Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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So it looks like the Greek campaign is going to be a bit longer and costlier for the Germans. In its self this is not a big game changer. Barbarossa will still go ahead as planned. The other big difference is that thanks to a small POD the RE have lots of high explosives and for a corps that is designed to build stuff they do tend to take great delight in blowing things up. Already in the story we can see the benefits of demolitions in slowing down the German advance and I can see no reason why this won't continue until the end of the campaign. Of course this wanted destruction won't be limited to roads and railways but also ports and airfields. The more the Germans are delayed the more time there is to do a realy good job of destroying infastructure.

This means that the OTL high risk invasion of Crete is now even more risky. OTL the Germans where able to launch their attack relatively quickly after the fall of main land Greece. ITTL the delays to the campaign and the further delays in getting the airfields repaired and getting the necessary supplies in place will mean that the defenders of Crete will have more time to prepare and IMO have the opertunity to be reinforced and resupplied (3 to 4 weeks could see captured Italian equipment from north Africa ships to Crete or even a convoy rushed through from India with some British equipment). Add to this that I suspect that more quality forces will make it out of Greece with more equipment then Crete has just become a very tough nut to creak indeed. Nad that's without taking into account the handful of Matilda's in situ which German air recon is likely to discover pre attack.

I feel that given the low chances of success for Operation Mercury it could and likely would be cancelled leaving the Luftwaffe to keep Crete suppressed as an offensive base much like Malta ( possible in 1941 but becoming more problematic once the US joins the war). If that's the case (or the invasion is the disaster for the Germans it's shaping up to be ITTL) The Greek forces would IMO quickly be equipped with British equipment. No doubt a token force of Greeks would be sent to finnish of the Axis in North Africa. For the rest some would be sent back to Greece to organise resistance groups (to the detriment of the communists) while the rest are going to be agitating for offensive action (much to the delight of Winston who will be cheering them on in the hopes of his cherished Balkan campaign). I could see some of the greek island being invaded giving valuable experience for TTLs version of Operation Acrobat/Husky and an invasion of mainland Greece could be on the cards for the Allies as either an adjunct of, or instead of the Italian Campaign.

Of course once the British realise that the Germans aren't going to invade Crete or are quickly defeated as looks likely, then the Matilda's on the island would be replaced by more capable tanks. But what then, perhaps a well earned retirement for the Matilda 1's in the tropical sun of Malaya
, to see out the rest of their service quietly policing the Empire 😉
 
I wonder if the Allies, now they have some more explosives to play around with, will have a go at blocking the Corinth Canal.

This means that the OTL high risk invasion of Crete is now even more risky. OTL the Germans where able to launch their attack relatively quickly after the fall of main land Greece. ITTL the delays to the campaign and the further delays in getting the airfields repaired and getting the necessary supplies in place will mean that the defenders of Crete will have more time to prepare and IMO have the opertunity to be reinforced and resupplied (3 to 4 weeks could see captured Italian equipment from north Africa ships to Crete or even a convoy rushed through from India with some British equipment). Add to this that I suspect that more quality forces will make it out of Greece with more equipment then Crete has just become a very tough nut to creak indeed. Nad that's without taking into account the handful of Matilda's in situ which German air recon is likely to discover pre attack.

I feel that given the low chances of success for Operation Mercury it could and likely would be cancelled leaving the Luftwaffe to keep Crete suppressed as an offensive base much like Malta ( possible in 1941 but becoming more problematic once the US joins the war). If that's the case (or the invasion is the disaster for the Germans it's shaping up to be ITTL) The Greek forces would IMO quickly be equipped with British equipment. No doubt a token force of Greeks would be sent to finnish of the Axis in North Africa. For the rest some would be sent back to Greece to organise resistance groups (to the detriment of the communists) while the rest are going to be agitating for offensive action (much to the delight of Winston who will be cheering them on in the hopes of his cherished Balkan campaign). I could see some of the greek island being invaded giving valuable experience for TTLs version of Operation Acrobat/Husky and an invasion of mainland Greece could be on the cards for the Allies as either an adjunct of, or instead of the Italian Campaign.

Of course once the British realise that the Germans aren't going to invade Crete or are quickly defeated as looks likely, then the Matilda's on the island would be replaced by more capable tanks. But what then, perhaps a well earned retirement for the Matilda 1's in the tropical sun of Malaya
, to see out the rest of their service quietly policing the Empire 😉
I think the big take-away from that play-out will be the retaining of the Fallschirmjäger as a parachute unit, rather than just an elite infantry unit.
 
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Of course once the British realise that the Germans aren't going to invade Crete or are quickly defeated as looks likely, then the Matilda's on the island would be replaced by more capable tanks. But what then, perhaps a well earned retirement for the Matilda 1's in the tropical sun of Malaya
, to see out the rest of their service quietly policing the Empire 😉

Much that I agree with in your post .. except the quoted element :frown:

iTTL the Matilda I, though significantly improved from OTL, is already a "third line" choice, soon to be "fourth rank" when 6lb versions become available.
Provided that enough remains on Crete to be a viable population, with crews, spares, ammo, fuel and trained maintenance staff of course,
IMHO it makes more sense to leave them there in an area where armoured warfare is unlikely.

Save the shipping to move first line kit directly to an active front i.e.currently North Africa
.. and if (and only if) any existing kit is surplus to requirement in those theatres (or logistically difficult of course)
shift that to currently inactive areas where newly recruited forces need training in modern tactics
 
Shipping always looks for reverse cargos. So ships bringing rubber and tin to Europe will be looking for a cargo to take back to Malaya. Ans if HMG is willing to pay to ship obsolete tanks to Malaya, who are the shipping companies to complain? What else were they expected to ship back in wartime?
 
Shipping always looks for reverse cargos. So ships bringing rubber and tin to Europe will be looking for a cargo to take back to Malaya. Ans if HMG is willing to pay to ship obsolete tanks to Malaya, who are the shipping companies to complain? What else were they expected to ship back in wartime?
We'll have to see how many obsolete tanks are left after Greece. I can't imagine there'll be many, unless you count stuff like the Matilda II as obsolete.
 
I wonder if the Allies, now they have some more explosives to play around with, will have a go at blocking the Corinth Canal.


I think the big take-away from that play-out will be the retaining of the Fallschirmjäger as a parachute unit, rather than just an elite infantry unit.
[/QUOTE

Quite a few possibilities during Barbarossa for large scale airborn operations. Also less losses to the Ju52 transports.
 
Much that I agree with in your post .. except the quoted element :frown:

iTTL the Matilda I, though significantly improved from OTL, is already a "third line" choice, soon to be "fourth rank" when 6lb versions become available.
Provided that enough remains on Crete to be a viable population, with crews, spares, ammo, fuel and trained maintenance staff of course,
IMHO it makes more sense to leave them there in an area where armoured warfare is unlikely.

Save the shipping to move first line kit directly to an active front i.e.currently North Africa
.. and if (and only if) any existing kit is surplus to requirement in those theatres (or logistically difficult of course)
shift that to currently inactive areas where newly recruited forces need training in modern tactics

I have a soft spot for the Matilda 1 especially the improved version in this TL. I think it reasonable that with the Brisitish having more and better tanks along with less losses (so far) that some surplus armour could be made available for the far east. As you said, sending Matilda 1s, Matilda 2's and A13 (all soon to be considered 2nd and 3rd rate) to an area where large scale armoured warfare is felt to be unlikely makes more sence than sending Valiants and Malaya defiantly fits that description.
 
The OTL Cruisers were built on a mild steel framework, so if a proper job was wanted to be done, drill out the old rivets,
Get new plate, hot rivet/conical bolt back into place.

That's depot level work.

If you're just attempting to get "deflection" prior to impact on the primary armour, does it really need to be that precise?
 
I wonder if the Allies, now they have some more explosives to play around with, will have a go at blocking the Corinth Canal.

...We managed to do that OTL, despite the German's best efforts.

We sank a wooden an 80 ton wooden barge on the west end and brought a major bridge down on the canal using explosives. Despite the Germans capturing the Bridge and the explosives. The idiots gathered all the explosives together and it got set off by a stray bullet IIRC.

It took them from the 2nd of May to the 20th to clear the mess.
 
I wonder if the Allies, now they have some more explosives to play around with, will have a go at blocking the Corinth Canal.


I think the big take-away from that play-out will be the retaining of the Fallschirmjäger as a parachute unit, rather than just an elite infantry unit.

Although I love Derwit's rational logic, the thing that is hard to overestimate is the amount of BS flowing inside Nazi command structures overstating how magnificent they were. In that context, until they are actually halted the flow of information going up the chain of command to Hitler will be overwhelmingly positive and as such I can completely see the Germans still committing the Fallschirmjager to Crete in 100% confidence they would sweep away any defenders due to their superior genetics, intellect, tactics, training and discipline.

So rationally I completely agree with Derwit. But with the Nazis, I'm just not positive that their natural overconfidence won't send those units right into a meat grinder.

The only other thing that may save them is if the planners for Barbarossa in evaluating their plan see an opportunity to use the fallschirmjager somewhere in the USSR that they believe takes precedence. As an example they could choose to use them to seize key points throughout the Baltics to accelerate the seizure of those nations as they push towards Leningrad.

As always it will be fascinating to see what butterflies Allan chooses to weave into his wonderful story....
 
The only other thing that may save them is if the planners for Barbarossa in evaluating their plan see an opportunity to use the fallschirmjager somewhere in the USSR that they believe takes precedence. As an example they could choose to use them to seize key points throughout the Baltics to accelerate the seizure of those nations as they push towards Leningrad.
That's a very interesting scenario as an alternative to A Bridge Too Far!
 

marathag

Banned
If you're just attempting to get "deflection" prior to impact on the primary armour, does it really need to be that precise?
For the gory details
The US Navy after WWI, when determining the resistance of two laminated plates of the same type, simply assumed that the upper plate was reduced by 30% - was only 70% as strong - as to its thickness and then physically added to the complete thickness of the lower plate. For example, if the upper plate was 5" STS and the lower plate was 2" STS, the total effective deck thickness, regardless of the angle of impact or projectile type, was T(deck) = (0.7)(5) + 2 = 5.5" compared to 7" of total weight. This is quite a loss of strength for the weight, so there had better be a very good reason for not using a solid 7" plate
 
But what then, perhaps a well earned retirement for the Matilda 1's in the tropical sun of Malaya
, to see out the rest of their service quietly policing the Empire 😉
I think it more likely for the Ol' Pom-Poms to get their 'retirement' right there on Crete: the weather's nice; food's decent; travel ranges are short; chance of bombings are fairly low around the air fields they'd likely protect; sounds like a nice second-line job for tank crews.
"On holiday, sweating in a metal box" - memoirs of a British Tankie on Crete.

Plus, you don't have to expend any effort moving them halfway round the world when they can still be useful right there.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
For the gory details
The US Navy after WWI, when determining the resistance of two laminated plates of the same type, simply assumed that the upper plate was reduced by 30% - was only 70% as strong - as to its thickness and then physically added to the complete thickness of the lower plate. For example, if the upper plate was 5" STS and the lower plate was 2" STS, the total effective deck thickness, regardless of the angle of impact or projectile type, was T(deck) = (0.7)(5) + 2 = 5.5" compared to 7" of total weight. This is quite a loss of strength for the weight, so there had better be a very good reason for not using a solid 7" plate

So adding a 2" plate ontop of 5" is better than adding a 5" plate on top of 2"??
 
So adding a 2" plate ontop of 5" is better than adding a 5" plate on top of 2"??
Thin backplates will buckle more easily under stress than thick ones. This was also true even with Cold War spaced/composite layouts: the 80-105-20 layout on the T-64 performed worse than 20-105-80 because the backplate would buckle under the displacement of the first plate and the textolite interlayer.
 
...We managed to do that OTL, despite the German's best efforts.

We sank a wooden an 80 ton wooden barge on the west end and brought a major bridge down on the canal using explosives. Despite the Germans capturing the Bridge and the explosives. The idiots gathered all the explosives together and it got set off by a stray bullet IIRC.

It took them from the 2nd of May to the 20th to clear the mess.
And the Germans made a mess that took the USA more than 6 months to clear up. Plus the British only blew up the bridge, they didn't actually really block the canal properly.
 
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And the Germans made a mess that took the USA more than 6 months to clear up. Plus the Germans only blew up the bridge, they didn't actually really block the canal properly.
Drop 2 or 3 100 yard long stretches of cliff face and the bridges into the canal and Herman Ze German isn't going to be happy.
 

marathag

Banned
So adding a 2" plate ontop of 5" is better than adding a 5" plate on top of 2"??
But then you run into 'Overmatch' where the diameter of the incoming projectile gets closer to the thickness of the armor, the armor is less effective.

Except with capped AP, the first impact can damage/dislodge the cap, reducing the effectiveness of the incoming AP.

Some more history, for those interested
 
That's a very interesting scenario as an alternative to A Bridge Too Far!

I hereby offer unreserved use of the idea and concept in full or in part for any creative use for which you wish to apply it....as you are an incredibly gifted writer of wonderful creative fiction while I am a bit of git and often struggle with birthday card messages. 😁
 
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