia. The morale of the men however suffered slightly as they suddenly had to turn around and retrace their steps. By nightfall the majority had reached Ras El Ali and had begun to dig in. The two regiments of Valiant I* tanks, reduced somewhat by losses as well as wear and tear, but still able to field eighty-five tanks, were concentrated above the escarpment, and to the rear of the main positions. There was no sign that the Italians had followed the British withdrawal from their main positions at Nofilia.
Even with less losses the surviving tanks are probably worn out & would require expensive, in both man-hours & cash, refurbishment & it may be better to just salvage what can be & scrap the rest. Rather than sending it to a quiet backwater like Malaya as everyone knows tanks can't be used in the jungle anyway.
With 2 Brigades attacking 2 Divisions I'm not surprised to see them being forced to retreat.
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